Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course.
You musta learned from Adam.
He started it all.

Yep, I'm a chip off the ol' block, lol. :wink

 

[Iconoclast]

Dorothy Mae and I are serious.
But what do you mean by your last sentence??

Your answer here is an example;
I found your post# 177 to be very disappointing. the answer to that and the next posts were the ones that were deleted by hitting the wrong key. I will answer that now and demonstrate what I am saying.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You must do a lot of witnessing.
That's another aspect of reformed theology that's not understandable to me.

But we won't go there.

Let's go there.

I think they believe the way we do. People who are able to be saved will be saved whether or not we're involved in the process or not. I don't believe that someone else's salvation is dependent on whether or not I reach out to them. God will get to them one way or another. I just won't have any reward for labor I did not do in that part of the field and building of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Iconoclast

This is from post 135:
I have no need to end the conversation as it is shifting back to correcting caricatures caused by mixing up the words. You did not address Rom8:29-30 whom, them, whom , them, whom, them..ie, the persons not their actions.
I think I exegeted all of Romans 8:29-30.
Maybe not.
But I'll be happy to answer your above:


Romans 8:28-30 NASB
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
You want to know: Rom8:29-30 whom, them, whom , them, whom, them..ie, the persons not their actions.

Verse 28: God works everything to our benefit. We may even have a sickness in the family, or a death, but somehow He works this for our benefit. Us: Those who love God. Those who are called according to what God wants from them. Some are called to be pastors, some parents, some missionaries, etc. God has a purpose for our life. We truly have a purpose-filled life.

Verse 29: God foreknew those that would be accepting His Son and He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Foreknow means to know beforehand. Known before.
2 Peter 3:17 Peter tells his readers to be forewarned...warned beforehand.
Foretold: Told before
Foreknow: Know before

The people here being spoken of are those that will choose in the future to accept Jesus as Savior.
God knew who they would be before they accepted. God FOREKNEW.
Again, God is speaking about those that would love Him. They would be PREDESTINED to be conformed to His Son.
The predestination is not WHO, but WHAT. It is always WHAT or HOW, never a who.

Verse 30: These persons that were going to love God in the future, and those that had already loved Him in the past.
God also called. God called, or invited, all those that would accept Jesus. Those whom He called He also justified and then He also glorified. But glorified is something that is going to happen in the future -- so perhaps CALLED means something different. It can't be to salvation because they would already be saved. It leaves a question. This is why I said called in the future and IN THE PAST. It might mean those that were called in the past. Not sure.

Bump

Maybe others might have an opinion?
Jethro Bodine
JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's go there.

I think they believe the way we do. People who are able to be saved will be saved whether or not we're involved in the process or not. I don't believe that someone else's salvation is dependent on whether or not I reach out to them. God will get to them one way or another. I just won't have any reward for labor I did not do in that part of the field and building of God.

OK
As soon as dinner is up and going...
Soon.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's go there.

I think they believe the way we do. People who are able to be saved will be saved whether or not we're involved in the process or not. I don't believe that someone else's salvation is dependent on whether or not I reach out to them. God will get to them one way or another. I just won't have any reward for labor I did not do in that part of the field and building of God.

Oops!
Your last sentence sounds like meritorious work.

Please don't respond here.

 

[jasonc]

Evil is a big topic for me.
If God created evil , we're in the hands of a sadistic God.

If He didn't, where does it come from?

People come up with different ideas that don't make much sense to me. I've learned to leave it alone.

He controls it .God allowed it.that is the point you seem to miss.

Satan and angels can't be redeemed if they fall.yet Adam and eve bring fully free of sin choose it and so did Satan and his demons only man gets the chance to be saved .

Yet the fallen angels ,fear,are fully emotional and intellectual able to see God and also create and or invent things .these do things for evil but God choose to deny them mercy and allow some evil to affect man for his good length he choose to allow it.

If evil is just a mystery that God didn't know and has no power to control them he isn't God

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The question of predestination, the way Calvinists understand it, comes down to whether the soils in the Parable of the Sower were purposely designed beforehand by God to be able to sustain the word of God and bring it to fruition, or weren't purposely designed beforehand by God to be able to sustain the word of God and bring it to fruition.

Obviously, Calvinism says God does purposely decide ahead of time by design if a particular man's soil will be able to retain and bring to fruition the word of God. While non-Calvinistic thought says the potential for any one plot of soil to retain and bring to fruition the word of God when seeded and watered by God is an attribute of that person themselves as a created conscious spiritual being.

I italicized 'the way Calvinists understand it' because, IMO, Calvinism misunderstands what predestination actually is. What is predestined is not whether or not someone will be created to be able to believe, and not created to be able to believe, but rather what it is that God has predetermined for those who will believe.

29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son... Romans 8:29

What is predetermined is that the believers God knew beforehand would believe will be conformed to the image of Christ. The plan is what is predetermined, not who will participate in it. Though God does know ahead of time who will believe and participate in it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oops!
Your last sentence sounds like meritorious work.

Please don't respond here.

I will respond here because it's an easy answer.

The reward for labor in the field and building of God is not meritorious toward justification or salvation. It has nothing to do with that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans 8:28-30 NASB
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
You want to know: Rom8:29-30 whom, them, whom , them, whom, them..ie, the persons not their actions.

Verse 28: God works everything to our benefit. We may even have a sickness in the family, or a death, but somehow He works this for our benefit.

Okay

Us: Those who love God. Those who are called according to what God wants from them.

No...we are called to be saints day in day out. We are not called as sub-contractors, you do this job, then you are done.
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Some are called to be pastors, some parents, some missionaries, etc. God has a purpose for our life. We truly have a purpose-filled life.

once called to be saints, gifts differ,yes.

Verse 29: God foreknew those that would be accepting His Son

wrong use of foreknowledge.No one is called to "accept anything"
we are made accepted eph1;6

and He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Foreknow means to know beforehand. Known before.
2 Peter 3:17 Peter tells his readers to be forewarned...warned beforehand.
Foretold: Told before
Foreknow: Know before

TOTALLY IGNORING WHAT I EXPLAINED earlier Know is used of an intimate knowledge
Gen 4:4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son

Did Adam forget who his wife was and then remember? Adam knew his wife....Joseph knew not Mary until after the birth of Jesus

The people here being spoken of are those that will choose in the future to accept Jesus as Savior.

No such people exist. psalm 14:1-3...God chooses us.

God knew who they would be before they accepted. God FOREKNEW.
Again, God is speaking about those that would love Him. They would be PREDESTINED to be conformed to His Son.
The predestination is not WHO, but WHAT. It is always WHAT or HOW, never a who.

You could not have this any more wrong and unbiblical if you tried.This is completely anti scriptural.
It is not just that you do not agree with me as DM suggests...it is because it goes directly against the text. It is the people who are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus...not the what...their actions as you suggest.
The discussion comes to a halt, when you directly contradict a scriptural statement.

Verse 30: These persons that were going to love God in the future, and those that had already loved Him in the past.
God also called. God called, or invited, all those that would accept Jesus.

Same here...God first loved us...you put the cart before the horse once again...bringing the discussion to a halt.
God loved us while sinners, he died for us [the elect]. We were completely sinful and enemies of God...not people in love with God.

Those whom He called He also justified and then He also glorified. But glorified is something that is going to happen in the future -- so perhaps CALLED means something different. It can't be to salvation because they would already be saved.

No understanding of this and in fact you directly contradict biblical teaching. they call this the golden chain of redemption for a reason. All 5 things are true of the individuals in view.

It leaves a question. This is why I said called in the future and IN THE PAST. It might mean those that were called in the past. Not sure.

2tim1:9 which you already tried to explain away provides the answer.
Your rejection of both the Covenant of Redemption, and the Covenant of Grace answer also...but you reject them as not existing so you have to create a made up fabricated reality instead.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The people here being spoken of are those that will choose in the future to accept Jesus as Savior.
God knew who they would be before they accepted. God FOREKNEW.
Again, God is speaking about those that would love Him. They would be PREDESTINED to be conformed to His Son.
The predestination is not WHO, but WHAT. It is always WHAT or HOW, never a who.

You mean I didn't have to type all this same stuff because you already did?

 

[Iconoclast]

The question of predestination, the way Calvinists understand it, comes down to whether the soils in the Parable of the Sower were purposely designed beforehand by God to be able to sustain the word of God and bring it to fruition, or weren't purposely designed beforehand by God to be able to sustain the word of God and bring it to fruition.

Obviously, Calvinism says God does purposely decide ahead of time by design if a particular man's soil will be able to retain and bring to fruition the word of God. While non-Calvinistic thought says the potential for any one plot of soil to retain and bring to fruition the word of God when seeded and watered by God is an attribute of that person themselves as a created conscious spiritual being.

I italicized 'the way Calvinists understand it' because, IMO, Calvinism misunderstands what predestination actually is. What is predestined is not whether or not someone will be created to be able to believe, and not created to be able to believe, but rather what it is that God has predetermined for those who will believe.

29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son... Romans 8:29

What is predetermined is that the believers God knew beforehand would believe will be conformed to the image of Christ. The plan is what is predetermined, not who will participate in it. Though God does know ahead of time who will believe and participate in it.

Hello JB,
It is not an either-or, but a both and.
I will do a thread on Romans 8 :29-30...known worldwide as the golden chain of redemption.
For you JB:

I enjoy this study each week, past studies can be found on the site.
This is mainstream Calvinism

 

[GodsGrace]

He controls it .God allowed it.that is the point you seem to miss.

Satan and angels can't be redeemed if they fall.yet Adam and eve bring fully free of sin choose it and so did Satan and his demons only man gets the chance to be saved .

Yet the fallen angels ,fear,are fully emotional and intellectual able to see God and also create and or invent things .these do things for evil but God choose to deny them mercy and allow some evil to affect man for his good length he choose to allow it.

If evil is just a mystery that God didn't know and has no power to control them he isn't God

Every Christisn believes God ALLOWS evil.
But He didn't CREATE it.

 

[jasonc]

Every Christisn believes God ALLOWS evil.
But He didn't CREATE it.

Same with the reformed .

 

[Consecrated Life]

My thoughts are equal to God's thoughts is the underlying premise / disillusionment of it.
This is a manifest desire of the flesh, not the desire of the spirit.
A resentment of God being God.
The proof of it being a manifestation of the flesh not faith it is a theology completely void of furthering the Kingdom in it's purpose.
If all have been predestined why did Jesus have to personally intervene and pray that Peter's predestination would not fail ?
Did God forget to double click His mouse when He set Peter's predestination in stone ?


Luk 22:31
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luk 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

 

[GodsGrace]

My thoughts are equal to God's thoughts is the underlying premise / disillusionment of it.
This is a manifest desire of the flesh, not the desire of the spirit.
A resentment of God being God.
The proof of it being a manifestation of the flesh not faith it is a theology completely void of furthering the Kingdom in it's purpose.
If all have been predestined why did Jesus have to personally intervene and pray that Peter's predestination would not fail ?
Did God forget to double click His mouse when He set Peter's predestination in stone ?


Luk 22:31
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luk 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

I've made your point many times.
By the many statements that Jesus made, it would seem the He didn't get the memo.
If God did the choosing, there would be many things He would not have stated.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I've made your point many times.
By the many statements that Jesus made, it would seem the He didn't get the memo.
If God did the choosing, there would be many things He would not have stated.

True that .
And I should have specified "predestination" as this thread's author misunderstands it , not as Paul understood it !

 

[Iconoclast]

A resentment of God being God.

This is the exact way reformed believers see non-reformed. They resent God is absolutely sovereign over men. It kills their idol of the philosophical concept of free will.

The proof of it being a manifestation of the flesh not faith it is a theology completely void of furthering the Kingdom in it's purpose

Reformed teaching is all about Kingdom growth and living

.
If all have been predestined why did Jesus have to personally intervene and pray that Peter's predestination would not fail ?

Whatsoever comes to pass is ordained by God and will unfold as God has designed.
Salvation happens and unfolds in real time, using the means of grace.

Did God forget to double click His mouse when He set Peter's predestination in stone ?

A profane comment in reference to God

Luk 22:31
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luk 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

Prayer is ordained as a means of grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

True that .
And I should have specified "predestination" as this thread's author misunderstands it , not as Paul understood it !

Yes, they are indeed different.
One is for the WHO
and one is for the HOW.

 

[GodsGrace]

Same with the reformed .

Who should I believe??
According to Sproul, Piper and MaCarthur God created evil.
According to Calvin also.

How many times do I have to post this?
Could you post something to the contrary so I could understand where I'm going wrong?


Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.
John Calvin's Institutes
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3




I concede more--that thieves and murderers, and other evil-doers, are instruments of Divine Providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute the Judgments which he has resolved to inflict.
Book 1
Chapter 17
Paragraph 5




By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5