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Predestination

Dorothy Mae said:
It was a kind of joke where it’s easy to say his deleting the post was ordained by God (out of mercy.) The point is those who espouse that God micromanages the universe don’t accept that events they don’t like are also ordained.
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Did you check out post 277?
Any comment?
 
wondering said:
I don't know what 1 Cor 15 has to do with your explanation of ordain and predestine.

Here's what you wrote:

Whatsoever comes to pass,has been ordained to come to pass, or it would never happen. Not one molecule moves without it's movement being ordained by God.
predestined is used of the elect being predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son.

OK, so ORDAINED means what has been ordained to come to pass (or it would never happen).
And, you say, predestined is used of the elect being conformed to the image of the Son.


I agree 100% with what predestine means in the NT.
However, ordained means exactly the same thing.
If God had not ordained something, then it would never happen.

I'm not getting the terms mixed up between the biblical and the secular.
Predestine means the same.
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I agree with you here. Your thinking is correct. The difference is negligible.
wondering said:
IOW, you can't make up your own definition of words.
Here's how The Confession described the word ORDAIN:



God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter III
Paragraph 1

It states that God ORDAINED whatsoever comes to pass....
this is the same as saying that God predestined everything that will happen.
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I agree. The WM statement is a contradiction, of course.
wondering said:
So PREDESTINE could apply only to men...OK
BUT ORDAIN means exactly the same as predestine.
If God ORDAINS something to happen - it most surely will.

So you can't take one word and let it be the reason we don't understand each other.
When I say God predestined, I mean ordained. It's the same!
Click to expand...
I agree
wondering said:
OR

No matter how you want to use words:

GOD ORDAINED EVERYTHING.
GOD PREDEESTINED ALL MEN.

No matter how you turn it, GOD ORDAINED AND PREDESTINED EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE before the beginning of time.
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That’s the WMC position. I don’t see that in scripture but it is their position.
wondering said:
So,, in affect, God ordered everything that was to happen and ordered everyone to either heaven or hell according to the good pleasure of His will.
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That’s the logical outcome.
wondering said:
No matter what words one wishes to use, it's God that is the first cause of everything.
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I don’t say that of Him as He doesn’t say that of Him and I prefer to let Him define/describe Himself.

I’m not sure if the above is your position or his. Let me say first off, that one cannot say that because God ordained some matters, He therefore ordained all. I only need a few or really ONE example of that which He did NOT ordain to knock the structure completely down.

Here is a strong one: NIV
“They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.” Not only did God NOT ordain the above, He didn’t even think of it. There’s also the description of God being grieved over the sin of man before the flood. God didn’t ordain that which would deeply grieve Him. There is lots more. So the assumption that God ordains everything or it wouldn’t have happened is simply not how any Bible writer nor God saw the matter. It’s not true. One can nevertheless think it is so.

The reformed position is easy to show up as deeply flawed but it’s not enjoyable.
 
wondering said:
I don't know what 1 Cor 15 has to do with your explanation of ordain and predestine.

Here's what you wrote:

Whatsoever comes to pass,has been ordained to come to pass, or it would never happen. Not one molecule moves without it's movement being ordained by God.
predestined is used of the elect being predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son.

OK, so ORDAINED means what has been ordained to come to pass (or it would never happen).
And, you say, predestined is used of the elect being conformed to the image of the Son.


I agree 100% with what predestine means in the NT.
However, ordained means exactly the same thing.
If God had not ordained something, then it would never happen.

I'm not getting the terms mixed up between the biblical and the secular.
Predestine means the same.

IOW, you can't make up your own definition of words.
Here's how The Confession described the word ORDAIN:



God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter III
Paragraph 1

It states that God ORDAINED whatsoever comes to pass....
this is the same as saying that God predestined everything that will happen.

So PREDESTINE could apply only to men...OK
BUT ORDAIN means exactly the same as predestine.
If God ORDAINS something to happen - it most surely will.

So you can't take one word and let it be the reason we don't understand each other.
When I say God predestined, I mean ordained. It's the same!

OR

No matter how you want to use words:

GOD ORDAINED EVERYTHING.
GOD PREDEESTINED ALL MEN.

No matter how you turn it, GOD ORDAINED AND PREDESTINED EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE before the beginning of time.

So,, in affect, God ordered everything that was to happen and ordered everyone to either heaven or hell according to the good pleasure of His will.

No matter what words one wishes to use, it's God that is the first cause of everything.
Click to expand...
False...but that is what you want. You desire to be a free spirit.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
I agree with you here. Your thinking is correct. The difference is negligible.

I agree. The WM statement is a contradiction, of course.

I agree

That’s the WMC position. I don’t see that in scripture but it is their position.

That’s the logical outcome.

I don’t say that of Him as He doesn’t say that of Him and I prefer to let Him define/describe Himself.

I’m not sure if the above is your position or his.
Click to expand...

I was stating the reformed position.
Thanks for catching that.

Dorothy Mae said:
Let me say first off, that one cannot say that because God ordained some matters, He therefore ordained all. I only need a few or really ONE example of that which He did NOT ordain to knock the structure completely down.

Here is a strong one: NIV
“They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.” Not only did God NOT ordain the above, He didn’t even think of it. There’s also the description of God being grieved over the sin of man before the flood. God didn’t ordain that which would deeply grieve Him. There is lots more. So the assumption that God ordains everything or it wouldn’t have happened is simply not how any Bible writer nor God saw the matter. It’s not true. One can nevertheless think it is so.

The reformed position is easy to show up as deeply flawed but it’s not enjoyable.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
Thanks for the response.
 
Iconoclast said:
False...but that is what you want. You desire to be a free spirit.
Click to expand...
Kinda makes me feel like you didn't even read it.
Or you did and have no reply.

There's a lot of logic in what I posted.
Logic does not seem to me to be a part of reformed theology.
Of course, what is logical to one person may not be to the next.

I guess we're done.
 
wondering said:
Kinda makes me feel like you didn't even read it.
Or you did and have no reply.

There's a lot of logic in what I posted.
Logic does not seem to me to be a part of reformed theology.
Of course, what is logical to one person may not be to the next.

I guess we're done.
Click to expand...
It was fun while it lasted.
I did read it.
I have offered replies in several posts previously that you have ignored or rejected.
Not a problem.
Now back to my regularly scheduled posting.
 
Iconoclast said:
It was fun while it lasted.
I did read it.
I have offered replies in several posts previously that you have ignored or rejected.
Not a problem.
Now back to my regularly scheduled posting.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify I,
I'm not disappearing.
Just want you to know that I did NOT IGNORE any post of yours.
If I missed one it was purely by mistake.
Keep on posting!
:)
 
All men were considered as dead and fallen in Adam. The world is condemned already. if God does not intervene all perish.
God was not caught by surprise at man's fall into the realm of sin and death.
God's covenant is His provision for all believers throughout time. it is certain because God has elected out from all fallen mankind those He Has designed to save. He did not have to save anyone. He saved all He could wisely save according to His eternal purpose.
he does not try and save.....he saves all he plans to....not one is lost.
If God passes over others...he has a Holy and just reason to do so.
the fact that we see in scripture that multitudes perish ...as well as multitudes being saved...is God's revelation to us and we are to understand why it is Just and righteous.

For.......Jesus declares He came to do the Father's will....then he tells us what is the Father's will; that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Again as long as this is in the bible...all who reject this biblical teaching are
1]untaught
2] wrong
3] mislead
4]false teachers
5]heretics
6]apostates
7] any combination of the above.
 
Last edited:
A friend of mine posted this;
1. God has a decretive will which cannot be resisted and surely accomlishes all it purposes.
Proverbs 19:21; Isaiah 14:24-27; Isaiah 46:10-11; Psalms 115:3; Psalms 135:6; Romans 9:19.
2. The Bible states generally that God's decree is universal. Daniel 4:34-35; Romans 8:28; Romans 11:36; Ephesians 1:11. The Bible also states specifically that all classes of events are inluded in that decree.
(a) Good and evil events. Isaiah 45:7; Amos 3:6; Job 1:21; Jeremiah 15:21.
(b) Snful acts. Genesis 50:20; 2 Samuel 16:10-11; 2 Samuel 24:1 (cf. 1 Chronicles 21:1); Job 1:11-12; Luke 22:22; Acts of the Apostles 2:23; Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28.
(c) Free acts of men. Proverbs 16:1; Proverbs 16:9; Proverbs 21:1; Romans 8:28; Romans 8:27-28.
(d) 'Chance' occurrences. 1 Kings 22:28-34; Job 5:6; Job 36:32; Proverbs 16:33; Jonah 1:7.
(e) Details of our lives. Job 14:5; Psalms 139:16; Matthew 10:29-30; James 4:15.
(f) Affiars of the nations. 2 Kings 5:1; Psalms 75:1-7; Proverbs 21:31; Daniel 2:21.
(g) Final destination of the wicked. 1 Samuel 2:25; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 9:17; 1 Peter 2:8;
Jude 4.
3. Nothing save God Himself conditions His decree. No one counselled Him when He decreed. Isaiah 40::13-14; Romans 11:34; 1 Corinthians 2:16.

Much of the foregoing has been gleaned from A Modern Exposition of the 1689 Baptist Confession of faith by Samuel Waldron (ISBN 0-85234-340-X.
 
pt2;
I now move to the second proposition: that God is not the Author of sin.
The Confession teaches that although God decrees sin, He is not the Author of sin. This teaching is based on 'the liberty and contingency of second causes' mentioned in the paragraph of the Confession that I quoted above. God is not the Author of sin because He does not directly cause it to happen. It is the responsibility of the second causes that willingly engage in it.. So we read in 2 Samuel 24:1 that God decreed that David should sinfully number Israel, but in 1 Chronicles 21:1 we learn that the decree was not carried out by God the Holy Spirit but by Satan. Also, when we consider the passages that speak of God decreeing sin (Genesis 50:20; 2 Samuel 24:1; Acts of the Apostles 2:23; Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28), it is clear that God's motives in so decreeing are entirely pure. In the first, third and fourth, it is graciously redemptive; in the second it is justly retributive.
This means that man's liberty is one that is not contradicted by its being entirely subject the the divine decree. Freedom has been defined as 'the absence of external coercion.' If someone is not forced by any power outside of himself to do something other than what he wants to do, then surely he is free.(cf. James 1:13-15)? But I will deal with 'free will' in more detail in my next post.
 
wondering said:
Kinda makes me feel like you didn't even read it.
Or you did and have no reply.

There's a lot of logic in what I posted.
Logic does not seem to me to be a part of reformed theology.
Of course, what is logical to one person may not be to the next.

I guess we're done.
Click to expand...
I agree. But logic is not subjective. The problem with reformed theology is the contradictions one must swallow. This has an impact on the mind of those who embrace it which it is hard for them to see.
 
Iconoclast said:
pt2;
I now move to the second proposition: that God is not the Author of sin.
The Confession teaches that although God decrees sin, He is not the Author of sin. This teaching is based on 'the liberty and contingency of second causes' mentioned in the paragraph of the Confession that I quoted above. God is not the Author of sin because He does not directly cause it to happen. It is the responsibility of the second causes that willingly engage in it.. So we read in 2 Samuel 24:1 that God decreed that David should sinfully number Israel, but in 1 Chronicles 21:1 we learn that the decree was not carried out by God the Holy Spirit but by Satan. Also, when we consider the passages that speak of God decreeing sin (Genesis 50:20; 2 Samuel 24:1; Acts of the Apostles 2:23; Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28), it is clear that God's motives in so decreeing are entirely pure. In the first, third and fourth, it is graciously redemptive; in the second it is justly retributive.
This means that man's liberty is one that is not contradicted by its being entirely subject the the divine decree. Freedom has been defined as 'the absence of external coercion.' If someone is not forced by any power outside of himself to do something other than what he wants to do, then surely he is free.(cf. James 1:13-15)? But I will deal with 'free will' in more detail in my next post.
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A perfect example of my point. "God decrees sin, He is not the Author of sin." This is self-contradictory and cannot both be true. There are always a lot of words (chaff) to cover up this obvious illogical position. As I have said, those who teach this or even hold this view, will be read their words before the throne of God and have to give an answer for the position that God purposely "decreed that man sins." If I were the judge, I would ask the man which sins did God decree. And they will have to look into the eyes of that loving, pure and holy Being and tell him to his face that they believe that he decreed some awful sin. That will not be a pleasant experience.

(Btw, I recommend everyone consider what they claim God does and run it by God Himself as to what He says to their representation (or misrepensentation) of Him.
 
Iconoclast said:
False...but that is what you want. You desire to be a free spirit.
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It would be better if you dropped the "you are....." in your responses when faced with reasons you cannot refute. They are personal attacks. Focus on defending the theology although hardly defensible, I admit. There are not many options available in many cases besides the personal attack.
 
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