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Discussion on UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

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… so God saves the spiritually bankrupt, like Wall Street bankers? :hysterical (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)😉
Being poor in spirit has nothing to do with spiritual bankruptcy. Being poor in spirit is a matter of understanding that we don't really own anything,

though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2Cor.8:9
 
Being poor in spirit has nothing to do with spiritual bankruptcy. Being poor in spirit is a matter of understanding that we don't really own anything,

though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2Cor.8:9
It was a pun.
 
Does UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION mean that God has no conditions to salvation? Can one be saved without faith? Without repentance? Without being baptized three times by someone that can trace their pedigree back to an Apostle?

[That was a trick question. The answer to the first three is “No”, but the answer to the last question is “Yes” … I’ve just had a few arguments with a certain Christian Sect that teaches incorrect baptisms are invalid and negate your salvation … a teaching that really pisses me off.]

Scripture is clear that God decrees conditions for salvation - like placing your trust in Jesus Christ, for one. Those are conditions for JUSTIFICATION. The Doctrine of Election is something else and speaks of a much narrower scope.

Romans 9:15-16 [NKJV]​
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

SINCE (not “if”, God already said so) God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and it does not depend on what mankind “wills” (desires) or “runs” (strives to do) but the mercy of God is given based on the will of God … “On what basis does God ELECT (choose) some people to be saved?

R.C. Sproul prefers the term SOVEREIGN ELECTION because God’s choice is based on God’s Sovereignty.
vous et je ne sais pas.
 
vous et je ne sais pas.
Neither do we Reformed.

However there seem two broad “logical” possibilities that are mutually exclusive:
We are ELECT (saved) …
  1. Because we deserve it (somehow and for whatever reason).
  2. In spite of the fact that we do not deserve it (somehow and for whatever reason).
Option 1 is CONDITIONAL (we met SOME condition).
Option 2 is UNCONDITIONAL (not because of ANY condition that WE met).
(ELECTION is from a biblical term and it is just a fact that the saints are called God’s “ELECT”).
 
It was a pun.
I like a good pun as much as the next guy, but not when it involves the sacrifice of Christ, which includes how he conducted himself as a poor servant, instead of mankinds Owner.
A guy once spit on me in a bar. He woke up missing his two front teeth. When I think of sins like that, what our dear Lord bore, it staggers me.
 
Being poor in spirit has nothing to do with spiritual bankruptcy. Being poor in spirit is a matter of understanding that we don't really own anything,

though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2Cor.8:9
Only the regenerate are poor in spirit, the natural man is proud and dead to God. Its when God regenerates one of His elect and gives them a new spiritual nature does one become poor in Spirit, its a work of God in a person that causes them to be poor in Spirit, or meek, which is a fruit of the Spirit of regeneration Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
 
Only the regenerate are poor in spirit, the natural man is proud and dead to God.
Its when God regenerates one of His elect and gives them a new spiritual nature does one become poor in Spirit, its a work of God in a person that causes them to be poor in Spirit, or meek, which is a fruit of the Spirit of regeneration Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
By "natural man", Paul means men who are only concerned with fleshly desire, but fleshly desire isn't the only thing we observe in human beings.

Calvanists ignore the "natural affection" (Rom.1:31) God created all people with, such as the godly love parents and children have for one another.

Calvanists ignore those seeds God planted within all people, instead teaching the false belief that we inherited nothing good from God through our parents.

Our Savior instructed people to become as children, because children, properly nurtured, bear the fruit of those seeds.

Calvanists believe people enter this world as unmerciful, proud backbiters, but Paul was only describing people who forget God, which is why he tells us to teach our children the truth.

Heresy only makes sense to those who believe God ever looked on his own Son with contempt. It's the worst lie ever committed against the gospel of Christ.
 
By "natural man", Paul means men who are only concerned with fleshly desire, but fleshly desire isn't the only thing we observe in human beings.

Calvanists ignore the "natural affection" (Rom.1:31) God created all people with, such as the godly love parents and children have for one another.

Calvanists ignore those seeds God planted within all people, instead teaching the false belief that we inherited nothing good from God through our parents.

Our Savior instructed people to become as children, because children, properly nurtured, bear the fruit of those seeds.

Calvanists believe people enter this world as unmerciful, proud backbiters, but Paul was only describing people who forget God, which is why he tells us to teach our children the truth.

Heresy only makes sense to those who believe God ever looked on his own Son with contempt. It's the worst lie ever committed against the gospel of Christ.
By nature simply means the unregenerate, thats how we all are coming out of our mother.
 
I like a good pun as much as the next guy, but not when it involves the sacrifice of Christ, which includes how he conducted himself as a poor servant, instead of mankinds Owner.
That would ring truer if that was what you were talking about when I made the pun. (you were discussing the condition of the people, not Jesus). Now you are just "holier-than-thou" posturing ... the sin of PRIDE. 🤪
 
That would ring truer if that was what you were talking about when I made the pun. (you were discussing the condition of the people, not Jesus). Now you are just "holier-than-thou" posturing ... the sin of PRIDE. 🤪
LOL
Journeyman is not the one.
We have a member here that states he never sins.

Now, THAT'S pride!
 
That would ring truer if that was what you were talking about when I made the pun. (you were discussing the condition of the people, not Jesus).
Yes, I was referring to your apparent belief that before you were chosen by God, had you sat on any jury and convicted a man because of false witnesses...but then later found out he was innocent... you wouldn't see the injustice in it...or feel sorry about what was done to that man.
Now you are just "holier-than-thou" posturing ... the sin of PRIDE. 🤪
How foolish to say any believer has pride for seeing his own sin no different than pounding nails into the hamds of God.
 
Yes, I was referring to your apparent belief that before you were chosen by God, had you sat on any jury and convicted a man because of false witnesses...but then later found out he was innocent... you wouldn't see the injustice in it...or feel sorry about what was done to that man.

How foolish to say any believer has pride for seeing his own sin no different than pounding nails into the hamds of God.
Let’s check …
God chooses people who are poor in spirit, regardless of wealth, as Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Job, etc. were wealthy men, but they considered themselves poor, as our Lord did. Being financially poor is no guarantee of salvation.
… I don’t see the connection between your post and what you claim about it, myself. :shrug
 
I don’t use the word Trinity because it’s unbiblical.


I use the word Godhead.

Likewise I tend to s the scriptures instead of Bible.

I only use “theology” as a facetious reference.


I don’t think I have ever used Glorification.





JLB
God head is an old English word.
LOL
Journeyman is not the one.
We have a member here that states he never sins.

Now, THAT'S pride!
I know that one
 
Let’s check …

… I don’t see the connection between your post and what you claim about it, myself. :shrug
You don't see the connection, because like you and me (if we're honest with ourselves) and the rest of mankind (because we're all sinners in need of Gods' grace) the Patriarchs didn't need extraordinary knowledge to know that condemning the innocent is displeasing to God. It's a matter of the common sense God gives all men.
So if you reexamine the Bible this way, you'll understand perfectly how our Savior

wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us Col.2:14

Not by being punished asscoring to Moses law, but by not enforcing Moses law against those breaking it. Breaking it by the sins committed against himself, the Judge of all mankind.
 
You don't see the connection, because like you and me (if we're honest with ourselves) and the rest of mankind (because we're all sinners in need of Gods' grace) the Patriarchs didn't need extraordinary knowledge to know that condemning the innocent is displeasing to God. It's a matter of the common sense God gives all men.
So if you reexamine the Bible this way, you'll understand perfectly how our Savior

wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us Col.2:14

Not by being punished asscoring to Moses law, but by not enforcing Moses law against those breaking it. Breaking it by the sins committed against himself, the Judge of all mankind.
:eek
 
Anyway, back on topic … :topic

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION:
God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save. - R.C. Sproul

GOD HIMSELF CHOSE:
  • John 1:12-13 [NKJV] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
  • Mark 13:20 [NKJV] "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

CHOSEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD:
  • Ephesians 1:3-6 [NKJV] “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
  • Revelation 13:8 [NKJV] “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
  • Revelation 17:8 [NKJV] "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

NOT BECAUSE OF THEM, BUT BECAUSE OF GOD’S SOVEREIGN WILL:
  • Romans 9:10-13 [NKJV] And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, [even] by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
  • Romans 9:16 [NKJV] “So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
  • Romans 10:20 [NKJV] But Isaiah is very bold and says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me."
  • 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 [NKJV] “But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.
  • 2 Timothy 1:8-11 [NKJV] “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

GOD CHOSE TO SAVE SOME AND LEAVE OTHERS TO THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR SIN:
  • Exodus 33:19 [NKJV] Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
  • Deuteronomy 7:6-8 [NKJV] "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”
  • Romans 9:10-24
  • Acts 13:48 [NKJV] “Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
  • 1 Peter 2:8 [NKJV] and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
 
Anyway, back on topic … :topic

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION:
God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save. - R.C. Sproul
to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified Lk.18:14
 
Isaiah 66:1-3 [KJV]
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
  • Who God is.

2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
  • What God is looking for.

3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
  • What God actually finds (hypocrisy).
 
Luke 18:9-14 [KJV]
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
  • A parable: a fictional story … because without God, people do not come to Him unaided.
Here is God’s evaluation of the real people of the real nation:

Romans 3:9-12 [KJV]
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 
Isaiah 66:1-3 [KJV]
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
  • Who God is.

2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
  • What God is looking for.

3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
  • What God actually finds (hypocrisy).
Yes here's the problem. God is calling them hypocrites, because they won't do what God said. In a parallel passage, God says,

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD Isa.1:11

Then God says something very strange,

When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Is.1:12

Actually, God required the sacrifices in the Torah. So what's the problem?

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
God regarded their sacrifice as murder, because the offerer treated the sacrifice like an unclean animal (dog, swine.)
So God regarded their prayer (incense) as being offered to an idol.

The reason is simple. The sacrifice God ordained was for the purpose of causing repentance in the heart of the sinner. Here's Gods' cure,,

Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Isa.1:16-17

It's stunning. After Jesus was treated like dog, God says, "Come now, let us reason together..." vs.18
 
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