Discussion on UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

[atpollard]

Once again … each scripture verse takes us further down yet another rabbit hole.

at this point, TOTAL DEPRAVITY has been presented and that horse beaten to death.
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION has been presented and PRESENTED AGAIN (after chasing several rabbit trails).

So I am ready to move on to LIMITED ATONEMENT in a new topic.

If anyone wants to address what I actually posted, then I will respond to this discussion of Unconditional Election for a little longer (until it approaches 100 posts). If you just want to say “taint so” and post your counterpoint, then have at it with my blessings. I said what I came to say … I explained what “Unconditional Election” really means and presented the scripture that we Reformed believe teaches it. As long as you understand what we believe and reject our actual beliefs, I am satisfied. My “beef” is with strawmen arguments that pretend to be Reformed Theology and teach things that we do not believe.

If anyone wants to discuss LIMITED ATONEMENT, then I will be over there.
I am just slowly working my way through TULIP.

 

[Alfred Persson]

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION:
God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save. - R.C. Sproul

That is as good a working definition of Unconditional Election as any I know, and here is as good a Scripture to start a discussion with as any:

Romans 9:10-13 [NKJV]​

10 And not only [this], but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, [even] by our father Isaac 11 (for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."​

First, a brief digression (if you will permit me). Spare me any arguments about whether Paul is discussing the individuals or nations.

1. The context referring to their birth and their mother makes a discussion of nations nonsense.
2. Even if Paul was discussing nations, it changes NOTHING in the points that Paul made … the decision was made BY GOD for THE PURPOSE OF GOD and had nothing to do with “deserved” for either individual (or nation).

So focus on the Scripture in its context and spare me pointless arguments about nations that will not change what Paul actually said.

CONDITIONAL ELECTION:
It might not be a terrible thing to present the opposite view, Conditional Election, right up front for an immediate contrast:

Many (most?) people believe that in eternity past, God looked ahead and saw who would say yes and who would say no to the gospel. Based on this prior knowledge of who would believe in Jesus Christ, God elects to save them. This is conditional election: God distributes His electing grace on the basis of a foreseen condition that human beings themselves meet.​

Romans 9:10-13 only proves election had nothing to do with their acts in the fallen realm, it does not apply to acts done in the "unfallen realm that existed in the Mind of God BEFORE He created".

Romans 8:29 says God foreknew all who loved Him and these He predestined. Notice Peter says election is according to the foreknowledge of God:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1-2 NKJ)

So it was conditional, only those who loved God freely, by their own Free Will choice, were elected.

No way God give Satan the victory over even one of those He foreknew loves Him, therefore He predestined them to be conformed to His Son and be saved:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:28-9:1 NKJ)


Election is "unconditional" only from the perspective AFTER God created. BEFORE God created He foreknew those who "in the unfallen realm" truly loved Him for who He is, after their free will choice is made. These God elected unto salvation.

The selection is not based upon what these do in the "fallen realm" after it corrupted and deceived them, so it is unconditional only from that aspect.


Predestinating His Beloved unto salvation is the only way God would create.

God would not have created if that would cause the eternal death of one who loved Him in His foreknowledge, then He would mourn them for all eternity. A deal breaker for God, an intolerable result.

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional or Unconditional or Both?

When faced with a contradiction in statements, rather than one or the other being "false" context might reveal both statements are "true". Scripture says Divine Election is both Conditional, and Unconditional. How can both be "true"?

endtimenews.net

 

[brightfame52]

alfred p

So it was conditional, only those who loved God freely, by their own Free Will choice, were elected.

Thats false, thats election/salvation by works, merit.

Unconditional election was decided before the individual was born, existed, so it could not have been based upon anything foreseen of them after they were born to exist, thats contrary to the stated purpose of election Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

May God give you repentance from your false view of election, so you will acknowledge the Truth.

 

[Alfred Persson]

alfred p



Thats false, thats election/salvation by works, merit.

Unconditional election was decided before the individual was born, existed, so it could not have been based upon anything foreseen of them after they were born to exist, thats contrary to the stated purpose of election Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

May God give you repentance from your false view of election, so you will acknowledge the Truth.

I quoted Peter and Paul, scripture cannot be broken for tradition, including Protestant tradition:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1-2 NKJ)

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom. 8:28 NKJ)

Scripture never contradicts itself. As it says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God, it isn't "unconditional", something God foreknew was the criteria for choosing.

That something is not in us now, therefore Paul said its not because of anything we are or do now.

The only way to logically reconcile the "apparent contradiction" is to realize there are TWO versions of us, the uncreated unfallen version that existed in God's foreknowledge before He created, and the fallen version we are now.

Only those (unfallen version) God foreknew loved Him, were predestined unto salvation. But as we are "fallen versions" of ourselves, nothing in us now conditioned God's election.

Therefore, the absurd idea God arbitrarily chose with no regard of justice love or mercy, can be discarded. Such dark hideous theories should have no place in Christianity.

 

[brightfame52]

I quoted Peter and Paul, scripture cannot be broken for tradition, including Protestant tradition:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
(1 Pet. 1:1-2 NKJ)

You quoted them, but thats all you did right and you dont understand them one iota, your comments were your own, and they werent stated by Peter or Paul.

However Unconditional election occured before the foundation, and it wasnt conditioned upon forseeing people who didnt exist, thats foolish.

However Gods election or choice of people effects belief of the Truth instead of your false teaching that it was foreseen of God in them 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Same thing with Peter, Election is UNTO obedience not because of obedience, cant you read 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
But your false teaching is

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, because of your obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you,

May God have mercy on you and deliver you from false teaching friend

 

[Alfred Persson]

You quoted them, but thats all you did right and you dont understand them one iota, your comments were your own, and they werent stated by Peter or Paul.

However Unconditional election occured before the foundation, and it wasnt conditioned upon forseeing people who didnt exist, thats foolish.

However Gods election or choice of people effects belief of the Truth instead of your false teaching that it was foreseen of God in them 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Same thing with Peter, Election is UNTO obedience not because of obedience, cant you read 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
But your false teaching is

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, because of your obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you,

May God have mercy on you and deliver you from false teaching friend

Sir, you cannot ignore Peter's words in red and present your opinion as truth. I follow Scripture, not you.

Peter says you are wrong, election IS according to what God foreknew:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1-2 NKJ)

Scripture cannot be broken, even by Calvin. Or you.

 

[brightfame52]

The doctrine of unconditional election, simply stated, is the teaching that God had chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 some out of the fall of Adam to be the recipients of His grace and predestinated them unto eternal salvation in Christ before the world began.

Note: Eternal Salvation in Christ Jesus was always for Gods Elect 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Now Election is Unconditional God did not choose us because He “foreknew” that we would do good! That erroneous concept from mans fleshly mind is refuted here Rom 9:

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Also . Election took place before the worlds were made. The Lamb’s Book of Life is not being written in time. Every name that shall be found in that book when the world has been destroyed was written there before God created the universe.

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The Elect were given Grace in Christ Jesus according to the Purpose of Election before the world began 2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

If someone tells us that election is conditioned upon what God saw a person would do in time, that's a false teacher, believe them not, they are transgressing the doctrine of Gods Eternal Purpose of Election grounded in His Own Purpose !

 

[Alfred Persson]

The doctrine of unconditional election, simply stated, is the teaching that God had chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 some out of the fall of Adam to be the recipients of His grace and predestinated them unto eternal salvation in Christ before the world began.

Note: Eternal Salvation in Christ Jesus was always for Gods Elect 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Now Election is Unconditional God did not choose us because He “foreknew” that we would do good! That erroneous concept from mans fleshly mind is refuted here Rom 9:

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Also . Election took place before the worlds were made. The Lamb’s Book of Life is not being written in time. Every name that shall be found in that book when the world has been destroyed was written there before God created the universe.

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The Elect were given Grace in Christ Jesus according to the Purpose of Election before the world began 2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

If someone tells us that election is conditioned upon what God saw a person would do in time, that's a false teacher, believe them not, they are transgressing the doctrine of Gods Eternal Purpose of Election grounded in His Own Purpose !

You are objecting to something I do not teach and didn't say in my post. I agree with all those texts that say God's election wasn't based on anything we do or are in this life.

None of the scriptures you cited contradict my position at all, I agree with you they teach unconditional election.

BUT Scripture does not contradict itself. So when Peter says God elected according to His foreknowledge, like Sherlock Holmes we must deduce there is something more people aren't seeing. A perspective that Calvin and crew missed.

For both "conditional" (Peter) and "unconditional" (Paul) election to BOTH be true, there must be TWO VERSIONS of everyone alive.

There is the uncreated foreknown "unfallen version" that existed ONLY in the foreknowledge of God before He created.

AND the actual "fallen version" that came into existence we are now.

Then both Peter and Paul are right, they aren't contradicting each other.

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional or Unconditional or Both?

When faced with a contradiction in statements, rather than one or the other being "false" context might reveal both statements are "true". Scripture says Divine Election is both Conditional, and Unconditional. How can both be "true"?

endtimenews.net

Calvin and Arminius saw only the tail or trunk of the elephant, not the elephant's body. Simple inferential logic provides the unseen elephant's body. Peter refers to the unfallen version of ourselves, Paul the fallen version.