The Simple Key to Interpreting Revelation

[Paul Timothy]

So you think a theologian makes up his mind about something and then goes to study the OT and the NT and brings his own beliefs, as a scholar, to his studies?

Do you know of any theologian that used to be Protestant and became Catholic?
OR
V V?

What does this have to do with Protestant and Catholic?
And, yes most theologians have their mind made up before approaching Scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

What does this have to do with Protestant and Catholic?
And, yes most theologians have their mind made up before approaching Scripture.

OK.
No discussion to be had.
Your choice.

But, according to you, even theologians can't be trusted.

 

[Paul Timothy]

OK.
No discussion to be had.
Your choice.

But, according to you, even theologians can't be trusted.

I fail to see why you ask a question then say you do not want to talk.
What did my post have to do the Protestant or Catholic issues?
When did I say theologians can't be trusted?
Why not explain where you are coming from before jumping to conclusions.
You can trust someone... and be aware that there is a bias to every person.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you think a theologian makes up his mind about something and then goes to study the OT and the NT and brings his own beliefs, as a scholar, to his studies?

Do you know of any theologian that used to be Protestant and became Catholic?
OR
V V?

Theologians are the group
of people MOST likely to do this. This is easily tested. You show them strong evidence of an error in their theology, and they won’t listen.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

OK.
No discussion to be had.
Your choice.

But, according to you, even theologians can't be trusted.

They can be trusted to the same degree medical researchers and Fauci can be trusted.

 

[Paul Timothy]

So you think a theologian makes up his mind about something and then goes to study the OT and the NT and brings his own beliefs, as a scholar, to his studies?

Do you know of any theologian that used to be Protestant and became Catholic?
OR
V V?

Cameron Bertuzzi.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I don't want to make up a different version from what scripture teaches. Consider this,

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mt.22:31-32

The Patriarchs believed in the promises of Christ, the 1st resurrection.

The resurrection of the dead is not in doubt. A 'spirit resurrection' on earth is the error.

It's the same error of those that say Jesus' spirit was resurrected from the dead, and not His body.

It's simple. God only speaks of the resurrection of dead bodies, not of spirits.

What we sow in this world is what we reap in the next, so how we conduct ourselves now effects our final standing.

Exactly true.

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

We walk as He walked to attain to the resurrection of the dead. Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor any of His apostles ever said they were already resurrected nor already taking part in any resurrection. No man is resurrected while standing on earth. So far Jesus is the only resurrected man to do so. Next will only be the resurrected saints at the Lord's return into the air.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Paul talks of
Iheavenly places in Christ, Eph.1:3
Set your mind on things above, Col.3:2

The heavenly places are not places in heaven. They are in our hearts where Jesus dwells and rules.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

No man is living in heaven, while still walking on earth. Not even Jesus was in heaven with the Father, while walking on earth before and after His resurrection. Not until His ascension with a cloud, was He that came down from heaven, gone back into heaven.

No man on earth is also in heaven, especially not while in mortal flesh and blood. John was in heaven physically for a season. He was not living there. And the one gone to the third heaven, came back to earth again. He was not yet resurrected into places in heaven.

There are people believing in a spirit-resurrection, who claim to now have already inherited the kingdom of God in heaven.

That's the end result of believing in already having part in any resurrection, so that one's own personal resurrection is past. It's the strong delusion of a divine new age sort.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The writer of Hebrews didn't mean his listeners took a donkey ride to Jerusalem when he said, "you have come to Mount Zion" Heb.12:22

But ye are coming unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.

We are coming to the Lord in heaven, not have come. Even as the kingdom of God is come nigh to all men by His gospel.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

The translation of having already come to Mt Sion is purposely incorrect for the sake of false doctrine.

If anyone on earth today thinks they are already in heavenly Mt Sion, then they share in the same strong delusion of them that think the resurrection is personally past for them.

I know the simple source of it of course. OSAS. Afterall, if we're already having part in the first resurrection and ruling with Christ from places in heavenly Mt Sion, then we've already arrived and attained and cannot possibly fall.

OSAS delusion is the source for much false doctrine and prophecy. I would say it's close to being the mother of all such harlots.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The real problem here is that people think Jesus didn't rule by force over sinners because he wasn"t able to. Fatal mistake.

I don't know anyone who doesn't think Jesus can't rule by force. I've never heard of such a thing before. We know false teachers are refusing sound correction and reaching the end of their rope, when they begin to purposely misshape dissent in false terms.

Jesus doesn't yet rule over sinners by force, because He isn't yet given commandment by the Father too.

The Lamb has yet to return with wrath to rule with rod of iron, due to the longsuffering mercy of God.

If anyone thinks they are also now ruling on earth with Him from Mt Sion in some spirit-millennium, then I'd appreciate it if they would apply their resurrected power to forcibly remove some murderous dictators on earth. Just one would be a nice start for now. They can practise with any local city or even some small village.

Until then, neither their resurrection, standing on Mt Sion, nor ruling power has any force worth mentioning, because it's of no use to the real world.

Neither Peter and the apostles, nor any believers of their doctrine and prophecy follow such manifestly devised fables. (2 Peter 1)

Man isn't ruling this earth.

Tell that to the ruling house of Saud.

And it is a direct rejection of Scripture, where God gives man rule over this earth since the beginning of creation.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

We are all made to rule this earth, and given power from God in heaven to do so over all other creatures, including over other men and women. Whether we do so justly or unjustly, God will judge us for it.

The closest thing anyone on earth has to a resurrection at this time, is their head up in Cloud-cuckoo-land.

Socrates had more soundness of mind than that.

Pilate though he was. Nebuchadnezzer thought he was. Pharaoh thought he was.

Men have always been given power by God to rule on earth, and were commanded to do so over all the earth since the beginning. And it is still men and women on earth that are ruling, whether justly or unjustly. That is the only reason why Pilate had power to have Jesus crucified, and why men still today have such ruling power.

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus' kingdom rule is still not yet of this world, and will not be until the kingdoms of the world become His kingdoms and nations on earth at His return.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

The doctrine of a spirit-only sounding of the 7th angel is false, and makes a mockery of the true and sure prophecy to come.

This spirit-only doctrine and prophecy has no sense of truth of Scripture and knowledge of the manner of rule in this current world. You are simply trying to live in a world that is not yet come, which in itself is not a real problem, because I am quite sure you are of the neighborly sort.

It's just when Scripture is willingly mishandled to teach it as real, that is the problem. It becomes a delusion that does overthrow the faith, because it is born of the OSAS desire to believe we are already resurrected unto salvation forever, while still in this life of flesh and blood on earth.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

We can live like we're already in heaven by walking as Jesus walked in righteousness and true holiness, but we are not yet in heaven nor have part of any resurrection whatsoever. And if furthermore we are also still doing unrighteous works of the flesh, then our delusion is becomes damning to our souls.

When I start seeing some of the Lord's correction on evil rulers by the hands of any that believe in their own resurrection and rule with Christ on earth today, then I'll believe their doctrine. Until then, I don't believe a word of this so-called resurrection and rule with Christ from heaven. Not only is it false doctrine and prophecy, but also without any visible affect down here on earth where the rest of us live. It also likely leads to more ungodly living by them naming the name of Christ.

That's always what all such doctrine and prophecy is about, where the rubber meets the road. We may have fine words of teaching, but how are we living?

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Spirit-only resurrection and rule from places in heaven, are crafted fables that make the cross of none effect, because it leads to continued sinning against Christ.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

As I said before. When I eyewitness some spirit resurrected ruler with Christ from heaven toppling some murderous dictator from their seat of power and rule, then I will believe in their doctrine. Until then, it's just so much head in the clouds words with no affect. Especially if they are still walking after the flesh.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Gods' word describes the return of Jesus as a consuming inferno encompassing the entire universe.

Your word applies Jesus' prophecy of the end of this age, to Peter's prophecy of the end of this world.

You may want to see the Lord return and rule by mass destruction with a rod of iron, not me, nor the prophets, nor the Father.

It's not that He can't, nor would be unjustified in doing so. It's just not the written will of God in His Book.

This false prophecy of world genocide at the Lord's return is therefore of the same merciless manner of spirit, that Jesus rebuked John of having.

John repented of it.

When God shows kindness to unbelievers and they keep sinning, it isn't because he isn't ruling over them.

Yes it is proof that the Lord is not ruling over all people on earth.

By saying the Lord is ruling over the lives of all people on earth, then we are saying all people are saved and have the rule of Christ in their lives.

Saying Jesus is now personally ruling over the wicked, is saying Jesus is a ruler of wicked men.

This spirit-only millennium stuff is also making a mockery of the Lord's rule over all nations. He will certainly punish with rod of iron them that wilfully disobey the King during His true Millennium. That is obviously not the case now.

This spirit-only resurrection and rule is a doctrinal and prophetic farce, that has no place in the real world, especially not in the churches of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

They can be trusted to the same degree medical researchers and Fauci can be trusted.

Exactly true. Experts are only as good as the truth of their expertise.

The only expert theologian is one teaching Scripture as written. God has given every one of His sons power to become one.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Exactly true. Experts are only as good as the truth of their expertise.

Well I would say that it depends upon on the content of their character.

The only expert theologian is one teaching Scripture as written. God has given every one of His sons power to become one.

Everyone says claims they teach scripture as written…100% of them. No one openly says they deviate from scripture.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Obviously this isn’t true which begs the question why are some not led into truth. Jesus said knowing the truth depends totally upon our obedience. That is, character.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Well I would say that it depends upon on the content of their character.

True character is faithful to the true evidence.

Everyone says claims they teach scripture as written…100% of them. No one openly says they deviate from scripture.

Not true. There are many that reject sola Scriptura and openly glorify their sacred traditions alongside the Bible.

Catholic Mariologists, JW's Another Testament of Christ, etc...

They would be more honest by not pretending to ally their false traditions and testaments with the Book of God.

But there are many that also deviate from Scripture, whether ingorantly or knowingly, without saying so, or even trying to.

We've all had our past heresies to some degree or another. To be perfect in doctrine of God, we must remain faithful to His words by purposed discipline. Only in this way can the Spirit guide us into all the truth of God's word and do it.

Obviously this isn’t true which begs the question why are some not led into truth. Jesus said knowing the truth depends totally upon our obedience. That is, character.

True. And most all false doctrine and prophecy wrested from Scripture, is from not willing to obey the plain truth written on paper for us all to read, believe, and do.

Ex: Mariologists don't want to see and obey Jesus alone as Lord and God. They want their imaginary mother-figure to lean on and be burped and excused by.

This does not make them wicked in a sense, but only babyish for life in the faith.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

JW's of course don't even care about their figure-head created christ. I've learned they only make him up in order to do away with torment of hell and the LOF.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

True character is faithful to the true evidence.

Well, there are men of bad character who know a great deal about true evidence. Knowledge puffs up. It doesn’t build character.

Not true. There are many that reject sola Scriptura and openly glorify their sacred traditions alongside the Bible.

They claim the stick to scripture.

Catholic Mariologists, JW's Another Testament of Christ, etc...

They claim they teach the true scripture. Ask them.

They would be more honest by not pretending to ally their false traditions and testaments with the Book of God.

Well Baptists and Lutheran and Pentecostals have traditions too.

But there are many that also deviate from Scripture, whether ingorantly or knowingly, without saying so, or even trying to.

None think they do. That’s the point. You claim you don’t. They claim they don’t either.

We've all had our past heresies to some degree or another. To be perfect in doctrine of God, we must remain faithful to His words by purposed discipline. Only in this way can the Spirit guide us into all the truth of God's word and do it.

No, Jesus said those who DO what he teaches come into truth. He didn’t say those who claim to stick to scripture do.

True. And most all false doctrine and prophecy wrested from Scripture, is from not willing to obey the plain truth written on paper for us all to read, believe, and do.

It’s not always plain.

Ex: Mariologists don't want to see and obey Jesus alone as Lord and God. They want their imaginary mother-figure to lean on and be burped and excused by.

This does not make them wicked in a sense, but only babyish for life in the faith.

Depends.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

He doesn’t give different understanding to different people. Hence some don’t get their understanding from Him.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

JW's of course don't even care about their figure-head created christ. I've learned they only make him up in order to do away with torment of hell and the LOF.

JW theology appeals to similar appeals as other false teaching.

 

[journeyman]

The resurrection of the dead is not in doubt. A 'spirit resurrection' on earth is the error.

You simply ignored what Jesus said about the Patriarchs.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Everyone is reading the words exactly as they're stated.

How come we end up with different doctrine in different denominations.

Whether knowingly or unwittingly, the subtle error is to insert our own thinking and rules into the text. We think we are establishing God's word, when we are really mixing in some of our own.

Ex: The law of Christ condemns drunkenness. Some Christians condemn drinking wine at all.

The Pharisees did the same with the Sabbath. The law of Moses condemned working on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees condemned any physical activity, so that they judged rubbing ears of corn, carrying a bed, and even healing on the Sabbath to be transgression.

Jesus both drank wine and healed on Sabbath. There were Jews calling Him a transgressor then, and would be some Christians saying the same.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Especially if one assumes it’s a future event. No actually history to correct one. The Jews think it’s all future, for example.

The unbelieving Jews don't believe Revelation at all. They don't believe it will be Jesus coming in power with great glory. They will first receive a false christ coming in his own name.

He said all authority has already been given to him. See, that’s what I mean.

That's where you misapply the current truth with a future reality. After His coming again, He will be applying His authority with rod of iron over all His inherited nations. The figurehead 'ruling' you teach is not His prophesied Millennium to come.

No person on earth will be allowed to hold any position of authority anywhere on earth, that is not willingly and gladly submitted to the King.

Jesus now as the resurrected man has all authority, but He is not yet applying it physically over all people, except only by grace for those submitting themselves to Him.

As the God of Israel He had all authority over all heaven and earth, but He still had to use unjust rulers to achieve His ends.

There will be no such unjust rulers used by Him in His Millennium. They will all be done away with and replaced by the just sheep of His pasture.

This is the prophecy of old that will come to pass exactly as written. In Scripture there is no symbolic 'millennium' nor spirit 'resurrection'. There is only one kind of resurrection and millennium: physical.

The gospel of being raised from the death of sins and trespasses, and having the rule of Christ over our lives, is not the prophecy of the physical resurrection and millennium to come.

Mixing the two inflates one and guts the other.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Where does Revelation 19 say that? And you realize that the sword of the mouth is just words, right? Like preaching the gospel, right?

You mention of the sword of the mouth proves you know where it says it, but just don't accept it. I only repeat the plain words of it as physical fact, and not symbolic fable.

Using a symbol within a prophecy, does not negate the prophecy. Paul says He will destroy them with the spirit of His mouth and brightness of His coming. Do you say that is symbolic only too?

Well, there are considerable metaphors there. Jesus’ mouth doesn’t have a sword stuck in it.

Which is no reason to reject the whole prophecy as nothing but metaphor.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

The only thing possibly symbolic in the prophecy is a sword proceeding out of His mouth, and your mockery of it being 'stuck' in His mouth is telling.

John described the same sword on Patmos. Do you also say Jesus did not appear to John on Patmos as written?

Can’t say. Haven’t noticed.

You've noticed, but just don't accept it as literal. The case of Rev 19 with the Lord coming with His armies following from heaven to smite the nations and rule them with rod of iron, is case in point.

You reject it as physically true, because of the sword out of His mouth. Was His appearance to John on Patmos also not physically true, because John speaks of the sword proceeding from His mouth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If a man thinks a prophesy is NOT fulfilled which really is, what is written won’t help.

Dittoes with someone thinking prophesy is already fulfilled, and it isn't.

Like the Jews and Jesus. They go by “what is written.”

You are going by what you symbolize out of what is written. I go by the words written as sure and true.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

You say I overlook man's history, and I say you gut the Lord's prophecy of substance.

I've also corrected your revised Roman history. Rome never ruled over kings, but first removed their kings by war, and then ruled over provinces by their own appointed governors.

Rome never ruled over kings, but only destroyed their kingships.

Again, if one is ignorant of real history, one will miss the truth.

Whether revising history to fit prophesy, or spiritualizing prophecy to fit history, both are false.

Jesus' Millennium is not a 'figurative' rule over all nations, as you suggest.