1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[RBDERRICK]

Probably because :
"can't say, everything I don't mean, or do mean by what I write."

Probably because :
"But why do I believe regeneration is one of the first parts of Deliverence, ( salvation)?"

And probably mostly: why should I write what you already should know.

No problem. However, if we're going to preach the gospel of God's faith, then we ought to ensure we preach it as written.

{3:19} Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

I mean, it's only three little words to also write, before going on to regeneration in Christ Jesus.

Many exclude those words on purpose, and never include them before being converted to Jesus.

Most the time they even preach repentance, is only as a following afterthought, and gradual thing that never actually stops the sinning.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Their own brand of repentance is just religious window dressing for appearances sake. It's not like it's necessary to be saved and justified with God, or anything that 'drastic'.

And because I'm not trying to read your mind to write from it.

I hope not. It never occurs to me to even try it with others.

Galatians
{1:10} For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

When we quote the Bible, we're writing from the mind of Christ, not our own. And so, I just quote all the words of the Bible in context, and let the others decide for themselves whether to do it or not.

 

[Corinth77777]

Doctrine of Christ is simple and plain for any child to understand.

Acts
{3:19} Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Unrepentant man's doctrine however, says ceasing sinning is not necessary to be saved by God.





And they love to take forever to show just how to 'understand' that bit of faith alone wizardry.

What we see here, is a perfect example of how 'bringing one to understanding', is how philosophy of man replaces commandment of God, with ideological theology that repents not.

1 Cor
{2:4} And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: {2:5} That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Romans
{16:17} Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. {16:18} For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. {16:19} For your obedience is come abroad unto all [men.]

It's the obedience of the saints that is honored by God and man, not the 'understanding' of the disobedient.

Luke
{2:52} And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Only the unrepentant want to hear about how to 'understand', that repentance and obedience are not 'really' necessary to be justified with God.

Afteall, who needs simple godly repentance and obedience, when you have such a vast 'understanding' about being justified by one's own faith alone?


And, this is one for the record books. In all our understanding getting, let's get to pondering the grand question:

Would Jesus rather have us obeying God, or trusting Him. As though godly obedience and trust were ever either/or.

1 Tim
{6:3} If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; {6:4} He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
Some unrepentant sinners would rather be drawn into a dissertation on 'understanding', rather than just be commanded to stop the stealing already. That's much too offensive to the sensitivities of the disobedient, who really, really would like to 'understand' exactly why.

Collosians
{2:8} Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. {2:9}

2 Tim
{2:16} But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. {2:17} And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
And so we see the nature of teaching idealized 'understanding' over plain obedience: The great 'understanding' of faith aloners, is they would much rather be 'understanding' God's trust, than just be obeying His spoken will.

Who needs obedience, when you have trust and honor among thieves?


So, back to the subject at hand: The plain understanding of 1 John 1, is that no one is walking in the light of Jesus Christ, while also doing unrighteous works of darkness.

And no amount of sinful man's doctrinal 'understanding' about how their own faith alone can save them, will ever change the truth of God's righteous judgment: He always condemns the sins and trespasses of the world against Him.

And righteous God will not show any respect of any person's 'understanding' about it.

Rev
{13:18} Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore six.

What I see is a person who doesn't practice what they preach.

To make up ideals about people is not Godly..
So first practice living what you say you believe.

You come off like a hot shot, a know it all. And love does not boast. That is how you portray yourself in the words you speak.

So Repent, practice what you preach!

 

[Corinth77777]

What I see is a person who doesn't practice what they preach.

To make up ideals about people is not Godly..
So first practice living what you say you believe.

You come off like a hot shot, a know it all. And love does not boast. That is how you portray yourself in the words you speak.

So Repent, practice what you preach!

 

[Corinth77777]

Now the question why did I start off explaining

How I saw salvation?
Because I had read a tiny bit about Wesleyanism
Who state Sanctification is the whole deal.

So What did I say:

Regeneration/Justification- Belief in who Jesus is with intent to follow.

Noting: Looking at the above statement, if one knows that repentance is: to rethink your thinking then if they have believed who Jesus was with intent to follow they have already repented.

John prepared the way for people to receive their king with the right heart.

......
Next I said after one receives the Spirit, they can walk by it. This being sanctification.

...
And last I said Glorification.

......
Sadly RBDERRICK you could not see that I am not against Repentance. You seem to be pushy like bullying and it's just not an acceptable act of one who preaches sinless perfection.

Anyway

The difference in our beliefs are you receice the Holy Spirit when you never sin again

And I, as the scripture says in Ephesians 2 being dead in sin was quicken together with Christ.
Therefore a dead person can't make themselves alive. Belief in who Jesus is makes one alive.

He did not save us by any works of righteousness we had done. But through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Spirit

 

[Free]

It is.


Based on all these statements, it is evident that you really don’t understand the position that everyone has been stating. Are you trying to learn what others believe or are you only interested in telling others that their position is wrong?

Not a single person in any of these discussions is saying that there is no need for repentance. Not one. And, I haven’t seen a single person deny that we are to obey Christ.

What everyone is saying is that the Bible is absolutely unequivocal in teaching that works do not justify anyone. Ever. Good works are evidence of faith; we obey Christ because we are justified.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
…
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(All ESV.)

No one is justified by either works of the law or works of righteousness, in part or in whole. That is a false gospel. We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

RBDERRICK You never replied to the above post: https://christianforums.net/threads...ustifying-doctrine.104059/page-6#post-1868735

 

[RBDERRICK]

It is.


Based on all these statements, it is evident that you really don’t understand the position that everyone has been stating.

How so. I always give supporting evidence when making personal observations. Show any point anyone has made, that I responded to, and proves I don't know their position.

If so, I'll gladly correct it.

Are you trying to learn what others believe

Learn yes. Agree with? Not necessarily. It's a matter of respect to understand exactly what others are teaching, but not only to agree.

Galatians
{1:10} For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

or are you only interested in telling others that their position is wrong?

Only when I believe they are wrong with the Bible. Which in this dispute is quite often, since most people want to preach being saved and justified by their own faith alone, and by their works.

It's the many half-hearted sinners, that do not want their works judged righteously by the Father.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Not a single person in any of these discussions is saying that there is no need for repentance. Not one.

And so, we see how you're the one neither understanding what they say, nor my responses to them.

No one has said there is no need for repentance, nor have I suggested anyone has. The dispute is between repenting from all sinning for Jesus' sake unto His salvation, vs those preaching salvation by their own faith alone, with repentance following. Which is never complete from all their sins and trespasses in this life.

You've pulled a strawman out of your hat, in order to say something that is clearly false, and then ascribe it to me.

And, I haven’t seen a single person deny that we are to obey Christ.

Dittoes as above.

The argument is between fully repented sons obeying God at all times, and half-hearted repenting sinners, that only obey God some of the time.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

God counts half-hearted repentance as unrepentance to ward Him. It's either all or nothing with Him. He only has mercy on unconditional surrender to Christ, and not the conditional surrender demanded by sinful men.

Galatians
{1:11} But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What everyone is saying is that the Bible is absolutely unequivocal in teaching that works do not justify anyone. Ever.

You and others like are the only ones believing and teaching that, not the God of the Bible. And you do so by loudly saying the opposite of the Bible:

James
{2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Good works are evidence of faith;

Exactly, The evidence of faith is works, and without works faith is dead, being alone.

we obey Christ because we are justified.

This is not the same as declaring works do not justify a man with Christ, while God says works do justify a man with Christ.

No man is justified with disobedience to God, but only with obedience to God.

Both faith without works, and justification without obedience, is dead being alone.

No one is justified by either works of the law or works of righteousness, in part or in whole.

Which is not the same as having works with faith, and obedience with justification.

No faith of God is without works, and no justification of God is without obedience.

That is a false gospel.

True. The gospel of being saved by one's own faith alone, and not justified by any works, is the exact opposite of God's gospel in the Bible.

We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Which is dead faith of no justification. See above.

Once again, it's amazing to see people openly oppose simple words of the Bible, while declaring loudly what they say the Bible preaches.

Galatians
{1:6} I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: {1:7} Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

It's just amazing. God says faith alone without works is dead, and can save no man. And you say a man is saved by faith alone without works. Just amazing. And I'm the one that just doesn't get it, by quoting God's words that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

P.s. if you are trying to preach having faith in Christ alone, and not in ourselves and our own works alone, then that is the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. However, that is not the gospel you are also trying to preach of being saved by faith alone, and not by any works.

And no man has the faith of God that is Jesus' alone, who are not repented of all their sins and trespasses for His sake alone:

Acts
{3:19} Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; {3:20} And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Heb
{6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

The faith of sinful man alone, with half-hearted repentance that is never complete in this life, is certainly not the faith of Jesus, who alone always does those things pleasing to the Father.

That faith of Jesus alone, is only given to them that repent of any and all works displeasing to God for His name's sake.

Only the good and righteous works of God done through Jesus Christ, justify a man with God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

This is the last thing I will say about your heresy as it’s off topic.

Since you are referring to the topic, that I started, then I've not seen you be on topic at all. Perhaps I've missed it.


1 John 1
{1:5} This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. {1:6} If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

The rebuke of 1 John 1, is to any believer that says they are walking in the light with Christ, while doing unrighteous works of darkness.

What do you say: Do you believe you are in the light of Christ, when doing a work of darkness?

 

[Free]

How so. I always give supporting evidence when making personal observations. Show any point anyone has made, that I responded to, and proves I don't know their position.

I did; I quoted you. You’ve made a significant assumption about what those who disagree with you believe.

If so, I'll gladly correct it.

Then, please, do so.

Learn yes. Agree with? Not necessarily. It's a matter of respect to understand exactly what others are teaching, but not only to agree.

Then you should understand exactly what others are teaching.

Only when I believe they are wrong with the Bible. Which in this dispute is quite often, since most people want to preach being saved and justified by their own faith alone, and by their works.

Except that numerous verses explicitly state we are not ever justified by works and not one contradicts it.

It's the many half-hearted sinners, that do not want their works judged righteously by the Father.

This is the second incorrect assumption you’re making about what others believe. Again, you should try and understand what others believe.

And so, we see how you're the one neither understanding what they say, nor my responses to them.

No one has said there is no need for repentance,

My point exactly.

nor have I suggested anyone has.

Except you did:

“Only the unrepentant want to hear about how to 'understand', that repentance and obedience are not 'really' necessary to be justified with God.

Afteall, who needs simple godly repentance and obedience, when you have such a vast 'understanding' about being justified by one's own faith alone?”

The dispute is between repenting from all sinning for Jesus' sake unto His salvation, vs those preaching salvation by their own faith alone, with repentance following. Which is never complete from all their sins and trespasses in this life.

And, again, assumptions.

You've pulled a strawman out of your hat, in order to say something that is clearly false, and then ascribe it to me.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, in which case please provide clarification. As it seems to me, you have stated that all who (biblically) teach that justification is not by works but by grace alone through faith alone, deny that repentance is necessary for justification.

Dittoes as above.

What do you mean by this? You previously stated:

"And so we see the nature of teaching idealized 'understanding' over plain obedience: The great 'understanding' of faith aloners, is they would much rather be 'understanding' God's trust, than just be obeying His spoken will."

You are once again making an assumption, namely, that any who understand the biblical teaching that justification is by grace alone through faith alone aren't obedient or don't think obedience is necessary or not important.

The argument is between fully repented sons obeying God at all times, and half-hearted repenting sinners, that only obey God some of the time.

That's your argument but it is not based what anyone is saying. Based on Scripture, based on what John states throughout 1 John, those who are truly justified still struggle with sin (that is supported by the entire NT). He even says that any believer who denies that is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them.

God counts half-hearted repentance as unrepentance to ward Him. It's either all or nothing with Him. He only has mercy on unconditional surrender to Christ, and not the conditional surrender demanded by sinful men.

Of course. No one has said otherwise.

Galatians
{1:11} But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

It is ironic that you appeal to this verse and to Galatians in general. The whole point that Paul is making is that teaching that works save is another gospel.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (ESV)

It's all by faith, not works. Those who teach works are necessary for salvation preach a different gospel.

 

[Free]

You and others like are the only ones believing and teaching that, not the God of the Bible. And you do so by loudly saying the opposite of the Bible:

James
{2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Why do you so easily dismiss the passages I have given without even addressing them? You have two verses that you appeal to, both of which have been addressed. You're taking them out of context and ignoring numerous other passages that unequivocally state we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

You are pitting James and Paul against each other but have yet to attempt to address what Paul says:

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
Rom 4:18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”
Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” (ESV)

Paul clearly states that Abraham was not justified by works, but by faith. Additionally, he clearly states that the Scriptures foresaw “that God would justify the Gentiles by faith.” So, James 2:24 must be saying something else.

In context, we see that James is talking about works being evidence of one’s faith, not that works save (justify). True faith results in good works but don’t save anyone. Abraham offering up his son is proof of his faith and so vindicate (justify) it. He was justified by faith long before he was willing to offer up Isaac. By taking James 2:24 out of context, you are conflating two different meanings of "justified."

Exactly, The evidence of faith is works, and without works faith is dead, being alone.

A lack of good works is evidence one isn't saved, but never is it stated that works save; they are only evidence of faith. Justification by grace alone through faith alone comes first; good works that follow are evidence that one is truly saved.

This is not the same as declaring works do not justify a man with Christ,

Of course it's the same. How is it not the same?

while God says works do justify a man with Christ.

Where is that stated in Scripture?

No man is justified with disobedience to God, but only with obedience to God.

No man is justified by either. We can only be obedient to God once we are justified, not before.

Both faith without works, and justification without obedience, is dead being alone.

No, only faith without works.

Which is not the same as having works with faith, and obedience with justification.

No faith of God is without works, and no justification of God is without obedience.

Doing good works is being obedient and is only evidence of faith. Justification is by grace alone through faith alone. Then comes the obedience of doing good works.

True. The gospel of being saved by one's own faith alone, and not justified by any works, is the exact opposite of God's gospel in the Bible.

Paul strongly disagrees with you. And Jesus. And James. And the NT.

Which is dead faith of no justification. See above.

Once again, it's amazing to see people openly oppose simple words of the Bible, while declaring loudly what they say the Bible preaches.

And you have yet to actually address the numerous passages I've provided which clearly state either that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone or just by faith alone (it really means the same thing).

Galatians
{1:6} I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: {1:7} Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Again, the irony...

It's just amazing. God says faith alone without works is dead, and can save no man. And you say a man is saved by faith alone without works. Just amazing. And I'm the one that just doesn't get it, by quoting God's words that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

P.s. if you are trying to preach having faith in Christ alone, and not in ourselves and our own works alone, then that is the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Of course that is what I am saying. It should go without saying. Why would anyone preach that we have faith in ourselves alone or our own works?

However, that is not the gospel you are also trying to preach of being saved by faith alone, and not by any works.

Because nowhere does the Bible teach that we are justified by works, either bad or good, in whole or in part.

The faith of sinful man alone, with half-hearted repentance that is never complete in this life, is certainly not the faith of Jesus, who alone always does those things pleasing to the Father.

That faith of Jesus alone, is only given to them that repent of any and all works displeasing to God for His name's sake.

I agree.

Only the good and righteous works of God done through Jesus Christ, justify a man with God.

Except that is nowhere stated in Scripture. We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, "it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph 2:8-9).

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

We do good works because we have been justified and desire to be obedient.

 

[Free]

Since you are referring to the topic, that I started, then I've not seen you be on topic at all. Perhaps I've missed it.


1 John 1
{1:5} This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. {1:6} If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

The rebuke of 1 John 1, is to any believer that says they are walking in the light with Christ, while doing unrighteous works of darkness.

What do you say: Do you believe you are in the light of Christ, when doing a work of darkness?

The rebuke of 1 John 1 is to those who profess to be followers of Christ but live a life characterized by sin and don't confess their sins. What John is certainly not saying is that believers never sin. That is a false gospel. It is not only never stated in Scripture, the vast majority of the NT, if not all of it, explicitly states or implies that true believers continue to struggle with sin. This is because, although justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, we still live in a fallen world under the influence of Satan and struggle against the sinful nature of our own flesh.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The rebuke of 1 John 1 is to those who profess to be followers of Christ but live a life characterized by sin and don't confess their sins. What John is certainly not saying is that believers never sin. That is a false gospel. It is not only never stated in Scripture, the vast majority of the NT, if not all of it, explicitly states or implies that true believers continue to struggle with sin. This is because, although justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, we still live in a fallen world under the influence of Satan and struggle against the sinful nature of our own flesh.

As you stated above..."We do good works because we have been justified and desire to be obedient."...doesn't it stand to reason that those NOT doing good works-obeying God have not been justified or desire to be obedient ?
They are the falsely repentant that RBDERRICK is writing about.
They say they love God, but their sinful works betray them as haters of God.

 

[Free]

As you stated above..."We do good works because we have been justified and desire to be obedient."...doesn't it stand to reason that those NOT doing good works-obeying God have not been justified or desire to be obedient ?
They are the falsely repentant that RBDERRICK is writing about.
They say they love God, but their sinful works betray them as haters of God.

You need to define your terms more precisely. Through God’s grace, even unbelievers aren’t generally nearly as evil as they could be. Even they have an idea of what is good and that they should do good works. However, their lives are characterized by willful, unrepentant sin, and even their good works are tainted by sin.

Believers, on the other hand, have truly repented and turned to Christ for salvation and have all their past sins forgiven. Their lives are not characterized by sin that is habitual or planned and intentional; they are characterized by a desire to live holy lives unto God. However, consistent with 1 John and the rest of Scripture, believers still struggle with sin from the influence of temptation, passion, or provocation because we live in a fallen world. But when true believers do sin, they are quick to confess their sins, and "he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

John is essentially writing of the Christian ideal--to be perfectly sinless--but he is also a realist and knows that Christians will always struggle with sin this side of heaven; himself included. We will sin less and less as we grow in our faith and reliance on God, but sinless perfection this side of heaven is never taught in Scripture.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You need to define your terms more precisely. Through God’s grace, even unbelievers aren’t generally nearly as evil as they could be. Even they have an idea of what is good and that they should do good works. However, their lives are characterized by willful, unrepentant sin, and even their good works are tainted by sin.

So they are not justified, and don't want to obey God, as I wrote earlier.

Believers, on the other hand, have truly repented and turned to Christ for salvation and have all their past sins forgiven. Their lives are not characterized by sin that is habitual or planned and intentional; they are characterized by a desire to live holy lives unto God.

Correct.

However, consistent with 1 John and the rest of Scripture, believers still struggle with sin from the influence of temptation, passion, or provocation because we live in a fallen world. But when true believers do sin, they are quick to confess their sins, and "he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

Wait a minute !
You are saying the repentant have not repented.
Ergo, they are not justified by God.
That also shows that their belief was false.

John is essentially writing of the Christian ideal--to be perfectly sinless--but he is also a realist and knows that Christians will always struggle with sin this side of heaven; himself included.

You have assigned the label of falsely repentant, unjustified, and unbeliever, to John.

We will sin less and less as we grow in our faith and reliance on God, but sinless perfection this side of heaven is never taught in Scripture.

Gradual sanctification is a doctrine of the devil.
Those people never quit sinning.
They never had the faith to be a true believer in Christ.

BTW, perfect obedience is commanded by God, (1 Peter 1:15-16), and by Jesus Christ. (Matt 5:48)
Paul says..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Peter says..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
John says...“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)
The sinners you cite are unrepentant, don't know God, and have not been begotten of God.

 

[Corinth77777]

How so. I always give supporting evidence when making personal observations. Show any point anyone has made, that I responded to, and proves I don't know their position.

You dont know my position if you did you would not have mentioned that I dont teach repentance.

You put everybody in your box and start to write from it.

WHICH IS LIKE AN ATTACK.
JUST ASKED THE QUESTION THAT YOU WANT A SPECIFIC ANSWER FOR. LIKE: DO YOU BELIEVE A PERSON NEEDS TO REPENT?

That way you stop attacking post that don't say exactly what you want to hear because you don't see a buz word.

You think you know people's position but in a couple of earlier post I found it to be rude to start rattling off- especially sharing my wonderful story.

repentance is to rethink your thinking. And John the Baptist told the pharasees to bring forth fruit
Of repentence. Yet if we wanted to act like you we would be thinking- oh B did not say bring forth fruit of a change of heart, so let me attack him by letting Him know what He did not say.

Which means I'm just reading to critique.

If so, I'll gladly correct it.



Learn yes. Agree with? Not necessarily. It's a matter of respect to understand exactly what others are teaching, but not only to agree.

Galatians
{1:10} For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.





Only when I believe they are wrong with the Bible. Which in this dispute is quite often, since most people want to preach being saved and justified by their own faith alone, and by their works.

It's the many half-hearted sinners, that do not want their works judged righteously by the Father.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.



And so, we see how you're the one neither understanding what they say, nor my responses to them.

No one has said there is no need for repentance, nor have I suggested anyone has. The dispute is between repenting from all sinning for Jesus' sake unto His salvation, vs those preaching salvation by their own faith alone, with repentance following. Which is never complete from all their sins and trespasses in this life.

You've pulled a strawman out of your hat, in order to say something that is clearly false, and then ascribe it to me.




Dittoes as above.

The argument is between fully repented sons obeying God at all times, and half-hearted repenting sinners, that only obey God some of the time.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

God counts half-hearted repentance as unrepentance to ward Him. It's either all or nothing with Him. He only has mercy on unconditional surrender to Christ, and not the conditional surrender demanded by sinful men.

Galatians
{1:11} But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

 

[Corinth77777]

You dont know my position if you did you would not have mentioned that I dont teach repentance.

You put everybody in your box and start to write from it.

WHICH IS LIKE AN ATTACK.
JUST ASKED THE QUESTION THAT YOU WANT A SPECIFIC ANSWER FOR. LIKE: DO YOU BELIEVE A PERSON NEEDS TO REPENT?

That way you stop attacking post that don't say exactly what you want to hear because you don't see a buz word.

You think you know people's position but in a couple of earlier post I found it to be rude to start rattling off- especially sharing my wonderful story.

repentance is to rethink your thinking. And John the Baptist told the pharasees to bring forth fruit
Of repentence. Yet if we wanted to act like you we would be thinking- oh B did not say bring forth fruit of a change of heart, so let me attack him by letting Him know what He did not say.

Which means I'm just reading to critique.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK You never replied to the above post: https://christianforums.net/threads...ustifying-doctrine.104059/page-6#post-1868735

Yes. I did. I don't tell others they are wrong, liars, false teachers, hereticks, etc... I show it by Scripture.

If someone wants me to agree with them, then it has to be by Scripture. If they are just looking for some agreement, then they can leave me alone and go to others.

Bible disputes are about the truth of Scripture, or lies against Scripture.

That's all I'm interested in. I'm not about obviously false personal accusations, that are guised as 'questions'.

 

[Corinth77777]

How so. I always give supporting evidence when making personal observations. Show any point anyone has made, that I responded to, and proves I don't know their position.

If so, I'll gladly correct it.



Learn yes. Agree with? Not necessarily. It's a matter of respect to understand exactly what others are teaching, but not only to agree.

Galatians
{1:10} For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Only when I believe they are wrong with the Bible. Which in this dispute is quite often, since most people want to preach being saved and justified by their own faith alone, and by their works.

YOU HAVE NOT CAME ACCROSS MOST PEOPLE.

YOU ARE RIGHT WHEN YOU SAY: "ONLY WHEN YOU BELIEVE". BUT YOU ARE NOT GOD- YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE.

It's the many half-hearted sinners, that do not want their works judged righteously by the Father.

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT- HERE YOU ARE PLAYING GOD AGAIN.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

And so, we see how you're the one neither understanding what they say, nor my responses to them.

No one has said there is no need for repentance, nor have I suggested anyone has. The dispute is between repenting from all sinning for Jesus' sake unto His salvation, vs those preaching salvation by their own faith alone, with repentance following. Which is never complete from all their sins and trespasses in this life.

Repent means to rethink your thinking...

Abraham believed God and He was credited righteousness.

It's turning to God that He will get rid of faithlessness.

As I said somewhere in an earlier post- I believe righteousness is imputed as well as imparted.

We find that Abraham was Justified more than once....And He is called the Father of faith.

So many peoples' ideals come from imputed righteousness. Not imparted.

......
As for faith alone subject. My understanding came along when I read Galatians in the kjv.
I believe it may be Galatians 2:16.

That In this case its not faith in Jesus-
But the faith or faithfulness of Jesus.

["knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, (1st)even we have believed in Jesus Christ, (2nd)that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."]


1st- we see in the passage - that they believed in Jesus Christ.

Question-Do you believe one receives the holy Spirit when they believe in Jesus?

2nd - why did they believed in Jesus?" that they might be justified by the faith of Jesus"

So rightly understood it is the faith of Jesus that saves. But the faith of Jesus would not have happened if God did not give His son up.

God is Faithful

Now if we go and read Eph 2:8
One must asked whose faith, sense faith is not of ourselves.

You've pulled a strawman out of your hat, in order to say something that is clearly false, and then ascribe it to me.




Dittoes as above.

The argument is between fully repented sons obeying God at all times, and half-hearted repenting sinners, that only obey God some of the time.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

God counts half-hearted repentance as unrepentance to ward Him. It's either all or nothing with Him. He only has mercy on unconditional surrender to Christ, and not the conditional surrender demanded by sinful men.

Galatians
{1:11} But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Yes. I did. I don't tell others they are wrong, liars, false teachers, hereticks, etc... I show it by Scripture.

If someone wants me to agree with them, then it has to be by Scripture. If they are just looking for some agreement, then they can leave me alone and go to others.

Bible disputes are about the truth of Scripture, or lies against Scripture.

That's all I'm interested in. I'm not about obviously false personal accusations, that are guised as 'questions'.

We can also tell you what you don't write. But we don't. We consider people. Love seeks not its own but the well being of others. Love is gentle and kind, not rude.

 

[Free]

So they are not justified, and don't want to obey God, as I wrote earlier.

Of course. It goes without saying.

Wait a minute !
You are saying the repentant have not repented.
Ergo, they are not justified by God.
That also shows that their belief was false.

I am saying no such thing. You are using circular reasoning by presuming that anyone who sins is not justified, reading that into the text, and then using it to conclude the same. But, that is not at all what John says. No writer in the NT says that. What they do clearly say, mostly implicitly but also explicitly, is that true believers, those who have repented, turned to Christ, and are justified, continue to struggle with sin until they are glorified.

For example:

Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
Jas 3:3 If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well.
Jas 3:4 Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs.
Jas 3:5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.
Jas 3:7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind,
Jas 3:8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.
Jas 3:10 From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so. (ESV)

Even James says that "we all stumble in many ways." "Stumble" is the Greek word ptaio, which means "to trip, that is, (figuratively) to err, sin, fail (of salvation): - fall, offend, stumble" (Strong's). He then goes on to define what he means by those believers who bless God and curse others. But, his whole point is that the tongue and the injury it can do is the reason why few should seek to "become teachers."

These sorts of warnings are all throughout the NT and are pointless if believers don't sin.

You have assigned the label of falsely repentant, unjustified, and unbeliever, to John.

Not at all. John clearly includes himself:

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

As I have pointed out before, "we confess" is homologōmen, which is a verb in the form of present, subjunctive, active and is a first person plural. So, the first person plural is obvious--it's "we." But, the present, subjunctive, active indicates a command or wish that is to be an ongoing or habitual action to be performed by the "we." Also, "sins" is plural, which makes sense given that John tells all believers to continually confess.

This can all be verified by doing some study on what John actually wrote, instead of simply relying on a given translation, although some translations bring this out.

Start by looking at 1 John 1 here:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/1.htm

And then look at Greek sources to find out what the mood, tense, voice, etc., all mean.

If you deny the above, your only option is to believe that John is telling unbelievers to continually confess their sins, which doesn't make sense since John says that God "is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." If God forgives just one time and then unbelievers are justified, then John is wrong that God will forgive and cleanse them, because if they must continually confess, they would never be justified. Your position makes no sense of what John actually wrote.

Gradual sanctification is a doctrine of the devil.

Sanctification is stated to be both something that happened at a point in time and an ongoing process. Sinless perfection is a doctrine of the devil that ignores much of the NT. Sinless perfection will only happen at glorification.

Those people never quit sinning.
They never had the faith to be a true believer in Christ.

According to John, those who aren’t true believers are those “believers” who say they are without sin. Such are self-deceived and without the truth; they make God a liar and do not have his word in them. Why? Because it is to deny the reality of their own sin; it is to sin but say that it isn’t sin. It is to say that God is wrong for calling their actions sinful.

BTW, perfect obedience is commanded by God, (1 Peter 1:15-16), and by Jesus Christ. (Matt 5:48)
Paul says..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Peter says..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

Context...

John says...“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)
The sinners you cite are unrepentant, don't know God, and have not been begotten of God.

Again, context is not your friend; neither the immediate context, the greater context of 1 John, nor the context of Scripture. Case in point: 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

 

[Free]

Yes. I did.

Yes, you did after that post you just quoted.

I don't tell others they are wrong, liars, false teachers, hereticks, etc... I show it by Scripture.

So, there you are. You are hiding behind Scripture to "tell others they are wrong, liars, false teachers, hereticks, etc.," based on your own personal interpretation. That is sin.

If someone wants me to agree with them, then it has to be by Scripture. If they are just looking for some agreement, then they can leave me alone and go to others.

And, yet, whenever someone does show with Scripture, you often dismiss those passages without addressing them, and continue to proceed with telling them they're wrong. That is dishonest and, therefore, sin.

Bible disputes are about the truth of Scripture, or lies against Scripture.

And, you always seem to be right, which would indicate spiritual pride, which is sin.

That's all I'm interested in. I'm not about obviously false personal accusations, that are guised as 'questions'.

Funny how it seems to be that you're always right and everyone else wrong. When you're also not addressing the passages that others provide, it strongly suggests that you're not interested in truth at all, but just about being right. So, you are insulting others under the guise of seeking truth, but that is sin.