Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

I see little difference in "justification by faith alone," and "justification by grace alone?"

Me neither. Neither of them is quoted from Scripture.

I was just a little shocked by someone actually quoting the Scripture to me accurately for the first time, without adding their word 'alone' to the Scripture. Especially since their past habit had never failed to add it.

I was just curious as to why. But iut doesn't realloy matter. I know that anyone's faith alone in Christ, is not my faith in Christ.

I don't preach any faith alone at all. If for no other reason, than the Bible only condemns any faith alone as being dead to God and man.

If only my faith in Christ counts, and not faith in anything else, including myself, the implication is that I'm relying on Christ, ie I'm relying on his grace.

You are preaching a kind of faith alone, that is not the faith alone that justifies, apart from works, and never by works.

The argument is not against only believing in Jesus Christ, and no other christ nor god. I only argue from Scripture against preaching a person is always justified by their faith alone, no matter what works they are doing at the time.

Do you believe you are justified by your faith in Christ, if you are disobeying Him in unrighteousness? If a believer is being drunk, or fornicating, or both at the same time, is that 'bad' Christian still justified by their faith alone in Christ?

 

[RandyK]

Me neither. Neither of them is quoted from Scripture.

I was just a little shocked by someone actually quoting the Scripture to me accurately for the first time, without adding their word 'alone' to the Scripture. Especially since their past habit had never failed to add it.

I was just curious as to why. But iut doesn't realloy matter. I know that anyone's faith alone in Christ, is not my faith in Christ.

I don't preach any faith alone at all. If for no other reason, than the Bible only condemns any faith alone as being dead to God and man.

Yea, I see this as a language problem. What one person means by "faith alone" means something different to another. So what really matters is how we're using the term?

Luther used "Faith Alone" to focus on how he was defining it--he was not trying to mistranslate Scripture--he was in fact a good translator! Rather, he was defining "Faith" as he saw the Bible define it, as separate from anything having to do with our Works independent of God.

And so, Luther defined "Faith" as "Faith Alone," ie "Faith apart from Independent Human Works." After all, that is precisely how Paul defined it, "not of works, lest any man should boast."

There was no thought, therefore, of a "Faith Alone" that existed apart from God's Word--only a "Faith" that was completely connected to God's Word. It was this Faith Alone that was true "Faith" for Paul, ie a Faith that is necessarily connected to God's Word so that it is not associated with anything else, consisting of independent human works.

Do you believe you are justified by your faith in Christ, if you are disobeying Him in unrighteousness? If a believer is being drunk, or fornicating, or both at the same time, is that 'bad' Christian still justified by their faith alone in Christ?

No, I don't think you understand my pov. True "Faith" for me is connected to God's Word. So when we obey Him, our works are connected to God's Word and as such, represent true "Faith Alone," ie Faith that subtracts from it Independent Human Works.

If our Works are connected to God's Word they are not Independent Works. Thus, they are genuine biblical "Faith."

 

[RBDERRICK]

Faith is opposed to our works without Christ.

True. The faith of Jesus Christ is opposed to anyone still doing their own works without Christ.

Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

God's gift of Jesus' righteous faith is only given to them, that repent of our own dead works, and are sprinkled with His blood from on high. (Not by His natural blood from upon a cross.)

We have faith in Christ because faith in ourselves doesn't work.

True. Having faith apart from doing good, doesn't work to justify the believer, since their faith is within themselves alone.

The faith of Jesus Christ is not of ourselves, nor in ourselves alone, but is only given by grace to them, that repent of our own will, faith, and works without Christ.

Mar 8:34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

We have to trust in someone outside of ourselves, and that is Christ alone!

Jesus Christ is only outside the transgressors, that have not His faith.

Heb 7:26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

But He is now within them that repent of their own transgressors, and recieve Him and His righteous faith and power by grace.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

No one having the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, is transgressing His law. And no one transgressing His law, has the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Transgressors doing no good, only have their faith in themselves, not in Jesus Christ.

James 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

1 John 3:17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Jas 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The error of justification by one's faith alone in Christ, is when their faith is only within, but not doing any good towards God and man.

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Again, I do not wish to speak for Free, but it seems obvious to me that he is saying "our own faith alone" is not what justifies us.

You don't, but those preaching justification by their faith alone in Christ, "apart from and never by works", certainly are.

You need to learn what others are preaching, before trying to impute your own teaching to them.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Faith Alone," as opposed to what?

Faith with works.

Faith in Christ is always with works, because His faith is never alone without works, and certainly not with any bad works.

Jhn 8:29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Anyone disobeying God is left alone by the Father and the Son. And any faith they have is their own alone without Jesus Christ.

That is Justification by Faith in Christ alone. It is not Faith in any other source.

The Scripture argument is only against being justified by having a faith in Christ, that is accompanied with doing evil.

Neither their faith nor justification is in Christ Jesus, but in another source called Christ.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

It is *not* saying that our own faith, irregardless of what our faith is placed in, justifies us!

How about regardless of what we are doing at the time?

What we are doing proves what our faith is place in. If we are doing unrighteousness, our faith is in ourselves. If we are doing His righteousness, our faith is in Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

You are apparently misrepresenting what "Faith Alone" really intends to say and mean. Do you realize that's what you're doing?

Do you realize you are not preaching the faith alone in Christ, that justifies the soul while obeying or disobeying God?

"Faith Alone" is intending to mean, at least from my perspective, "Faith in Christ Alone!"

Does that include if and when doing unrighteousness against God?

Are you still justified by your faith alone in Christ, if you are also disobeying Him in unrighteous works of of the flesh?

1 Cor 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…Gal 5:19 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[RandyK]

The error of justification by one's faith alone in Christ, is when their faith is only within, but not doing any good towards God and man.

I agree with nearly everything you're saying in this post. But I can't except the statement above. This is *not* the error of Justification by one's Faith Alone in Christ, because what you're saying adherants of this position believe is *not* what they believe!

I myself am an adherant of Faith Alone, but fully believe in what you say you believe here, that we should do good towards God and Man. There may be those who on the extreme Left believe that "Faith Alone" entitles them to Faith without Works, but the Mainstream position of Faith Alone adherants would admit that they should "do good towards God and Man!"

You are therefore misrepresenting Faith Alone by defining it differently. And even though Faith Alone may sound like what you're saying, it is only a small group of liberals who would define it and use it that way.

Good Conservative adherants of Faith Alone would fully support the need to add Works to their Faith--they just would not admit Works as part of the equation for receiving Salvation. For most of them, Works is to *follow* Faith that obtains Salvation.

In fact, some of them--maybe most of them--believe that not even Faith obtains Salvation. Many view both Faith and Works as a Gift from God. But they certainly do not deny either Faith or Works after obtaining Salvation as a Free Gift.

Personally, I think Faith is part of what obtains Salvation, not in the sense of earning it, but under the necessity that we *choose* for it. God has required, I think, that we exercise our volition in receiving Salvation so that it is not being imposed on us, but is rather being freely received by us.

Thanks for the conversation. Hopefully we can come to more agreement?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Derrick, I think the problem begins when Christians try to distinguish Christian Works from Christian Justification.

I know it does. Anyone trying by their faith and doctrine alone to separate their works from their justification, are seeking to separate their own works from themselves.

My works have condemned me as a bad Christian in the past, but I have never decieved myself into believing I was still justified by my faith in Christ alone. Which was not in Christ Jesus when doing unjustified things against Him.

What he does do is separate Independent Works from Christian Justification.

Amen brother. Thank you. It's always refreshing to hear Scripture's taught truly as written.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The faith of our Lord that justifies us, are only without, apart, and never by any of our works without Christ and His faith.

Heb 11:6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Rom 14:23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

What we do apart from Christ is a form of Legalism,

Not necessarily. Plenty of the lawless commit transgressions against God and man. Whether it is trespass with or with law, it's all death toward God.

Rom 2:12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

We must be, I feel, always connected to the "vine." So whatever works we do separate from this cord connecting us to Christ is self-inspired, or motivated by our own interests separate from Christ's interests.

And ,not of Christ nor through Christ nor with Christ at all.

Dead works are only of a dead limb separate from the true Vine Jesus Christ.

This doesn't mean we don't have freedom and cannot make our own decisions.

True. While there is is no freedom in the Vine to sin against the Vine. There is plenty of liberty in the law to make personal choices with faith in Jesus Christ.

1Co 8:8But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Col 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

[RBDERRICK]

But in reality, our works, though not justifying in themselves,

All works are judged in themselves, whether being good or evil.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

God's impartiality in judgment, is that the works judge us objectively by the righteousness of God.

Moral relativism rejects the objective standard between good and evil. Works are not good or evil in themselves, but are subject to the culture. Nudity is condemned in public in one place, while it is applauded in another place. Right and wrong becomes only according to what we believe is decent or not.

Christian moral relativism does the same thing, by preaching works are judged differently, according to what a person believes. One person is condemned by God, and another is not, solely according to the person's faith: I.e. justificaitona nd condemnation is only according to the person's faith alone.

Such moral relativism made by faith, subjects God's judgment of a person to their faith alone, and not by their works. If one believes he is condemned for unrighteousness, then God must condemn that one. But if one doesn't believe he is condemned for the same unrighteousness, then God cannot condemn that one.

That is why some continues to do unrighteous works, and declare by their faith alone in Christ, that God can no more condemn them.

The truth that is most feared and hated, is that God certainly does judge us all by works objectively, without respect of persons, which is without any respect to whether we believe it or not.

Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[RandyK]

I know it does. Anyone trying by their faith and doctrine alone to separate their works from their justification, are seeking to separate their own works from themselves.

My works have condemned me as a bad Christian in the past, but I have never decieved myself into believing I was still justified by my faith in Christ alone. Which was not in Christ Jesus when doing unjustified things against Him.

I think you're selling yourself short here, brother. Although I agree that we do not look good when we're doing wrong it doesn't mean we lose our Justification. To be "justified" in the sense of Redemption, or Salvation, has a much lower threshold. We don't have to get saved and re-saved every time we fall into error.

This is why Justification by Faith is so important, because it covers us even while we're sinners and slip up on occasion. It doesn't mean we're right to "slip up," but it saves us from this endless cycle of getting saved and re-saved.

We *all* slip up at times. This doesn't take away our Salvation--it just discredits our Christian reputation.

Not necessarily. Plenty of the lawless commit transgressions against God and man. Whether it is trespass with or with law, it's all death toward God.

That's true. I think I was referring to Christians who do things that are not inspired by Christ's love and Spirit. Christians who think they do good, while their hearts are duplicitous, are trying to justify themselves as if by the Law.

But yes, non-Christians obviously do things apart from Christ. It may be a surprise to you that I believe non-Christians and pagans can do things in accord with the Spirit of Christ? However, they do not do this consciously, of course, not being a believer. And they don't do it as re-born children of God either, whose nature it is to follow Christ.

The world does have a conscience given it to them by God from creation. They instinctively know right and wrong, to some degree. And if they aren't deceiving themselves, and follow the right path, they are actually following Christ ignorantly.

There may be many in Heaven who have followed Christ, in some measure, who will be forgiven by God not having a full knowledge of Christ. Remember what Paul said on the Aeropagus:

Acts 17. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

Dead works are only of a dead limb separate from the true Vine Jesus Christ.

Yep.

True. While there is is no freedom in the Vine to sin against the Vine. There is plenty of liberty in the law to make personal choices with faith in Jesus Christ.

This is an important one for me. Having lived the Christian life for all of my 70 years, and having walked in the Spirit for 50+ of those years I can tell you that there are times when God leaves it up to us to decide what good we're going to do today.

But inasmuch as we must always be in the Spirit we must always self-correct when we recognize that our definition of "good" is not God's definition of "good!" ;) We are "children" and not "servants." God gives us lots of leeway, but reserves the right to direct us when He pleases.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[RBDERRICK]

We are not Justified for Salvation by our Christian Works,

A man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ without having his own works, but no man is justified with disobedient bad works toward God.

And Christians naming Christ are more unjustified than all the world.

Jhn 19:11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Heb 6:5If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Crucifying Christ unto ourselves as Christians by disobeying Him, is delivering Him up to the Gentiles for open shame. Christian iniquity is greater sin than the unbelievers that don't name His name.

Not only are God's people not justifed while doing evil, we are condemned even greater than the world, if we are trasngressing His law. Having our faith alone in Christ, does not justify anyone naming His name and doing iniquity.

but our Works do need to be validated as legitimate Christian Works.

I.e. are works are judged by the Father to justify us as obedient sons, or to condemn us as children of disobedience.

And it is therefore our Faith in Christ that gives our Works validation.

I.e. our works become justified with the Father, through faith in His Son.

The only works justified by the Father, are good works done from a pure heart of faith by Jesus Christ. That is why all other works of righteousness without Christ, are filthy rags to God.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Good deeds are certainly done by the unbelievers, but works of our ownselves without Christ never justify them with God.

Even as faith of our ownselves, is not the faith of Jesus Christ.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

But it is also in remaining connected to Christ that validates our Works as done in Christ.

Which never includes any bad done by any man, whether naming Christ or not.

No man is connected to Jesus Christ, nor validated as having their faith in Jesus Christ, nor validated as doing works in Christ Jesus, at any time if and when doing evil and not good.

James 1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons... But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

His Redemption provided for us not just the ability to connect to Christ, but it also provides for our ability to stay connected to him, and to do good works through him.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

No man is justified by his own works, nor born of God by his own will and faith alone. But only by the will and faith of God is man given power to do good in Christ Jesus.

3 John{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

No one doing unrighteousness is born of God, nor has the faith of Jesus Christ toward God. And the gift of His faith unto righteousness, is only given with power to them, that repent from their own works without Christ:

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

We do need to be careful with the word "justification" to be clear about what it is.

Justification of God is by receiving the faith of Jesus Christ, and faithfully doing the will of God.

The recieving is first, and the doing is continuous.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

But we also need to be careful to require of us what it means in terms to remaining connected to Christ and doing good works.

The justifying faith of Jesus Christ requires we faithfully do good toward God and man.

Anything required by God to be justified by faith, other than having faith alone in Christ, is anathema to them that declare they are never justified by their works. (And they should know, since they are speaking of their own works, not the works of others.)

The error of justification by Jesus Christ is a two-sided coin: One is being justified by faith alone in Christ, apart and separate from any works we do. The other is requiring we do any work to become justified by faith in Jesus Christ.

The former preaches justification by faith alone in Christ, including if and when doing a work of the flesh; such as fornication, drunkenness, theft, lying, profane cursing, bitter envying, etc...

The latter preaches a work be done, in order for faith in Jesus Christ to justify the soul; such as outward circumcision, water baptism, doing a good deed, or keeping a work of law.

The true gold of Jesus Christ repents to recieve the faith of Jesus Christ, to be justified in not having our own works, and being justified in doing only His good works from a pure heart.

Even the heathen would never say a man is not justified in doing good with a pure heart. The evil man may not want any good done to his enemies, but Jesus Christ justifies doing good to our enemies and neighbors.

 

[RBDERRICK]

are an integral part of our Salvation. Works are in fact part of the "faith" that accepts Christ's Justification!

There is no Scripture whatsoever for accepting Christ, nor accepting His justfication.

 

[RandyK]

There is no Scripture whatsoever for accepting Christ, nor accepting His justfication.

We've already been down this path, remember? I define "accepting Christ" differently than you do. When people are encouraged to accept Jesus as Messiah, such as on the Day of Pentecost, they did "accept" Christ.

 

[RandyK]

A man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ without having his own works, but no man is justified with disobedient bad works toward God.

I do not accept that interpretation of the passage you're referring to. We do not accept anything by the "faith of Jesus Christ." Rather, we accept Christ by our own faith.

And Christians naming Christ are more unjustified than all the world.

You are conflating the general definition of "unjustified" with the more technical definition referring to "Justification by Faith." Many Christians who are already saved, having received Christ's Justification by their faith, are not "justified" in doing wrong. Christians make errors. They do not thereby lose their Salvation.

No man is connected to Jesus Christ, nor validated as having their faith in Jesus Christ, nor validated as doing works in Christ Jesus, at any time if and when doing evil and not good.

Still, you confuse the general concept of "justification" with the technical definition of "Justification." The technical meaning of Justification refers to what Christ did before many of us were even born. Jesus died for our sins on the cross so that whoever receives that atonement for sin will be "Justified" in the sense they have a ticket to get into Heaven.

This does not require godliness to accept it. And it doesn't require godliness to keep it. Just acceptance of Jesus as our atonement gets us the ticket to get into Heaven.

When it comes to doing good Works, that is another thing entirely. We do that because when we truly receive Christ he gives us his own nature, and we *want* to do good works. We want to help others. We want others to get their ticket too.

So when we are truly Justified, we have become born again and have a new nature, wanting to do the right thing. Still, we are human, and we can suffer damages from our past, addictions in the present, and future temptations may drag us down.

That doesn't change the fact we accepted Christ as our atonement, acknowledging his way as our chosen path. Failure along the way is not ultimate failure.

I feel you'll disagree on this one, and we'll just have to let it go. Good luck getting saved over and over and over again!

The big thing to me is to know you've truly received Christ in the 1st place, receiving that New Nature. If you get that far, you'll be more than half the way there!

The reason we are Justified by Faith Alone and not by our own works is because Christ alone did the work of saving us, knowing that our record would never pass the test. It was not to enable us to do wrong, but to enable us to walk in his Spirit even though we were disqualified by our failures to obtain Eternal Life.

You seem to think Grace is a license to sin. On the contrary, it is a license to obtain a New Nature that doesn't want to sin, that doesn't have to live in sin. Until we are fully redeemed physically, however, we will remain somewhat unworthy.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, there are "false sheep" in our churches, but I believe God is calling all, and we should expect all kinds to show up in churches. God is the God of all men and women--we should not discriminate.

Moral relativists hate any discrimination by how we live.

The Scriptures are plain about not keeping Christian company with known doers of evil. Otherwise we become guilty of partaking of their sins by consent.

However, when it comes to congregating, I would only take action with those bringing their sin into the church doors.

 

[RBDERRICK]

My personal belief is that many will "get to heaven" who are not fully living for God now.

Of course, because God is not finished redeeming them that fully repent.

The problem however with the double minded, that also justify it as acceptable for life, is they likely will keep doing their sins unto death.

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I don't waste any prayer on anyone naming Christ, and openly accusing God's holy apostles of double heartedness, and even of being the chiefest of sinners, just to justify themselves and their own continued manner of disobedience to God.

False Sheep, however, will not be saved. The criteria for Salvation is a love for Christ and a willingness to submit to his Lordship.

Which begins with whole repentance from dead works.

Unfortunately, many Christians skip that part of the gospel, that Scripture always begins with. Talking of loving God and willingness to serve Him, without first hating and repenting of doing evil, sounds nice, but is no good at all.

Heb 1:18 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Afterall, moral relativism also defines loving, as well as evil, only according to one's own beliefs.

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Though not all succeed in this in this life, just their willingness to do so will get them there, I believe.

Then be partaker of their unrepentance by your own opinion alone, if you share it with them that repent not.

I would never say any such thing, must less share it with someone in need of repentance.

God's commands are to do, not to only be willing, nor to only try. That is where bad Christian sinners and good Christian saints differ: one is willing and certainly does try, but fails to keep the commandment. The other simply keeps the commandment.

That difference is made by one thing: the difference between only half repenting by one's own faith, vs whole repentance to recieve the faith of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Weakness does not prevent people from "getting to heaven."

No, just disobeying God.

Another relativism is mixing sinning with 'struggling', and 'weakness' with ungodliness.

The weakest member of the body of Jesus Christ, is living holy in all their manners. But they have a strong fight not to disobey Him.

That is when the grace of God is truly given greatest for us, that we may endure temptation and tribulation with obedience to the will of God, and not be moved to disobey Him:

2Co 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Infirmities are weaknesses in the body, not tresspases with the flesh.

 

[RandyK]

Of course, because God is not finished redeeming them that fully repent.

The problem however with the double minded, that also justify it as acceptable for life, is they likely will keep doing their sins unto death.

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I don't waste any prayer on anyone naming Christ, and openly accusing God's holy apostles of double heartedness, and even of being the chiefest of sinners, just to justify themselves and their own continued manner of disobedience to God.


Which begins with whole repentance from dead works.

Unfortunately, many Christians skip that part of the gospel, that Scripture always begins with. Talking of loving God and willingness to serve Him, without first hating and repenting of doing evil, sounds nice, but is no good at all.

Heb 1:18 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Afterall, moral relativism also defines loving, as well as evil, only according to one's own beliefs.

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


Then be partaker of their unrepentance by your own opinion alone, if you share it with them that repent not.

I would never say any such thing, must less share it with someone in need of repentance.



No, just disobeying God.

Another relativism is mixing sinning with 'struggling', and 'weakness' with ungodliness.

The weakest member of the body of Jesus Christ, is living holy in all their manners. But they have a strong fight not to disobey Him.

That is when the grace of God is truly given greatest for us, that we may endure temptation and tribulation with obedience to the will of God, and not be moved to disobey Him:

2Co 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Infirmities are weaknesses in the body, not tresspases with the flesh.

I'll repeat what I just added to my last post:

The reason we are Justified by Faith Alone and not by our own works is because Christ alone did the work of saving us, knowing that our record would never pass the test. It was not to enable us to do wrong, but to enable us to walk in his Spirit even though we were disqualified by our failures to obtain Eternal Life.

You seem to think Grace is a license to sin. On the contrary, it is a license to obtain a New Nature that doesn't want to sin, that doesn't have to live in sin. Until we are fully redeemed physically, however, we will remain somewhat unworthy.

It is false to claim that compassion on weakness is evil and allowing people to sin. Jesus came and had compassion on "bruised reeds."

You need to recognize your cold-heartedness, brother. I think you're probably even too hard on yourself? We tend to get hard on ourselves when we've failed in the past, and want to get back on the right track.

Grace is not permission to sin. It's a way to get back to righteousness when we lived a life of sin, and for those who have been reborn but have failed in some way. Grace is God's love for people who want to get back on the wagon.

 

[RBDERRICK]

So, when someone says we are justified by faith alone, they mean we are justified by faith in Christ and his work on the cross.

My previous challenge to this was left unanswered. You must have missed it, because you were gone from the thread for a while.

Are you saying a man is saved by believing only in Jesus Christ's death at the cross?

No man is saved by faith in Jesus Christ's death alone at the cross.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We must believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead confessing Him Lord Jesus, to be saved.

Faith in His death alone for our sins does not save any man's soul, but only acknowledges the truth, that all sinners are guilty of His death at the hands of sinful man.

We must repent and believe only in the resurrected Jesus Christ, to be saved and justified by Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

we are justified by faith in Christ and his work on the cross.

And, no believer also needs to believe your or anyone else's personal teaching of His death and work on the cross, in order to be saved by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That is a doctrinal proselitization to one's own personal faith, akin to proselytizing by works.

Act 15:1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

No man must believe in Jesus Christ's resurrection and be circumcised, else ye cannot be saved.

No man must believe Jesus Christ's resurrection and His work on the cross, else ye cannot be saved.

No doctrine nor work must be added to anyone's faith in the resurrected Jesus confessing Him Lord, else he cannot be saved.

That makes having the faith of our resurrected Lord of none effect to save the soul, until a certain doctrine is also believed, or a certain work is also done.

We are only saved by faith in Jesus Christ's resurrection confessing Him Lord, not by faith in His death alone, nor by any teaching on His death at the cross.

 

[brother Paul]

Rev
{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Notice in His address to the churches, Jesus only says He knows our works. He never says, I know your faith. That's because the righteous Lord judges our faith only by our works, as in James 2.

Lukewarm faith of lukewarm believers therefore, is known by works, that are neither cold nor hot, neither good nor evil.

Lukewarm works neither do only good, nor only evil, but do both evil and good.

Gen
{3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The promise of the devil is made when a son sins and disobeys God: to be as a god knowing they are now doing both evil and good.

The Lord's command to the lukewarm doers of both good and evil, is the same to all men everywhere: Get hot and repent from all the sinning and trespassing, and only do His good will on earth.

Lukewarm faith is with lukewarm repentance, that only results in doing both evil and good, more or less.

The lukewarm religion is by the lukewarm faith of only seeking to sin less than before, not to sin no more and only do that which pleases the Father and the Son.

John
{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The pure religion of Jesus Christ is only hot to sin not and do His good pleasure. Being hot and alive in Christ Jesus, is keeping ourselves from sinning with the world, by doing His will only.

The faith of lukewarm repenters only seeks to do more good than evil, and sin less. The sinless faith of Jesus Christ is is only for them that repent of all sins and trespasses, so as to only do good for His name's sake.

Amen! Notice our Lord's concern (Matthew 25;:31-46). Now these works do not save but the saved eventually become concerned with these things. They become conformed to His image having the same Spirit within (Romans 8:9). This is our appropriate self sacrifice (ISAIAH 58:6-12; Romans 12:1-2).

 

[Free]

My previous challenge to this was left unanswered. You must have missed it, because you were gone from the thread for a while.

Are you saying a man is saved by believing only in Jesus Christ's death at the cross?

No man is saved by faith in Jesus Christ's death alone at the cross.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We must believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead confessing Him Lord Jesus, to be saved.

Faith in His death alone for our sins does not save any man's soul, but only acknowledges the truth, that all sinners are guilty of His death at the hands of sinful man.

We must repent and believe only in the resurrected Jesus Christ, to be saved and justified by Him.

This last statement is, at best, misleading. You're making division where there is none, being needlessly divisive and sinfully judgemental of those with whom you disagree.

What you don't seem to understand is that the resurrected Christ is the crucified Christ. The two ideas cannot and must not be separated. He was crucified as a propitiation for our sins on our behalf, and that must be stated, understood, and believed as well as that he was raised again.

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
...
1Co 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (ESV)

Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (ESV)

Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. (ESV)

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (ESV)

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. (ESV)

For some reason, you seem to think that if someone preaches the work of Christ on the cross, it somehow means they don't believe the resurrection is necessary. However, since you only preach the resurrected Christ as necessary, I could use the same reasoning you do and say that you teach that Christ's crucifixion isn't necessary. For a person to be saved they must know that Jesus didn't die of influenza and then was raised again, he was crucified, bearing in his flesh the penalty for our sin so that we could be clothed in his righteousness.

But, I know the resurrection is necessary and so I know that you know there can be no meaningful resurrection if there was no crucifixion and shedding of blood. Likewise, common sense should tell you that if I teach the crucifixion, I also know that the resurrection was necessary.

It also seems that you don't understand what the main difference is--the work of Christ was the on cross; the work of the Trinity was the resurrection.