Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

I see little difference in "justification by faith alone," and "justification by grace alone?"

Me neither. Neither of them is quoted from Scripture.

I was just a little shocked by someone actually quoting the Scripture to me accurately for the first time, without adding their word 'alone' to the Scripture. Especially since their past habit had never failed to add it.

I was just curious as to why. But iut doesn't realloy matter. I know that anyone's faith alone in Christ, is not my faith in Christ.

I don't preach any faith alone at all. If for no other reason, than the Bible only condemns any faith alone as being dead to God and man.

If only my faith in Christ counts, and not faith in anything else, including myself, the implication is that I'm relying on Christ, ie I'm relying on his grace.

You are preaching a kind of faith alone, that is not the faith alone that justifies, apart from works, and never by works.

The argument is not against only believing in Jesus Christ, and no other christ nor god. I only argue from Scripture against preaching a person is always justified by their faith alone, no matter what works they are doing at the time.

Do you believe you are justified by your faith in Christ, if you are disobeying Him in unrighteousness? If a believer is being drunk, or fornicating, or both at the same time, is that 'bad' Christian still justified by their faith alone in Christ?

 

[RandyK]

Me neither. Neither of them is quoted from Scripture.

I was just a little shocked by someone actually quoting the Scripture to me accurately for the first time, without adding their word 'alone' to the Scripture. Especially since their past habit had never failed to add it.

I was just curious as to why. But iut doesn't realloy matter. I know that anyone's faith alone in Christ, is not my faith in Christ.

I don't preach any faith alone at all. If for no other reason, than the Bible only condemns any faith alone as being dead to God and man.

Yea, I see this as a language problem. What one person means by "faith alone" means something different to another. So what really matters is how we're using the term?

Luther used "Faith Alone" to focus on how he was defining it--he was not trying to mistranslate Scripture--he was in fact a good translator! Rather, he was defining "Faith" as he saw the Bible define it, as separate from anything having to do with our Works independent of God.

And so, Luther defined "Faith" as "Faith Alone," ie "Faith apart from Independent Human Works." After all, that is precisely how Paul defined it, "not of works, lest any man should boast."

There was no thought, therefore, of a "Faith Alone" that existed apart from God's Word--only a "Faith" that was completely connected to God's Word. It was this Faith Alone that was true "Faith" for Paul, ie a Faith that is necessarily connected to God's Word so that it is not associated with anything else, consisting of independent human works.

Do you believe you are justified by your faith in Christ, if you are disobeying Him in unrighteousness? If a believer is being drunk, or fornicating, or both at the same time, is that 'bad' Christian still justified by their faith alone in Christ?

No, I don't think you understand my pov. True "Faith" for me is connected to God's Word. So when we obey Him, our works are connected to God's Word and as such, represent true "Faith Alone," ie Faith that subtracts from it Independent Human Works.

If our Works are connected to God's Word they are not Independent Works. Thus, they are genuine biblical "Faith."

 

[RBDERRICK]

Faith is opposed to our works without Christ.

True. The faith of Jesus Christ is opposed to anyone still doing their own works without Christ.

Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

God's gift of Jesus' righteous faith is only given to them, that repent of our own dead works, and are sprinkled with His blood from on high. (Not by His natural blood from upon a cross.)

We have faith in Christ because faith in ourselves doesn't work.

True. Having faith apart from doing good, doesn't work to justify the believer, since their faith is within themselves alone.

The faith of Jesus Christ is not of ourselves, nor in ourselves alone, but is only given by grace to them, that repent of our own will, faith, and works without Christ.

Mar 8:34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

We have to trust in someone outside of ourselves, and that is Christ alone!

Jesus Christ is only outside the transgressors, that have not His faith.

Heb 7:26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

But He is now within them that repent of their own transgressors, and recieve Him and His righteous faith and power by grace.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

No one having the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, is transgressing His law. And no one transgressing His law, has the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Transgressors doing no good, only have their faith in themselves, not in Jesus Christ.

James 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

1 John 3:17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Jas 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The error of justification by one's faith alone in Christ, is when their faith is only within, but not doing any good towards God and man.

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Again, I do not wish to speak for Free, but it seems obvious to me that he is saying "our own faith alone" is not what justifies us.

You don't, but those preaching justification by their faith alone in Christ, "apart from and never by works", certainly are.

You need to learn what others are preaching, before trying to impute your own teaching to them.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Faith Alone," as opposed to what?

Faith with works.

Faith in Christ is always with works, because His faith is never alone without works, and certainly not with any bad works.

Jhn 8:29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Anyone disobeying God is left alone by the Father and the Son. And any faith they have is their own alone without Jesus Christ.

That is Justification by Faith in Christ alone. It is not Faith in any other source.

The Scripture argument is only against being justified by having a faith in Christ, that is accompanied with doing evil.

Neither their faith nor justification is in Christ Jesus, but in another source called Christ.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

It is *not* saying that our own faith, irregardless of what our faith is placed in, justifies us!

How about regardless of what we are doing at the time?

What we are doing proves what our faith is place in. If we are doing unrighteousness, our faith is in ourselves. If we are doing His righteousness, our faith is in Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

You are apparently misrepresenting what "Faith Alone" really intends to say and mean. Do you realize that's what you're doing?

Do you realize you are not preaching the faith alone in Christ, that justifies the soul while obeying or disobeying God?

"Faith Alone" is intending to mean, at least from my perspective, "Faith in Christ Alone!"

Does that include if and when doing unrighteousness against God?

Are you still justified by your faith alone in Christ, if you are also disobeying Him in unrighteous works of of the flesh?

1 Cor 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…Gal 5:19 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[RandyK]

The error of justification by one's faith alone in Christ, is when their faith is only within, but not doing any good towards God and man.

I agree with nearly everything you're saying in this post. But I can't except the statement above. This is *not* the error of Justification by one's Faith Alone in Christ, because what you're saying adherants of this position believe is *not* what they believe!

I myself am an adherant of Faith Alone, but fully believe in what you say you believe here, that we should do good towards God and Man. There may be those who on the extreme Left believe that "Faith Alone" entitles them to Faith without Works, but the Mainstream position of Faith Alone adherants would admit that they should "do good towards God and Man!"

You are therefore misrepresenting Faith Alone by defining it differently. And even though Faith Alone may sound like what you're saying, it is only a small group of liberals who would define it and use it that way.

Good Conservative adherants of Faith Alone would fully support the need to add Works to their Faith--they just would not admit Works as part of the equation for receiving Salvation. For most of them, Works is to *follow* Faith that obtains Salvation.

In fact, some of them--maybe most of them--believe that not even Faith obtains Salvation. Many view both Faith and Works as a Gift from God. But they certainly do not deny either Faith or Works after obtaining Salvation as a Free Gift.

Personally, I think Faith is part of what obtains Salvation, not in the sense of earning it, but under the necessity that we *choose* for it. God has required, I think, that we exercise our volition in receiving Salvation so that it is not being imposed on us, but is rather being freely received by us.

Thanks for the conversation. Hopefully we can come to more agreement?