Lukewarm believers and faith

[Free]

None of these words, other than the error of calling it faith alone, is what is being argued against.

The argument is against being justified by any faith alone in Christ, that is also apart from any works we do or don't do.

No, that is the gospel. I've gone through this with you numerous times. If being justified required works, then that isn't good news at all and no different from any other religion.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

The teaching that we are not justified by any works we do is as clear as the teaching that Jesus was crucified, died, and rose again.

First is the example of having any faith in the Lord, while evilly having respect of persons in the family of God, due to social status and wealth.

I don't know what you're saying here.

The second example is of having any faith toward God and man, when not doing any good at hand, not loving our neighbors as ourselves.

In both cases, the person's faith in Christ is rejected by God, as unrighteous faith toward Himself, by doing unrighteousness, and secondly as being dead faith toward God and man, by doing no good at hand.

James 1-2 is judging our faith in the Lord by works, as being righteous and alive, or unrighteous and dead.

Which is speaking of obedience that is evidence of already having been justified; those works absolutely do not justify.

If any man trusts in his faith alone

Do you realize this doesn't make sense and no one is arguing this?

And any Christ that the decieved believer is trusting in, to justify us apart from the works we do, is another Christ of another gospel, not our Lord Jesus Christ according to the Scripture.

Incorrect. Adding works to justification is a false gospel and Paul says anyone teaching that is to be considered accursed. His words, not mine.

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)

And none of the doctrinal speeches for being justified by any faith in Christ, while doing no good, can change that simple truth. The true Christ of God has no respect for, or respect any faith in Him, if we are doing evil and not doing good.

Okay, but I don't see what this has to do with anything in this discussion.

Some supplemental false doctrines for having faith alone in Christ, apart from works include: There is now no more condemnation for doing unrighteousness,

This is blatantly false and a misrepresentation of what justification by faith alone means.

by grace God cannot see our sinning,

This is blatantly false and a misrepresentation of what justification by faith alone means.

by spiritual resurrection alone we are now and forever reigning with Christ,

What, exactly, do you mean by this?

our soul is justified not our works,

Of course. Please provide just one verse that says our works are justified.

what we do is not who we are,

This is blatantly false and a misrepresentation of what justification by faith alone means.

repentance is of the mind alone not of works,

This is blatantly false and a misrepresentation of what justification by faith alone means.

having eternal security of the soul apart from the works we do,

This is blatantly false and a misrepresentation of what justification by faith alone means.

complete justification at once with incomplete gradual sanctification, etc...

We are justified at once, at the moment we are imputed the righteousness of Christ. That happens when we repent and put our trust in Christ and his work. I have also stated before that the NT clearly speaks of sanctification as something that has happened and something that continues to happen. It is spoken of in both past and present tense.

I've already given the Scripture enough time, that says God's washing, sanctification, and justification are in the same way and at the same time: All complete at once.

That's fine. I've given Scripture many times that shows our sanctification is also ongoing.

 

[Free]

Scripture does not contradict Scripture. The only thing clear is contradicting Scripture by declaring no man is justified by works.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

{2:25} Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I have shown you many times, even in THIS THREAD that you simply do not understand the meanings of "justification" and so have Paul contradicting James with the same passage. But, here it is again:

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
…
Rom 4:23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (ESV)

First, Paul says that “if Abraham was justified by works,” which obviously implies that he wasn’t justified by works, he has nothing to “boast about . . . before God.” Why? Because “to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.” Second, Paul quotes Gen 15:6 which states, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” That is, Abraham’s righteousness was counted to him on the basis of faith, not on a work or works. Third, Paul states that it is the one who believes, “who does not work,” that “his faith is counted as righteousness.” Which goes right back to Abraham, showing that he didn’t do any work; it was by faith alone.

Fourth, notice the use of “justifies” (v.5) and “justification” (v. 25)—in relation to Jesus being “delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification”—which clearly indicate Paul is talking about being declared righteous. He ties that in with the reason as to why “it was counted to him” was written for our sake (v. 24). Paul is saying that it is on the basis of faith alone in God that we are declared righteous, just as Abraham was. Notice also that Christ’s work on the cross and his resurrection are the basis for our justification; it is his righteousness imputed to us. He did the work, so it is not by any works we do. And that goes back to verses 2-5.

Throughout this passage, Paul’s point is that Abraham was not justified (declared righteous) by any works, but by believing in God, which is how we are also justified. If there is even one work, then it is not a gift, but what is owed us.

Not only is that the point Paul makes in Rom 4, that is the point he makes in Eph 2, where he also mentions the purpose of good works:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

So, I fully agree that Scripture does not contradict Scripture, but your incorrect understanding of justification makes these two passages contradict.

Works are only righteous by being justified with God. There are no righteous works that are not justified with God.


Only unrighteous works are unjustified with God.

Again, please provide one verse that says works are justified, or unjustified.

Your continual, purposeful misrepresentation of others' positions is a significant problem. I don't think you're even trying to understand what others are saying, because most everyone else has told you do not even understand what justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone means, yet you continually repeat your misunderstandings as though you're speaking truth.

The heart of this discussion is that you will not do actual study and learn what the meanings of "justification" are in Scripture, which leads to 1) teaching a false gospel, 2) make Paul contradict James, and 3) your continual false misrepresentation of what others believe.

 

[Free]

The error is adding works to faith, before we can be justified by Christ through His faith. Such as, circumcision, water baptism, communion, eucharist, a good deed, etc...

Adding good and righteous works to our faith in Christ, is necessary to abide in the true Vine, and make our salvation and justification sure, by not falling to temptation and unrighteousness.

Of course, but righteous works do not justify us.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

The righteous faith of Jesus Christ is the gift freely given by grace to any man, that repents from all his own works without Christ.

Where is that given in Scripture? Do you mean "the righteous faith of Jesus" or "the righteousness of Jesus"?

And also so far as God is concerned, who knows the hearts of men and women, when repenting from dead works.


Which of course contradicts itself being at the same time. Neither repentance nor faith toward God is before the other.

Faith must logically come first, because we are dead in our sins and only a work of the Holy Spirit can cause us to want to repent.

The only faith that preceeds repentance from dead works, is the unrepented sinner's own faith and lust to continue sinning, not the faith and righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Please use biblical terms correctly, as the Bible uses them, as it is quite confusing trying to figure out what you're saying. There is no such thing, biblically, as "the unrepentant sinner's own faith."

And, that doctrine of any faith preceeding repentance, always precedes preaching either no repentance, or lukewarm repentance in time. Either of which are only at man's own will and time, not by commandment of God's whole repentance granted unto salvation, justification, righteousness, and holy life in Jesus Christ.

I really don't know what you're saying here.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But the scripture imprisoned 1 everything and everyone 2 under sin so that the promise could be given – because of the faithfulness 3 of Jesus Christ – to those who believe.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

A translation to conclude all things under sin, is false in order to teach a false doctrine. Only created beings such as angels and men can be concluded under sin by transgression of law of God.

The created heavens and the earth, and all things therein are not concluded under sin, just because an angel in heaven sinned, and a man on earth sinned. The ground of the earth may be cursed to man, to only bring forth fruit by sweat of man, but the earth is not concluded a sinner thereby. Dust and grass don't sin against God. Neither do stubborn mules.

Rom 11:32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Them be men and women only, not them birds and bees.

If you learn the discipline of teaching any Scripture by all Scripture, then you can avoid teaching one Scripture alone, apart from other Scripture. It's called isolated teaching of Scripture, that is usually done for false doctrine.

Teaching Scripture in context includes all Scriptures in the Bible.

The NET notes that the particular Greek phrase is viewed by some scholars today as being "the faithfulness of Jesus Christ" as opposed to "faith in Jesus Christ."

As I said, I don't do translation arguments. I choose one translation to teach my Bible from, and have discipline to stick with that.

And proper translation is only of each word at a time, not a doctrinal paraphrasing of Scripture to teach something else than the words written.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Of course, your point does not hold regardless, that people do not exercise their faith in Christ.

Of course, you now misinterpret what I teach. Certainly, it's our faith in Christ, even as Scripture confirms, that we must add His virtue and godliness to our faith in our Lord.

Our faith is the faith of Jesus Christ given and obtained by us with repentance from dead works.

Our faith obtained from Jesus Christ, is not the faith we had before repentance, which was sin and unrighteousness to God.

2Pe 1:1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Even as it's His salvation we must obtain through faith toward God, so must we first obtain Jesus' faith through repentance unto salvation.

All men that sin must repent of their own will and works and sinful faith. No sinner's faith toward God is the faith of Jesus Christ pleasing to God.

The faithfulness of Christians is equally important to the faithfulness of Christ.

Man can only be faithful to God by having the righteous and true faith toward God. That is the faith of Jesus Christ the righteous, and is only given by grace to them, that repent from dead works for His name and faith's sake.

The faith that Jesus lived by on earth, by which He always did those things pleasing to the Father, is the faith we must recieve and obtain to faithfully do His righteous will and good pleasure.

The fact Christ is faithful does not mean believers do not exercise faith!

The fact that saints in Christ Jesus have His faith, means they can exercise His faith in righteousness toward God at all times.

I have not denied this. As I've said several times now, God's Word 1st comes to us, and then we respond to it.

The word is the command to repent. The promise is to be forgiven by grace through the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ in well doing, being delivered from lust and sins of the world.

Mark{1:15} The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

2Th 1:6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The gospel promise is only believed by repentance from dead works. The gospel is only obeyed by repenting from dead works.

If you reject my argument fine.

Dittoes

But you're not even addressing it!

Give one example. If I missed it, then I'll be glad to respond.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Let me just simply say that I believe in Justification by faith in Christ, because he is the atonement--not my works.

Agreed. We've repented of doing our own works without Christ. Now by grace we only do works justified through His faith alive in us.

And I believe that after having accepted his atonement we display genuine faith by living accordingly, by living through him and not independently of him.

Agreed. No man doing unrighteousness is sprinkled with the blood of the Lamb and atoned for.

Only them that repent of their unrighteousness, can be sprinkled with the resurrected Jesus Christ's blood of holy sanctification and obedience toward God.

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Attacking the belief in "Faith Alone" as it is practiced by Nominal Christians

I don't attack anyone's faith, but only defend the faith of our Lord in Scripture. I defend the gospel faith of Jesus Christ from any sinful faith of man preached in His name.

Phl 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

is not justified when others practice it properly.

So far, perhaps you have not been clear enough about your doctrine of faith alone. Is your justifying faith alone in Christ, apart from works you do, or only with the things you do?

Are you justified by your faith alone in Christ, if you are doing unrighteousness?

You might as well as attack all Christians because some people take the doctrine of Grace as an excuse to sin.

I don't attack any Christian. I accept all Christian confessions of faith in person. (Unless of course they are flaunting their sin in my face.)

However, that certainly does not apply to every Christian's teaching for doctrine of Christ. Disputing in the Scriptures is not attacking, but only defending. If someone gets offended by opposition of Scriptures given, then they should keep their doctrine to themselves, or only keep it between them that agree.

Gal 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Is the apostle of the Lord attacking other gospels, or only defending the righteous and true gospel of Jesus Christ?

So "Faith Alone" works for me as long as we are able to explain what we mean--something that you also are recommending. I can explain it not as if Faith alone is our justification, but that Faith only in Christ, as displayed through our repentance, is our justification.

Sounds good to me. And so long as you do not go on to preach the sinner's faith alone justifying the soul, while doing any unrighteousness, then we have no oppostion from Scripture.

Other than naming any faith alone in the name of Christ, of course.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Colossians 1.22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The death of Jesus Christ was the necessary means to the end determined by God, not the end in itself.

His death by shed blood was necessary, that He might rise again for sprinkling of His blood only upon them that repent.

The atonement of God by blood is not made, without sprinkling of the blood upon the people.

I don't know why you argue that Christ's death must conform to the rules of the Law, which was under an entirely different covenant?

The shadow of the law was blood of bulls and goats. The pattern of the heavenly is shedding and sprinkling of blood.

Peter does say that Christ's blood was "sprinkled" just like it was under the Law.

Exactly. According to the pattern made by law with shedding and sprinkling of blood.

His natural blood was shed at the cross, and His spiritual blood is sprinkled by His resurrection.

But Christ's death did not take place under Temple Law.

Nonsensical. Jesus Christ lived and died under old covenant law of Moses.

If you are saying that His atonement was not made under law of Moses at the cross, because His blood was not sprinkled by law, then that is correct.

The pattern for the heavenly, is shedding and sprinkling of blood to make atonement for sins.

Scripture confirms the pattern is fulfilled, by the blood of resurrected Jesus Christ being now sprinkled upon His obedient people.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Resurrection was not the forgiveness that Christ offered.

Nonsensical. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was not a forgivneness of any man, but proof to all men, that He is indeed the Son of God as He said, and was illegally put to death for blasphemy.

Romans{1:3} Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; {1:4} And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

If you are trying to say the resurrection of Jesus Christ is not necessary to be forgiven, redeemed, and born again. Then just say so.

It was our offence against Christ that was forgiven, namely his rejection and suffering on the cross.

Not at the cross by His death alone. Only by His resurrection with command to repent for His mercies sake.

The resurrection was a byproduct of who Jesus was.

Matth 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned…for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


The resurrection of Jesus Christ is not just a byproduct of anything.

Unless he was God, his death for our sins would've meant nothing more than forgiveness.

If he was not the Son of God, then there would be nothing more than more guilt of sinful man, for killing another innocent and righteous man contrary to law of God and man.

Pilate also acted contrary to the justice of Rome, when washing his hands from the blood of an innocent man, that he himself confessed had done nothing worthy of death under Roman law.

All would die and not be resurrected.

Scripture prophecies before Jesus Christ rose from the dead, that all will be resurrected unto life or condemnation.

Only by His resurrection from the dead can any man repent of His shed blood, and be sprinkled in sanctification and righteousness, the Jew first and also the Gentile.

From what I see, your faith alone in Christ, is only in His death alone for atonement, forgiveness of sins, and redemption.

Do you also preach your faith alone in Christ alone, is in His finished work on the cross, for forgiveness, imputed righteousness, and justification, by faith His death alone?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, and that's why the cross is the means of redemption, because it deals with our guilt.

True. His death is the means to the end of His resurrection from the dead.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Shedding the blood is the means of sprinkling the blood.

Do you now say that your teaching of faith in Christ alone for justification, is in His death alone?

Are you justified by having faith alone in His death, apart from works you do?

 

[RandyK]

From what I see, your faith alone in Christ, is only in His death alone for atonement, forgiveness of sins, and redemption.

As I told you, "Faith Alone" is not to be understood by the words alone, lacking context. In context, the term refers to Christian Faith, as opposed to non-Christian Faith or Faith in one's own Works, distinct from Christ's Spirit.

If you don't even understand what "Faith Alone" means, how can you argue it? Actually, you can't!

Do you also preach your faith alone in Christ alone, is in His finished work on the cross, for forgiveness, imputed righteousness, and justification, by faith His death alone?

Faith in Christ encompasses all that Christ represents, his atonement, as well as his gift of resurrection to believers. Atonement took place on the cross. The resurrection substantiated who it was that died on the cross, namely the Son of God, who had power not just to forgive our sins but also the power to raise us from the dead.

I grow weary of arguing "Faith Alone" with someone who doesn't even understand what the term means.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But I've already given you Scriptures to prove that it is the blood of Christ, shed on the cross, that provides an atonement for our sins.

No, you've only taught your version of an atonement for killing and shedding blood alone, without sprinkling the blood upon the people.

That is what the "sprinkling of Christ's blood" refers to--not his resurrection.

So, rather than the atonement made by shedding of blood alone, you acknowledge the blood must both be shed and sprinkled. But rather than allowing the Spirit to sprinkle His blood after the resurrection, you insist the shedding must be the sprinkling. A kind of shed-sprinkling or sprinkle-shedding of blood unto death? (Where is English language principle when you need it?)

A by product of changing Scripture of truth for one's own imagination, is not only making no sense, but also demands changing more Scripture to keep the error going.

The Bible atonement made by shedding and sprinkling of blood, is not at the same time.

Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

The atonment was not made by shedding the blood upon the altar and the people. The blood that makes atonement is not sprinkled by the sacrifice bleeding out over the people.

Exo 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

As in all blood sacrifices of God, the blood is first shed, collected, and only then after death is taken by the priest and sprinkled accordingly.
So, what priest took from the blood of Jesus Christ pooled on the ground at the foot of the cross, and sprinkled it?And, upon what and who to make atonement?

Jesus Christ did not make atonement for any man at the cross, much less for the crucifiers, by bleeding on them as they nailed Him thereon.

 

[RandyK]

No, you've only taught your version of an atonement for killing and shedding blood alone, without sprinkling the blood upon the people.




So, rather than the atonement made by shedding of blood alone, you acknowledge the blood must both be shed and sprinkled. But rather than allowing the Spirit to sprinkle His blood after the resurrection, you insist the shedding must be the sprinkling. A kind of shed-sprinkling or sprinkle-shedding of blood unto death? (Where is English language principle when you need it?)

A by product of changing Scripture of truth for one's own imagination, is not only making no sense, but also demands changing more Scripture to keep the error going.

The Bible atonement made by shedding and sprinkling of blood, is not at the same time.

Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

The atonment was not made by shedding the blood upon the altar and the people. The blood that makes atonement is not sprinkled by the sacrifice bleeding out over the people.

Exo 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

As in all blood sacrifices of God, the blood is first shed, collected, and only then after death is taken by the priest and sprinkled accordingly.
So, what priest took from the blood of Jesus Christ pooled on the ground at the foot of the cross, and sprinkled it?And, upon what and who to make atonement?

Jesus Christ did not make atonement for any man at the cross, much less for the crucifiers, by bleeding on them as they nailed Him thereon.

The Law was a typology of the New Covenant. Since they were 2 distinct covenants, they operated in different ways. They can be compared in some ways, but since they are different they cannot be compared in the *exact same way.*

For example, you cannot say that under the Law animals, or beasts, were offered as sacrifices and killed by priests, and so Christ could not have been sacrificed as a man and killed by the Romans. Neither can you say that collecting blood and sprinkling it on things has to be done in the *same exact way* under the New Covenant!

Your arguments have reached an absurd level, and so I've lost interest. We are told that what was done on earth under the Old Covenant was symbolic of something that would go on in heaven in the New Covenant. Therefore, the "sprinkling of Christ's blood" was a heavenly phenomenon. If you can't understand that, you just don't want to!

Heb 9.13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

According to this, the will was dispensed or given to the heirs *at the point of Christ's death.* That is when the New Covenant took effect, even before Christ rose from the dead.

That is when our sanctification was made available, along with the cleansing of our consciences. Christ provided for our Salvation *in advance* at his death, so that after his resurrection his Spirit could be dispensed and given to us so that we may live in that Sanctification and in that Justification.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But I've already given you Scriptures to prove that it is the blood of Christ, shed on the cross, that provides an atonement for our sins. That is what the "sprinkling of Christ's blood" refers to--not his resurrection.

Matth 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned…for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

And so we see a byproduct of saying His resurrection is only a byproduct, is discounting His resurrection altogether as of no import for His atonement made for sins. His resurrection is rejected as having anything to do with the Spirit sprinkling His blood upon His people.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The sanctifying Spirit of Christ sprinkles His blood upon the obedient, which can only be by His resurrection, not by His death on the cross. The Spirit neither shed His blood, nor sanctified the wicked slaying Him on a tree.

 

[RBDERRICK]

And so, let's see what else must be accepted or rejected, for the sake of an atonement made at the cross alone.

If the atonement was made before His resurrection, then it was made under the Old Covenant, since the NT is not brought in until after Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

1Co 15:1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;...For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The NT gospel of Jesus Christ is His death, burial, and resurrection from the dead, not His death only.

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The blood of Jesus Christ that makes atonement is of the NT. It is NT blood that is sprinkled to make the atonement, not any blood shed and sprinkled under the OT.

The blood of Jesus Christ in the flesh shed on the cross under the OT, is not the blood of the resurrected man Christ Jesus sprinkled with His NT. His natural blood shed at the cross, is not also sprinkled upon and drank by NT atoned people of God in Christ Jesus.

The wine they drank from the cup under the OT, is not the blood of His NT, any more than His blood shed from the cross.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The resurrected Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, which is unto sprinkling of His blood by the Spirit, not after any sprinkling at the cross. The blood sprinkled by the Spirit after His resurrection speaks better things for the people, than that of Abel's natural blood shed, of the prophets, and of Jesus Christ in the flesh.

Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

As in all blood sactifices of the LORD, even the passover was not kept without sprinkling of blood upon the doorposts.

1Co 5:7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
And so Scripture concludes, our risen Lord Jesus Christ is our passover Lamb by sprinkling of His blood upon our souls, to make atonement and redemption for sins that are past. That by means of His sacrifice of Himself on the cross, He should rise again for our justification.

Exo 12:11And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.

Exo 29:33And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

Jhn 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
The resurrected Jesus Christ is our passover Lamb and bread and body to eat, and be made member's thereof.
If the Lamb's atonement was made at the cross, then His shed natural blood and dead body must be eaten, immediately and in haste. And if His blood was both shed-sprinkled at one time, then the wicked hands crucifying Him are the first uncircumcised heathen atoned for under the OT, by human sacrifice.
We can continue on, but I believe the gist of any atonement made by sprinke-shedding of blood upon a tree during the OT, is fairly concluded as not being by law of God, accepted by God, and certainly not the Lamb of God risen from the dead.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The Lamb will forever bear the marks of crucifxion in His resurrected body, but it's not His natural shed blood in the ground at the cross, that is sprinkled by His Spirit to atone and sanctifiy them that worship and obey Him in Spirit and in truth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

as an atonement for the sins of mankind.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

His death was the means of His resurrection, by which He now makes atonement through the sprinkling of His everlasting blood and resurrection unto life.

Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Jhn 6:53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jhn 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The life in the blood of Jesus Christ we drink and have is of the Spirit, not of His natural blood shed into the earth from a cross. (Pseudo-science DNA sparkling therein notwithstanding...)

Jhn 6:52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Only the carnal minded disiciples believed, and still believe, the blood that makes atonement is Jesus' shed blood on a cross.

If Jesus does speak of His natural blood being sprinkle-shed on a cross to make atonement, then any person on earth ought be offended by His command to drink it. Especially them that keep the law of Christ:

Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Jesus' command to drink His blood for the life therein, forbids His natural blood being sprinkled to make atonement from the cross.

(Drinking natural blood is what pagan heathen and rogue hunters do with slain animals, in order to drink the life of the slain into themselves)

 

[RBDERRICK]

Did God utilize evil people to cause this to happen? Yes.

God uses His enemies to chastize only His rebellious people.

The Father did not use wicked men to slay His righteous Son. (No more than the LORD used Cain to slay righteous Abel.)

Deu 19:12Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

God only uses righteous judges to slay the guilty and cleanse the land of innocent blood.

Deu 19:9If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways;…That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

All sinners are guilty of shedding the Son of man's innocent blood upon the earth, so that His blood is upon all nations thereof, the Jew first and also the Gentile.

Only them that now repent in His name to obey Him, are atoned for by being sprinkled and drinking His Spirit's precious blood from above.

Did God utilize evil people to cause this to happen? Yes.

Act 2:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, because it was determined by God with the Word, that the He should be made flesh and submit to the hands of sinners without protest.

Neither God the Father nor the Son commanded, counselled, nor willed any sinner to then falsley accuse, condemn, and kill Jesus Christ contrary to law.

Act 2:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The Father was neither guiding nor compelling the wicked hands to slay Him, nor was God the Son using their hands to commit suicide by cross.

The Son was obedient to the Father's will by obedience to His commandment. The crucifiers were not.

1Jo 3:12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Even as wicked Cain slew righteous Abel, they likewise slew the Son, because their deeds were wicked, and the Son's were righteous. No man rightly crucifies the Son by law, by any imputed sinfulness to Him from the Father.

Jesus Christ was in deed and in truth the Son of God, and was illegally slain for blasphemy. By the Father raising Him from the dead, the Spirit declares the truth to all the world of sinners, that Jesus Christ was God the Son in the flesh, and is now God the resurrected Son by the Spirit.

Romans{1:3} Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; {1:4} And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Any man still believing Jesus Christ was imputed unrighteousness by God, and so smitten with hands of just men by God on a tree, is still falsely accusing Jesus of blasphemy, and being cursed by God and man unto death.

1Co 12:3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:

 

[RandyK]

The Father did not use wicked men to slay His righteous Son. (No more than the LORD used Cain to slay righteous Abel.)

Act 2:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The Father was neither guiding nor compelling the wicked hands to slay Him, nor was God the Son using their hands to commit suicide by cross.

I agree that God Himself is not unjust and evil. But that does not mean He cannot use evil. He uses evil not by being evil Himself, but by steering it in a way that it is manifested in a certain direction.

God did steer evil men to bring out their sin, in their children and grandchildren, to the extent certain crimes were committed, among them being the slaying of Christ. God directed that they do that to show that their own independent ways do not lead to peace and love, but rather, to cruelty, hate, and murder.

This is the way God used Judas to betray Christ, and to lead to the cross. Clearly, God anticipated it. He is God of history, and nothing takes place apart from His purpose and will.

This does not mean He is acting with the evil He is directing. He is, on the contrary, acting to bring judgment to the evil and forgiveness to the repentant.

God tolerates evil for only so long, in order to allow people to choose the direction they want to go in. But ultimately, God will bring an end to the injustice and evil that is allowed to be perpetrated only for a time.

 

[RandyK]

Only the carnal minded disiciples believed, and still believe, the blood that makes atonement is Jesus' shed blood on a cross.

You are a proud enemy of the Scriptures then.

 

[RandyK]

And so we see a byproduct of saying His resurrection is only a byproduct, is discounting His resurrection altogether as of no import for His atonement made for sins. His resurrection is rejected as having anything to do with the Spirit sprinkling His blood upon His people.

You can't seem to get things right, either in what the Scriptures say or in what others say. I'm not saying the resurrection is unimportant. I'm saying that Christ's death brought atonement. The resurrection was part of Christ's divine nature--he could not stay dead!

And he had planned to die and to rise so that in forgiving us for his blood we could rise as he did. After all, it was for our sins that we received a death sentence. And it is in God's forgiveness that we can be raised from the dead.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Let me just simply say that I believe in Justification by faith in Christ, because he is the atonement--not my works.

True. Our present good works cannot atone for past sinful deeds. Catholic penitence is unto men, not to God.