Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

It is saying that God pre-planned a large number of people to live out their call to live in His image and likeness. That much is "predestined."

True. That is what is predetermined.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Who they are by name is not predetermined.

No created person is prechosen before being born into the world, to be a saint resurrected unto life, or a rebel resurrected unto shame and contempt.

Sin was not predestined,

Well said. Not with the angels that sinned, beginning with Lucifer, nor with any man that sins, beginning with Adam.

All angels are created perfect in heaven, and all men are created in the image of God on earth.

so I'm certainly not saying that "repentance" was predestined.

Not for any angels that sinned, but only for man, if we sin.

Rev 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Scripture foreseeing that if man disobeys God as the angels that sinned, then forgiveness for men, is predetermined by repentance toward God in Christ Jesus.

It does not mean, however, that God predestined people to sin and remain unrepentant.

True. It is prophesied that some will not repent unto death and the lake of fire, none are predetermined by God to do so before coming into the world.

God did not pre-plan people to become "dross." X number of people must, however, constitute God's elect and succeed.

True gain. The prophecy is of an innumerable multitude washed in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[RBDERRICK]

No, I'm not changing anything--just stating my position. We do, in fact, accept Jesus as our Savior the moment God's Word speaks to our heart and we determine to pick up on that Word and obey it.

When we are called to accept Jesus as our Lord, we simply accept the proposition, and so choose to accept him as such. This is, in fact, "acceptance."

As I said, God's Word makes the proposal 1st, and then we accept it. This applies to accepting Christ as Savior as well as in anything we do in obedience to His living Word residing within us, ie within our conscience. I couldn't disagree more. Every time we respond positively to a word of Christ's command we are *accepting* that word by faith. The word is invisibly existing within our conscience, and we only have to believe we're hearing it and then choose to accept it, as well as its mandates.

Accepting God's word as true, is only agreeing with the truth, not doing it.

I've given the Scriuptures why no man chooses to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. You give rationional sounding arguments, without any Scripture saying so. And one Scripture by Jesus denies anyone chooses to accpet Him.

Jhn 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:

RBDERRICK said:
But no man chooses Jesus Christ, and make themselves His servants.


I respectfully disagree.

Jhn 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:

He says ye have not chosen Him, you say ye do.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Everything we do comes down to our own will.

It does for sinners own will, not for saints doing only the will of Christ. Our will is crucifed on the cross, that we take up for His name's sake.

Mar 8:34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

We would know nothing of God unless He made Himself known to us 1st. But He has chosen to have fellowship with Man, just as He did with Adam in the garden. He has chosen to place His own image within us such that He can communicate with us on friendly terms.

That is the proposal, and that is the proposal that we must, I believe, accept. Otherwise, we will be lost.

True. He will fulfill the promise of the gospel to any man, that repents of sins and trespasses, to obey the faith and gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Jew first and also the Gentile.

 

[RandyK]

It does for sinners own will, not for saints doing only the will of Christ. Our will is crucifed on the cross, that we take up for His name's sake.

Mar 8:34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

I agree, but I must confess. Something inside of me doesn't want to open up to the will of God at all times. Something inside of me wants to maintain my own independence--not necessarily rebellion against God, but fear of what He may ask of me.

But absolutely, where we get our purpose is from carrying out His will. I pray for His mercy on this, because I really want to be found carrying out whatever He wishes.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.



True. He will fulfill the promise of the gospel to any man, that repents of sins and trespasses, to obey the faith and gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Jew first and also the Gentile.

Agreed.

 

[RandyK]

Accepting God's word as true, is only agreeing with the truth, not doing it.

Well there's the problem I'm having with you. To me, you're stating a "distinction without a difference." How is agreeing to do something not doing it?

I suppose, someone might agree to do something and then not do it? But that's not what I mean by "accepting Christ in my heart" or "accepting the responsibility to obey God's word."

Faith, if it is genuine, not just agrees to do something, but actually does it. Faith "does"--it doesn't "not do."

I've given the Scriuptures why no man chooses to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. You give rationional sounding arguments, without any Scripture saying so. And one Scripture by Jesus denies anyone chooses to accpet Him.

I sound rational, and not Scriptural, because the issue is language--not Bible. We "accept"--in English that means "to do."

Biblically, acceptance is "doing," or it is "false Christianity" and "false acceptance."

Jhn 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..

As I've said, God's Word begins by propositioning us. And then, we respond.

I agree with your order, but not with your conclusion that we don't accept the proposition. Acceptance is part of the human will. And God not only ordained His chosen, but He also ordained that we choose, or exercise our free will.

 

[RandyK]

True. That is what is predetermined.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Who they are by name is not predetermined.

I don't know, but I tend to think God knows who in advance. Those who were not pre-planned were "additions" made possible by those who rebel.

No created person is prechosen before being born into the world, to be a saint resurrected unto life, or a rebel resurrected unto shame and contempt.

I happen to believe God does foreknow who His people will be. He planted the seed, but an enemy planted seed independently, ie apart from God's original will.

Well said. Not with the angels that sinned, beginning with Lucifer, nor with any man that sins, beginning with Adam.

All angels are created perfect in heaven, and all men are created in the image of God on earth.

Thank you.

The Scripture foreseeing that if man disobeys God as the angels that sinned, then forgiveness for men, is predetermined by repentance toward God in Christ Jesus.

I prefer to say that God had built into His Word both free will and the way of correcting the problem of rebellion against His Word, ie mitigation. So though God did not plan for the Fall of either angels or men, He gave them not just free choice to determine to rebel but also the consequences of that, including its amelioration.

True. It is prophesied that some will not repent unto death and the lake of fire, none are predetermined by God to do so before coming into the world.

Agreed.

True gain. The prophecy is of an innumerable multitude washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Glad we found some things to agree on!

 

[RBDERRICK]

From my perspective, it is needless to say whose faith it is--it is obviously our faith.

The answer to the question of whose faith is it, that justifies the soul, is the faith of Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rom 3:22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The saving and justifying faith of God is not from ourselves, but only from God by Jesus Christ. Only the faith of Jesus Christ is of God, unto His righteousness and true holiness of godly living. And so accordingly, His faith is only freely given to them that repent from their own dead works, for His name and faith's sake.

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Even as the grace and redemption of God does not come from man, neither does the saving and justifying faith toward God come from ourselves.

For our faith to be in Jesus Christ, we must first recieve Him and His faith.

2Pe 1:1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

The only faith that is precious to God, is the faith of the man Christ Jesus, even as with the precious blood of the Lamb of God.

Eph 4:2There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And so, the only way for any man to have that one faith precious to God, is to obtain from Jesus Christ Himself. Which is with repentance from sins and trespasses against the Father.

In that Jesus Christ's precious faith is obtained by them that had not Christ, it is manifest that their own faith is also lost with their old will and life of sin.

Mar 8:34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

When any man repents and crucifies the old man on a tree with Christ, then we deny our old life, sins, and faith, that we might obtain the new life, righteousness, and faith of Jesus Christ unto the saving of the soul:

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

We must lose our old faith, that was unto sinfulness, that we may obtain the faith of Jesus unto righteousness.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The seeds of faith of men are many, with their false christs, but the promised seed of faith in the true Christ, is Jesus the righteous and blameless Son of God.

If any man will now repent of their own will and works for Jesus' sake, then God shall send His true Christ and seed Jesus, to be born of God with the power of His faith to do His will at all times.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Acts{3:19} Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; {3:20} And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

The point is, rather, that our faith is strictly limited to Christ, which is what makes "Faith Alone" our Justification.

I never preach any faith alone, in order not to contradict Scripture. The only time Scripture ever speaks of any faith that is alone, and apart from works, it is judged dead to God.

I only preach the saving faith of Jesus Christ, that justifies the soul unto His righteousness.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No man having the faith of Jesus Christ, can commit iniquity against God. No man doing unrighteousness has the faith of Jesus Christ, nor is their faith in Him.

Even as saying we are in the light of Jesus Christ, while walking in darkness, is a lie. So is saying our faith is in Jesus Christ, while doing works of darkness.

Only the faith of Jesus Christ saves and justifies the soul, for only by His righteous faith can any man be born of the seed of God, and do His good will with a pure heart.

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

3 John{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

 

[RandyK]

The answer to the question of whose faith is it, that justifies the soul, is the faith of Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But the scripture imprisoned 1 everything and everyone 2 under sin so that the promise could be given – because of the faithfulness 3 of Jesus Christ – to those who believe.

The NET notes that the particular Greek phrase is viewed by some scholars today as being "the faithfulness of Jesus Christ" as opposed to "faith in Jesus Christ." Of course, your point does not hold regardless, that people do not exercise their faith in Christ. The faithfulness of Christians is equally important to the faithfulness of Christ.

Even as the grace and redemption of God does not come from man, neither does the saving and justifying faith toward God come from ourselves.

The fact Christ is faithful does not mean believers do not exercise faith!

For our faith to be in Jesus Christ, we must first recieve Him and His faith.

I have not denied this. As I've said several times now, God's Word 1st comes to us, and then we respond to it. If we responded apart from God's help it would be no good. But we are responding with God's help because He initiates the proposal, and we are then able to respond. Why are you not getting this?

I see no reason to keep the same argument going? If you reject my argument fine. But you're not even addressing it!

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Faith Alone," as opposed to what?

As opposed to faith with works.

Jas 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

as opposed to any other source of Justification. Only Christ provided atonement for Eternal Life. Therefore Justification cannot come from any other source than Christ, and only faith in him provides this Justification.

True, which is by recieving for ourselves Jesus' faith toward God and His righteousness.

And. the faith of Jesus does no unrighteousness. No man doing unrighteousness, or doing no good when able, has the faith of the Lord Jesus Chrtist, but their own faith alone, that is dead toward God and man.

James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

"Faith Alone" is opposed to any other form of Justification, including operating independent of Christ.

It is *not* saying that our own faith, irregardless of what our faith is placed in, justifies us!

If your only preaching justification by having faith in Jesus Christ alone, then then there is no argument.

The argment from Scripture is against having our faith in Christ alone justify, irregardless of our works, and what we are doing at present.

What we believe for our forgiveness,

We repent with godly sorrow for our forgiveness of Jesus Christ.

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Once again, the argument is not forgiveness by faith in Jesus Christ, but only against having forgiveness without repentance of dead works.

Such as being already forgiven "at the cross" of all present and future sinning, that a believer may or shall do.

It simply goes without saying that "Faith Alone" is directed at Christ alone.

By Scripture it goes without saying, that speaking of faith alone is of dead faith.

Rom 6:17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

A form of doctrine is words formed for doctrine. "Faith alone" is a form of words only condemned by Scripture.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Why insist on inserting into the Scripture faith "alone", when Scripture doesn't find it necessary in Eph 2, nor acceptable in James 2?

Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Would you also insert faith "alone" in this Scripture too? That would also become justified followers without works, only in spirit, and the mind alone:

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Justified followers are in works, not only vainly imagined. Which especially includes following Jesus Christ in His steps and walking as He walked.

 

[RandyK]

As opposed to faith with works.

Let me just simply say that I believe in Justification by faith in Christ, because he is the atonement--not my works. And I believe that after having accepted his atonement we display genuine faith by living accordingly, by living through him and not independently of him.

Attacking the belief in "Faith Alone" as it is practiced by Nominal Christians is not justified when others practice it properly. You might as well as attack all Christians because some people take the doctrine of Grace as an excuse to sin.

So "Faith Alone" works for me as long as we are able to explain what we mean--something that you also are recommending. I can explain it not as if Faith alone is our justification, but that Faith only in Christ, as displayed through our repentance, is our justification.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Atonement took place at the cross, but the purpose was to give us resurrection and Eternal Life.

False. This is the error of believing any man is atoned for and redeemed at the cross, by the shedding of Jesus' blood and death alone.

The atonement of the Lord is not made by shedding of blood alone, but also by sprinkling of blood.

Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Making the atonement is not only killing the sacrifice, as with the heathen, but must also be sprinkled upon the altar.

The animal sacrifices of the OT were unique, in that the blood must not only be shed, but also be touched by the priests and sprinkled upon altars, instruments, and even the people.

Lev 8:24And he brought Aaron's sons, and Moses put of the blood upon the tip of their right ear, and upon the thumbs of their right hands, and upon the great toes of their right feet: and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about.

Exo 24:7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

The atonement made by covenant of God is not by killing the sacrifice alone: Without the shedding, there is no sprinkling, but without the sprinkling, there is no atonement made. Without the Sprikling of the blood, the shedding is made of none effect.

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The pattern of atonement is not slaying the sacrifice alone, but is also sprinkling the blood of the sacrifice. Therefore, the atonement made by the Lamb of God could not be at the cross, where indeed He was slain by the priests, but those preiest certainly did not touch nor sprinkle His blood in the temple, nor upon the people.

The blood of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God was shed at the cross, but when and where and upon who is His blood sprinkled, to make atonement for sins of the world?

The answer of course is who does so. What High Priest completes the work of atonement after the Lamb of God is slain? He was indeed slain by men who shed His blood, but His blood was not sprinkled by their wicked hands, nor hands of any men that sin.

The Lamb of God's blood is only touched and sprinkled by the hand of God, who resurrected the Son from the dead:

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The natural atoning blood of Jesus Christ was shed on the cross by men, but His natural blood was not sprinkled. Only His eternal blood by resurrection from the dead, is sprinkled by the Spirit upon them that obey Him.

The sprinkling of the blood of the resurrected Jesus Christ makes the atonement for sins. His blood is not now His natural blood, any more than His resurrected body is His natural flesh and bones.

Conclusion: The blood of Jesus Christ is not that of bulls and goats, that was both shed and sprinkled by the same hands. And though the blood of the Lamb of God was indeed shed by priests that die, only by Himself the eternally resurrected High Priest, sprinkles His own blood of spirit and life, upon them that repent.

Jhn 6:53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you....It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Heb 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[RandyK]

False. This is the error of believing any man is atoned for and redeemed at the cross, by the shedding of Jesus' blood and death alone.

The atonement of the Lord is not made by shedding of blood alone, but also by sprinkling of blood.

Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Making the atonement is not only killing the sacrifice, as with the heathen, but must also be sprinkled upon the altar.

The animal sacrifices of the OT were unique, in that the blood must not only be shed, but also be touched by the priests and sprinkled upon altars, instruments, and even the people.

Lev 8:24And he brought Aaron's sons, and Moses put of the blood upon the tip of their right ear, and upon the thumbs of their right hands, and upon the great toes of their right feet: and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about.

Exo 24:7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

The atonement made by covenant of God is not by killing the sacrifice alone: Without the shedding, there is no sprinkling, but without the sprinkling, there is no atonement made. Without the Sprikling of the blood, the shedding is made of none effect.

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The pattern of atonement is not slaying the sacrifice alone, but is also sprinkling the blood of the sacrifice. Therefore, the atonement made by the Lamb of God could not be at the cross, where indeed He was slain by the priests, but those preiest certainly did not touch nor sprinkle His blood in the temple, nor upon the people.

The blood of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God was shed at the cross, but when and where and upon who is His blood sprinkled, to make atonement for sins of the world?

The answer of course is who does so. What High Priest completes the work of atonement after the Lamb of God is slain? He was indeed slain by men who shed His blood, but His blood was not sprinkled by their wicked hands, nor hands of any men that sin.

The Lamb of God's blood is only touched and sprinkled by the hand of God, who resurrected the Son from the dead:

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The natural atoning blood of Jesus Christ was shed on the cross by men, but His natural blood was not sprinkled. Only His eternal blood by resurrection from the dead, is sprinkled by the Spirit upon them that obey Him.

The sprinkling of the blood of the resurrected Jesus Christ makes the atonement for sins. His blood is not now His natural blood, any more than His resurrected body is His natural flesh and bones.

Conclusion: The blood of Jesus Christ is not that of bulls and goats, that was both shed and sprinkled by the same hands. And though the blood of the Lamb of God was indeed shed by priests that die, only by Himself the eternally resurrected High Priest, sprinkles His own blood of spirit and life, upon them that repent.

Jhn 6:53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you....It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Heb 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Colossians 1.22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation.

I don't know why you argue that Christ's death must conform to the rules of the Law, which was under an entirely different covenant? Peter does say that Christ's blood was "sprinkled," just like it was under the Law. But Christ's death did not take place under Temple Law.

Resurrection was not the forgiveness that Christ offered. It was our offence against Christ that was forgiven, namely his rejection and suffering on the cross.

The resurrection was a byproduct of who Jesus was. Unless he was God, his death for our sins would've meant nothing more than forgiveness. All would die and not be resurrected.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Nobody has to drink Jesus' actual blood.

They do if the atonement was made at the cross, and His natural blood is sprinkled upon the believers to atone for sins.

Exo 24:8And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
That includes eating His dead flesh at the cross:

Exo 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
If the atonement of the Lamb of God was made at the cross by His death alone, and not by His resurrection, then the blood to sprinkle and flesh to eat must be from His slain body on the cross.

Obviously, Jesus' physical DNA and spiritual DNA were different from other men. Jesus shared blood in common with other men, but I would never say his blood was exclusively like that of other men.

And, since you argue for a different blood DNA of another Christ on the cross, then maybe it's quite tasty.

2 Timothy{6:20} O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

The Stephanos Greek has "blood," but Westcot Hort Greek does not. The latter is just saying from "one" all nations were made to dwell on earth.

My Bible says one blood. But we'll use your's. Since all nations of men come from one man, then they come from the one blood and seed of that man.

And, the scientifically altered DNA Christ has nothing to do with men and nations on earth.

I've given the Scriptures of Jesus' body born of the seed of David, Abraham, Noah, and Adam. Who all have the same one blood of the first man.

He was sinless, and in my view, he was God.

Scripture says so. He was God the Word come in the same flesh and blood of all men. Denying He walked in the same earthly vessel of all men, is denying His honor and glory in doing so without sinning.

Some bad Christians use it as an excuse for not walking as He walked, as though His own flesh and blood was uncommonly better than theirs.

Why do you declare that Jesus' blood is as common as all other men?

Because Scripture does. And I don't have a problem with my natural body commonly made by the true Christ.

Nor do I seek some super-Christ of different flesh and blood than my own.

Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

My Lord came and walked in the same flesh as me and all men, which proves I and any man can do the same, by repenting and recieving His faith to do so.

Phl 4:13I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

If purity was required of animal sacrifices it represented Jesus as a sinless sacrifice.

The animal sacrifices are to be physically unspotted. It had nothing to do with the blood, nor was the blood inspected for 'purity'.

Jesus Christ was unspotted by any sins of the world, walking in the same naturally common flesh and blood of all men.

And now so do His saints walking as He walked, by His resurrection from the dead and sprinkling of blood:

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Jas 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The Apostle John in 1 John warned against Gnostics who believed in Docetism.

Docetics don't believe the body of Jesus Christ was naturally born, but only a temporary body like visting angels.

Heb 2:16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Others acknowledge He was born of a woman, but not in a body of common flesh and blood.

Romans{1:3} Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Heb 10:5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The Spirit prepared for the Word a body from the flesh and blood of woman, born of the same seed of David, Abraham, Noah, and Adam.

Mary was common in flesh and blood of all men and women on earth, but not in faith toward God.

This is normal human blood,

Which Jesus the second Adam had the same as the first Adam. Their flesh and blood was in commone, but not their faith and life.

The flesh does not make the man. The man by faith makes the life in the flesh.

Jesus was supernatural.

Not His body.

2Jo 1:7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Do you also use the lie of super-Jesus coming in supernatural flesh, as an excuse for not walking as He walked in your more common flesh?

He was God in human flesh.

Not if the science of Messiahship is believed, that Christ came in superhuman flesh, and not in common human flesh.

How is Jesus' resurrection and quickening Spirit his only pure and eternal blood.

Jhn 6:53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jhn 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I've told you this before, and I'll tell you again: the only thing that brings redemption to man is the cross,

I've told you this before, and I'll tell you again for the last time: The only thing that brings guilt to all man that sin, is Jesus crucified on the cross by sinful man.

The only thing that brings mercy and justification to men that repent of sinning, is the resurrection and sprinkling of blood of Jesus Christ to atone for sins.

I've already given the Scriptures for it.

Of course, Jesus justified us, legally, at his death--even before his resurrection. It was his shed blood that bought our redemption.

If man is legally justified for crucifying Jesus Christ, then Jesus Christ was guilty of blasphemy and worthy of death by the law of God.

Lev 24:16And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Mar 14:64Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

The unlawful crucifixion of Jesus Christ by false accusation of sinful men, condemns all men that sin.

Rom 3:19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

upon which Jesus shed his blood.

Upon which wicked men shed His blood, unlawfully.

Isaiah{50:5} The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. {50:6} I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

No Scripture says Jesus ever shed His own blood. Nor did the Father shed His own Son's blood on a cross. Only sinful man shed His blood by delivering Him to scourging and crucifixion.

The Son did not commit suicide by cross, nor did the Father commit murder by abuse of law.

Pro 6:16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.
The blood shed of the innocent Son of God, who knew no sin on the cross, is upon all men that sin on the earth.

He was the Son of man, with all the land of earth given Him for an inheritance, so that shedding His innocent blood curses all men that continue sinning and crucifying Him to themselves.

Heb 6:5If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[RandyK]

I've told you this before, and I'll tell you again for the last time: The only thing that brings guilt to all man that sin, is Jesus crucified on the cross by sinful man.

Yes, and that's why the cross is the means of redemption, because it deals with our guilt.

The only thing that brings mercy and justification to men that repent of sinning, is the resurrection and sprinkling of blood of Jesus Christ to atone for sins.

I've already given the Scriptures for it.

You've given me Scriptures on this matter of the resurrection providing for an atonement for sin, but none of them make the argument you are making. A reference to a "sprinkling of Christ's blood" does not prove what you claim it does, that it took place *at the resurrection.*

You don't need to prove to me that the cross brought guilt to all of mankind--nobody is arguing that. That is purely a distraction from the matter. You must prove that the *resurrection* is what atones for our sins. What Scriptures are you relying on for that?

But I've already given you Scriptures to prove that it is the blood of Christ, shed on the cross, that provides an atonement for our sins. That is what the "sprinkling of Christ's blood" refers to--not his resurrection.

No Scripture says Jesus ever shed His own blood. Nor did the Father shed His own Son's blood on a cross. Only sinful man shed His blood by delivering Him to scourging and crucifixion.

God is Lord over all. He engineered the death of Christ as an atonement for the sins of mankind. Did God utilize evil people to cause this to happen? Yes.

 

[RandyK]

My Lord came and walked in the same flesh as me and all men, which proves I and any man can do the same, by repenting and recieving His faith to do so.

I already addressed this. Jesus had physical DNA in common with all men. He had a human spirit just like all men, although his human spirit was conjoined with the Spirit of God. Jesus had the same divine substance that the Holy Spirit does. Nobody is arguing that Jesus wasn't a human being. Nobody should be arguing that he isn't God.

But he did not share a poisoned human spirit with the rest of mankind--he had no sin nature. So he had a different kind of physical/spiritual constitution that did not make him non-man, though it did make him different.

Your whole argument appears to be an attempt to connect what Jesus did on the cross to ceremonies or rituals done under the Law of Moses. We are not told Jesus' work was in parallel with the Law--only the *fulfillment* of the Law.

So you are doing an exercise in futility by trying to fit Christ's work on the cross to parallel that of how animal blood was treated under Temple Law. I deal with what biblical theology says explicitly--not with attempting to read theology into OT practices.

The NT authors did this work for us, and we shouldn't try to produce new doctrine by this kind of thinking.

 

[RandyK]

They do if the atonement was made at the cross, and His natural blood is sprinkled upon the believers to atone for sins.

This is the same kind of charge the pagan Romans made against Christians who "drank Jesus' blood" and "ate his flesh" in the Lord's Supper. Christians were accused of cannibalism and debauchery.

But the Lord's Supper was obviously intended to be symbolic. We know it is such because it would be absurd to see Jesus' Disciples as actually drinking Jesus' blood while he was sitting among them whole, and while they actually drank wine.

Exo 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

The eating of flesh of sacrificial animals was obviously intended to have people identify with the sacrifice. Jesus made our identification with him to be symbolized in the Lord's Supper.

But Jesus had already explained that his words were always to be taken "spiritually." That is, we partake of him not by Temple Law, but rather, by spiritual contact with the Lord, who dwells everywhere.

If the atonement of the Lamb of God was made at the cross by His death alone, and not by His resurrection, then the blood to sprinkle and flesh to eat must be from His slain body on the cross.

We participate in Jesus as our "Sacrifice Lamb" spiritually, and not in accordance with Temple Law. Jesus is not an "animal."

And, since you argue for a different blood DNA of another Christ on the cross, then maybe it's quite tasty.

I don't know what you're talking about? I believe in one Christ whose DNA was fully human. What I've said is that apart from our physical human DNA we have distinct human spirits that differentiate us from all other human beings.

Jesus was unique from all other human beings, not just as a human spirit but also as a human spirit conjoined with God's Spirit. He shared Deity with his Father in heaven and with the Holy Spirit.

My Bible says one blood. But we'll use your's. Since all nations of men come from one man, then they come from the one blood and seed of that man.

I'm not sure why you want to use the word "blood" instead of "man" here? The emphasis is on the commonality of all men with Adam, who was human. Jesus descended from Adam, in terms of his DNA, but he does not share in common with fallen humanity their Sin Nature. His human spirit was not poisoned by Sin.

The animal sacrifices are to be physically unspotted. It had nothing to do with the blood, nor was the blood inspected for 'purity'.

The idea was to offer God a pure specimen for sacrifice, one worthy of trading on the market. To sell a defective animal at full price was corruption and deception.

There is no perfect animal. The idea was to offer an "acceptable" sacrifice. Nobody is talking about animal "blood" except you.

Jesus Christ was unspotted by any sins of the world, walking in the same naturally common flesh and blood of all men.

And now so do His saints walking as He walked, by His resurrection from the dead and sprinkling of blood:

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Your quote here says nothing about "resurrection from the dead."

Which Jesus the second Adam had the same as the first Adam. Their flesh and blood was in commone, but not their faith and life.

The flesh does not make the man. The man by faith makes the life in the flesh.

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Yes, Jesus was human, but his human spirit was conjoined with God's Spirit--they were one.

Jesus did not "make" himself different by choosing to operate his faith in a certain way. He was already God before he became man, and merely presented his faith as a Divine faith.

Do you also use the lie of super-Jesus coming in supernatural flesh, as an excuse for not walking as He walked in your more common flesh?

As I've told you, Jesus was a man, but he was a Divine man. This means his commandments to us are Divine commandments, which we must obey.

Not if the science of Messiahship is believed, that Christ came in superhuman flesh, and not in common human flesh.

I've not once characterized Jesus' flesh as "super-human flesh." Why do you misrepresent my belief that way?

Jesus' flesh was perfect, but it is senseless to call it "super-human." Flesh, by definition, is flesh and not anything transcending it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, the resurrection is important.

All important to justify them that repent.

Yes Jesus' death marks all sin as evil.

Because all that sin are marked guilty of His shed blood.

The mark of Cain was for slaying Abel. The mark of all sinners is for slaying the Son of God.

Yes, we're all supposed to repent.

Commanded to repent, without which there is no salvation nor justification by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But you're leaving out the important part, that it is the atonement that is central to our forgiveness.

Which is made by shedding of blood at the cross, and sprinkling of blood by resurrection.

That is the atonement--it should not be conflated with the resurrection, with repentance, with recognition of how great our sins are.

The atoning sacrifice of the Lord God must not be conflated with the sacrifices of the heathen, who only shed the blood, but do not touch nor sprinkle it, especially not on themselves.

Read the law of atonement in Scripture, and see that killing the sacrifice does not atone for anything, but the blood must also be sprinkled to make atonement for the people.

If we know our sins put Jesus to death,

We simply need to put our trust in Jesus' death for our sins,

Putting your trust in killing Jesus Christ by your sins, does not atone for anyone putting Him to death.

so that by his Spirit we can walk in forgiveness,

No Scripture ever speaks of this cliche.

We walk after the Spirit in the light of Jesus Christ, with past sins forgiven.

No man walking after the flesh in darkness is forgiven of present sinning, and crucifying Jesus Christ to themselves.

in a righteousness that will never end.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ never ends, and is never intermixed with works of unrighteousness at any time.

The righteousness of God is at all times. The righteousness of man with unrighteous works at times, ends in the grave.

Doers of both good and evil are the lukewarm spued out of the body of Jesus Christ.

 

[RandyK]

All important to justify them that repent.


Because all that sin are marked guilty of His shed blood.

The mark of Cain was for slaying Abel. The mark of all sinners is for slaying the Son of God.


Commanded to repent, without which there is no salvation nor justification by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


Which is made by shedding of blood at the cross, and sprinkling of blood by resurrection.


Read the law of atonement, and see that killing the sacrifice does not atone for anything, but the blood must also be sprinkled to make atonement for the people.




Putting your trust in killing Jesus Christ by your sins, does not atone for anyone's sins.


No Scripture ever speaks of this cliche.

We walk after the Spirit in the light of Jesus Christ, with past sins forgiven.

No man walking after the flesh in darkness is forgiven of present sinning, and crucifying Jesus Christ to themselves.




The righteousness of Jesus Christ never ends, and is never intermixed with works of unrighteousness at any time.

The righteousness of God is at all times. The righteousness of man with unrighteous works at times, ends in the grave.

Doers of both good and evil are the lukewarm spued out of the body of Jesus Christ.

Your focus seems to be on separating the righteousness of Christ from the unrighteousness of Man, and then demanding that we live by the righteousness of Christ without accepting that we should ever justify doing wrong again?

I quite agree that the sinless righteousness of Christ is different from our human record of righteousness, but I cannot say that we ever become as righteous as Christ was until we are rendered immortal.

Christ has, in my view, entrusted his pure righteousness to us who will have a spotty record, sometimes walking by the Spirit and at other times not. And even when we walk by the Spirit we will recognize the Sin in us that renders us less than perfect.

As far as your theology, that only resurrection justifies us, you have yet to show that from the Scriptures theologically. You argue it from the Law of Moses, but this dances around the point--NT theology does not explicitly identify the resurrection of Christ as the source of our forgiveness, atonement, and redemption.

It is the death of Christ, and the blood of Christ, that indeed identifies our sin and guilt, but which then recognizes at the same time our forgiveness, atonement, and redemption.

The death of Christ on the cross is therefore the source of God's grace and mercy to us, because that is where our sins are fully pointed out and thus where we can escape its verdict. The resurrection certainly had to follow or the forgiveness we obtained at the cross would go to no value.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I don't read that, so I can't say. I can, however, say what I believe the Bible to be saying. It is saying that God pre-planned a large number of people to live out their call to live in His image and likeness. That much is "predestined."

Believing what the Bible says, is not proving what the Bible says. People have been believing the Bible says a whole world of things, that none can prove by quoting the Bible.

I'm only interested in what the Bible does say. Not in personal beliefs that people only want the Bible say.

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Another problem of having one's faith alone, is that they also teach their own beliefs about the Bible, that Scripture does not say, or does not say it their way.

Act 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I'm ready to believe anything people say about the Bible, but only if they quote the Bible first, and then give the simple sense of it, without making it mean something that they only want to believe.

Neh 8:8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Sola Scriptura includes only teaching what is written in Scripture.