Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

Which verse re how God needs to see our works as evidence of our salvation?

He himself does not need to see our works to know we have faith and are saved. He knew everything about us before the foundation of the world.

He needs the evidence of our works to shut the mouths of any angel or man who would try to challenge his righteous judgement. The law is the witness for the prosecution (Deuteronomy 31:26). But, in the case of us believers, our obedience to the law and how we loved Jesus and the church will be the evidence that silences every critic in heaven and earth who would try to question God's righteous judgment.

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin." Romans 3:23

That's why God uses the evidence of our works to treat us as either the goat or the sheep we already are when we get to the final judgment at the resurrection.

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ Matthew 25:34-36

These works don't make you a saved person, as if God is checking to see if you did enough good works to save you, as if they were things you did, by faith, to make God indebted to you to save you. No, they SHOW that you are a saved person, saved by faith in God's forgiveness, and continued faith in God's forgiveness, apart from your works. Your works being the evidence of that faith because faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No further comments.
In EVERY writing of Paul...he mentions good behavior, which is, in itself, a good work.

I will not be posting any more scripture since scripture is irrelevant to you.

Paul's argument is "righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6), what we non-Catholics call 'salvation by faith alone' but which in no way is referring to James' 'not by faith alone' argument. That's why you can not use James' 'not by faith alone' argument to discredit our 'justified/saved by faith alone' argument.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perhaps, in the future, you'll also understand about good works being absolutely necessary for salvation.

They are. Just not the way you say they are necessary for salvation.

For us, our works are the evidence of the forgiveness of God by which we were saved.

For you works are the way you get God to save you.

 

[GodsGrace]

He himself does not need to see our works to know we have faith and are saved. He knew everything about us before the foundation of the world.

He needs the evidence of our works to shut the mouths of any angel or man who would try to challenge his righteous judgement. The law is the witness for the prosecution (Deuteronomy 31:26). But, in the case of us believers, our obedience to the law and how we loved Jesus and the church will be the evidence that silences every critic in heaven and earth who would try to question God's righteous judgment.

Are we under THE LAW?
No.
And I've already replied to the above.

I had stated that God will not have any angel declaring He is not making a correct decision.
God will NOT BE CHALLENGED. Neither by an angel or man.

Our obedience to the good works of the Kingdom and how we loved Jesus and our neighbor will be the basis for the judgment.

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin." Romans 3:23

We aren't under THE LAW Jethro.

That's why God uses the evidence of our works to treat us as either the goat or the sheep we already are when we get to the final judgment at the resurrection.

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ Matthew 25:34-36

You've said it yourself.
We will be judged by our good works.
"I was hungry and you gave me to eat"
"I was thirsty and you gave me to drink"
"I was naked and you clothed me"
"I was sick and you looked after me"

The above are those on His right.
Those that did the good works Jesus taught us to do.

These works don't make you a saved person, as if God is checking to see if you did enough good works to save you, as if they were things you did, by faith, to make God indebted to you to save you. No, they SHOW that you are a saved person, saved by faith in God's forgiveness, and continued faith in God's forgiveness, apart from your works. Your works being the evidence of that faith because faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31).

Sure these works make us a saved person.
Jesus said so.
YOU just said so.

Enough of this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul's argument is "righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6), what we non-Catholics call 'salvation by faith alone' but which in no way is referring to James' 'not by faith alone' argument. That's why you can not use James' 'not by faith alone' argument to discredit our 'justified/saved by faith alone' argument.

What do you mean by "WE NON-CATHOLICS"?

Am I not one of you because I believe we are to obey God?

And, just for your information - you may want to study up on this -
FAITH ALONE is a reformed term meaning ONLY FAITH WITH NOTHING ELSE.
Most reformed don't even teach this anymore.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

NO ONE on this forum EVER stated that we lose our salvation by sinning.
We ALL sin.

And yet you and JLB claim it is believing people who sin by being disobediently unfruitful that you are cut out of the vine and lose your salvation.

What the bible teaches is that we are not to live in habitual sin...
PRACTICE SIN.
1 John 3:9

So it's just the amount of sin that determines if me, a believer, gets cut out of the vine and unsaved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are we under THE LAW?
No.

Right, we are not 'under' the condemnation, the guidance, or the letter of the law.

What we do is UPHOLD the law (Romans 3:31). That means, even though we don't keep the letter of the law, we are in no way guilty of breaking the law. Faith in Christ upholds the requirements of the law, not breaks them or abolishes them. Christ himself said he did not come to do that.

 

[mailmandan]

When you make things that people didn’t say, I would imagine that you hear all kinds of things.

Our works KEEP US SAVED.
This is the simplest way to state it.

OBEDIENCE KEEPS US SAVED.
Disobedience will not keep us saved.

If we believe and obey we will be saved.

What GodsGrace said here is crystal clear which proves my point.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do you mean by "WE NON-CATHOLICS"?

Am I not one of you because I believe we are to obey God?

How else am I to distinguish between those who don't believe the Reformed doctrine of 'justification by faith alone' (for what it actually means), and those of us who are not Reformed but believe in 'justification by faith alone'?

God as my witness, I knew you'd be offended.

 

[Rodger]

Saved by faith means you confessed Jesus as Lord, and believed God raised Him from the dead.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

This is how we obey the Gospel.

This is the obedience of faith.

Confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus.

By confessing Jesus as Lord we are obeying the Gospel command to repent.

My dear brother, it is obvious that your "pet" project of theology is Obedience. I get it.

Now you said that......
"saved by grace means you confessed Jesus as Lord and believed God raised Him from the dead".

Of course that is true.

However the statement has three parts—
1. salvation,
2. grace, and
3. Faith.

The key is that they are equally important. The three working together constitute a basic tenet of Christianity.

I am sure that you understand the word salvation is defined as “the act of being delivered, redeemed, or rescued.”

By grace, we receive the faith that enables us to believe the Word of God and obey what He said in that He has sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross and provide the salvation we cannot achieve on our own.

 

[GodsGrace]

They are. Just not the way you say they are necessary for salvation.

For us, our works are the evidence of the forgiveness of God by which we were saved.

For you works are the way you get God to save you.

FOR US
FOR ME

Interesting choice of words.
Do you mean to imply that EVERY OTHER PROTESTANT,,,believes as YOU do...
and I'm standing here all by myself believing that I should obey God?

Reread Matthew 25 which you just posted.
Jesus is speaking of DOING.

Matthew 25:45-46 NASB
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


The parable of the Talents is also helpful.
Matthew 25:14.......

 

[Rodger]

How else am I to distinguish those who don't believe the Reformed doctrine of 'justification by faith alone' (for what it actually means), and those of us who are not Reformed but believe in 'justification by faith alone'?

God as my witness, I knew you'd be offended.

So did I!

 

[GodsGrace]

How else am I to distinguish those who don't believe the Reformed doctrine of 'justification by faith alone' (for what it actually means), and those of us who are not Reformed but believe in 'justification by faith alone'?

God as my witness, I knew you'd be offended.

Cheap Grace
Easy Believism

These are not terms I made up....
It is spoken of about person that believe their faith, and nothing else added, will save them.

But this is not what the NT teaches.
It teaches faith plus something.
Not posting what else again since it apparently makes no difference since you have NEVER replied to it.

You just keep repeating what comforts you.

And, there's nothing wrong with being Catholic.

What IS offensive is that you believe all PROTESTANTS believe as you do.
Most protestants believe in good works for God.

And they make no qualms about it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And, just for your information - you may want to study up on this -
FAITH ALONE is a reformed term meaning ONLY FAITH WITH NOTHING ELSE.

...for justification. Yeah, I know that.

Most reformed don't even teach this anymore.

If that's true they would cease to be, by definition, Reformed.

 

[GodsGrace]

And yet you and JLB claim it is believing people who sin by being disobediently unfruitful that you are cut out of the vine and lose your salvation.


So it's just the amount of sin that determines if me, a believer, gets cut out of the vine and unsaved?

Jethro,,,,
you're speaking about sin again and this is not the topic.

'nuff said.

 

[GodsGrace]

...for justification. Yeah, I know that.


If that's true they would cease to be, by definition, Reformed.

Go do a little study on this.
I'm not here to teach but only to discuss biblical doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

What GodsGrace said here is crystal clear which proves my point.

When did I ever say otherwise?

You do have difficulty reading Dan...

 

[GodsGrace]

...for justification. Yeah, I know that.


If that's true they would cease to be, by definition, Reformed.

PS
NOT for justification.
For EVERYTHING....
that's what FAITH ALONE means.
FAITH ALONE
ONLY FAITH
FAITH AND NOTHING ELSE.

 

[GodsGrace]

So did I!

Well Rodger,,,if you knew I'd be offended...
WHY did you make your original statement to me?
Not very nice of you.

 

[mailmandan]

When did I ever say otherwise?

You do have difficulty reading Dan...

See post #948.