Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

Act 1:16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” (ESV)

God foresaw what Judas would choose to do.

 

[JLB]

If Judas was chosen to betray Jesus and it was prophesied long before, could he really have "always had a choice"?

Judas was chosen, predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come and sit on his throne that was chosen for him to sit on with the other eleven.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

 

[JLB]

You said....
"Judas always had a choice.".

That is a tough call brother. Don't set that in stone as a Christian doctrine. Given all the information available to us, it’s possible that Judas did have a choice about whether he betrayed Jesus, a possibility to reject Satan’s suggestions.

Notably, when Peter talks about Old Testament prophecies concerning Judas in Acts 1:15-26 the two prophecies mention describing what would happen after Judas betrayed Jesus, nothing that declares he was fated to betray him.

Judas was chosen to reign with Christ in the age to come and sit on his throne with the other eleven.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Mathew 19:28


Judas traded his eternal inheritance for a bag of magic beans
(30 pieces of silver).

 

[mailmandan]

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27

Apparently, that did not apply to Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) Betraying Jesus is not truly following Him. Setting out to initially follow Jesus for the wrong reasons and with the wrong motivation is not truly following Him.

Judas belonged to the Father and was given to the Son.

Once again, in regard to Judas being chosen, in John 13:18, we read - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' By Jesus choosing Judas, that does not mean that Judas was saved, and Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus and Jesus knew it from the beginning. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

Or this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

Judas heard the call to follow Jesus just like the other 11.

Betraying Jesus is not truly following Him. Yet Judas was a devil! (John 6:70)

Judas followed Jesus for three and half years.

Those who are truly His disciples continue.. (John 8:31) and do not betray Him then kill themselves.

Judas was promoted to an apostle like the other eleven.

How long does a person need to follow Jesus before they are saved?

Those who are saved truly follow Jesus and continue to follow Jesus. Temporarily setting out to follow Jesus is not truly following Him. Be sure to read this over again.

1. Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
2. Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
3. Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
4. Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
5. Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
6. Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
7. Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
8. Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
9. Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
10. Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
11. Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
12. Judas' habitation to be desolate......Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

 

[Free]

God foresaw what Judas would choose to do.

So, God foresaw what Judas would choose to do and then planned the whole timing of Jesus's death around that choice, which just so happened to be in Jerusalem during Passover?

Do you disagree with Luke that it was God's definite plan in how and when and by whom Jesus was delivered up?

Act 1:16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. (ESV)

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)

Act 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
...
Act 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (ESV)

Luk 22:21 But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table.
Luk 22:22 For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!” (ESV)

Do you disagree with Paul?

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. (ESV)

What other option is there if God is not sovereign and everything does not happen according to specific plans? How could any of his plans and prophecies come to fruition when he wants, where he wants, through whom he wants?

Judas was chosen, predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come and sit on his throne that was chosen for him to sit on with the other eleven.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Chosen and predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come? But, since that isn't going to happen (Mark 14:21), what does that mean of being chosen and predestined according to what you have posted? Doesn't it make them completely empty concepts that don't mean what they should plainly mean?

Luk 22:3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.
Luk 22:4 He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. (ESV)

Does that sound like free choice? Given that Judas's betrayal happened according to God's plan, according to Jesus and Peter, it seems like the only possible "free choice" Judas could have possibly had was to repent afterwards and turn to Christ.

 

[Rodger]

Judas was chosen to reign with Christ in the age to come and sit on his throne with the other eleven.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Mathew 19:28


Judas traded his eternal inheritance for a bag of magic beans
(30 pieces of silver).

Well, although I understand your point, and honestly, it is one of the most thought provoking question I have had, and that goes back a long way.

It is these kinds of questions that should lead others to do more Bible study.

If one were to argue that Judas died a saved individual, that he was someone who departed this world having a right standing before God, the text you posted would probably be the primary text that he or she would use.

Jesus certainly indicated that only 12 individuals would sit on 12 thrones in order to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. However, notice how Jesus Christ never actually singled out Judas Iscariot by name as one of these individuals.

For example, Jesus did not say, “You twelve will sit on twelve thrones….” The Bible never says, “Jesus said unto the twelve apostles, Ye will sit on twelve thrones….” “The twelve” was frequently used in Scripture to include Judas but we do not see such language in Matthew 19:27-28.

That being the case, I would say that Judas was not included in this promise. Moreover, Scriptural evidence indicates that Judas died and went to hell.

 

[Rodger]

So you believe Judas didn’t believe in Him?

That is my opinion my brother.

When I read the Bible I never see Judas referring to Jesus as Lord but rather as "master" or "teacher."

Judas made his own choices, and they were the source of his own damnation. Yet the choices fit perfectly into the sovereign plan of God. God controls not only the good, but also the evil of man to accomplish His own ends.

 

[Rodger]

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27

Judas belonged to the Father, and was given to the Son.

Judas heard the call to follow Jesus just like the other 11.

Judas followed Jesus for three and half years.

Judas was promoted to an apostle like the other eleven.

How long does a person need to follow Jesus before they are saved?

My dear friend.....Nowhere in Scripture is Judas described as believing in Jesus as Lord or Savior.

Did he hear the call? That is questionable as I do not see Judas receiving a direct call from Jesus.

Yes he followed Jesus for 3 and a half years!

I am not sure that Judas was promoted to an Apostle. Lets think about this. The "Disciples" became the Apostles after the death of Jesus. However, tradition says Judas died "before" Jesus died! Hmmmm.

We are saved at the moment we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

Apparently, that did not apply to Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus.

S you believe Judas wasn’t human?

That he was a literal demon?

 

[JLB]

So, God foresaw what Judas would choose to do and then planned the whole timing of Jesus's death around that choice, which just so happened to be in Jerusalem during Passover?

God allows human choice.

Judas had a choice.

Judas was predestined, chosen to reign with Christ and the others in the age to come.

God foresaw what Judas would do.

Nevertheless Judas had a choice to repent, just like Peter had a choice.

God foresaw that Peter would repent and return and be restored, and prophesied to Peter beforehand…when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.

But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.
Luke 22:32


God will always want us to return, like the Father in the story of the prodigal son, (which Judas heard) but we must choose.

He will take what was meant for evil and turn it for good, if we will choose to repent and be restored.

Peter returned, Judas committed suicide.

God foresaw it all.

 

[mailmandan]

S you believe Judas wasn’t human?

That he was a literal demon?

Jesus used that term to describe Judas Iscariot, not as a literal devil, but as someone aligned with the devil. It highlights his betrayal. Judas was not a saint.

 

[JLB]

That is my opinion my brother.

Ok

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69

 

[JLB]

My dear friend.....Nowhere in Scripture is Judas described as believing in Jesus as Lord or Savior.

So he followed Jesus for three and half years and was promoted to an apostle because he didn’t believe in Him?

Bro, that makes zero sense.

Judas didn’t believe to the end.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Those who don’t believe to the end, their believing in which they did at the beginning to saved, was done in vain.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13

This is what the parable of the Sower teaches about persecution and falling away.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

 

[JLB]

Jesus used that term to describe Judas Iscariot, not as a literal devil, but as someone aligned with the devil. It highlights his betrayal. Judas was not a saint.

Like Peter.

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

 

[mailmandan]

Like Peter.

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

Not exactly like Peter. The Bible says that Satan entered Judas Iscariot (John 13:27) and Judas ultimately betrayed Jesus. That was never said of Peter.

Now this is not a literal labeling of Peter as the devil, but rather a recognition that Peter's current perspective in response to Jesus going to Jerusalem, suffering many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and being killed and on the third day be raised to life was swayed by human reasoning which is influenced by the devil.

Peter was not influenced in the sense of possession, but in the sense that he is promoting a worldly perspective that is not in line with God's will.

 

[JLB]

Now this is not a literal labeling of Peter as the devil

Just like Judas.

 

[mailmandan]

Just like Judas.

I don't recall anyone saying that Judas or Peter were literally the devil.

 

[mailmandan]

Ok

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69

Peter was speaking on behalf of the 12 disciples, assuming that included Judas, since he looked like the real deal to Peter and the rest of the disciples, yet only Jesus infallibly knew Judas ' heart and said, "he is a devil!" (John 6:70)

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and its not always easy telling them apart but there is no fooling Jesus.

 

[JLB]

I don't recall anyone saying that Judas or Peter were literally the devil.

Jesus Refered to both Peter and Judas as Satan and a devil.

 

[JLB]

Peter was speaking on behalf of the 12 disciples, assuming that included Judas, since he looked like the real deal to Peter and the rest of the disciples, yet only Jesus infallibly knew Judas ' heart and said, "he is a devil!" (John 6:70)

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and its not always easy telling them apart but there is no fooling Jesus.

The scriptures said … we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God


Judas like the other eleven, believe Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, and demonstrated they believed by following Him, even after the other disciples turned away from Him.


Judas and Peter both fell way from Christ.

Peter returned, and was restored.

Judas did not.