Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

If you mean he was saved and then got lost, probably not. If you look at the passage below, Jesus is saying he is not clean like the others are. Yet he's getting ready to wash their feet, which they all need. So we know he's talking about Judas not being clean in regard to the bath, not the feet:

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.” 11For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are clean.” John 13:10-11

Yes being unclean refers to sin. Judas had been stealing money from the money bag.

When we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This sin is what gave Satan the legal right to enter Judas and influence him to become a traitor.

When Satan finished with Judas he left him. Then Judas was ashamed and instead of repenting and returning like Peter, he hung himself.

Judas always had a choice.

God foresaw all of these things and even foretold them.
 
In Judas, we have a clear example of how a person can be religious, hear the Word of God taught, witness genuine miracles, and for all appearances seem to be saved, and yet not be born again.

He is the perfect example of Matthew 7......"Many will say Lord, Lord........."

The word "Devil" in the Scripture you posted is a referrence to BETRAYAL.

In Judas we see how he fell away, or departed from the faith.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Jesus said it this way -

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13


Judas believed for a while, then became a traitor.
 
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71

How could Judas be an unbeliever if he was a disciple who followed Jesus Christ, and then was promoted to an apostle?

Makes no sense.

Do you believe Judas was a literal demon, or a person who was opposing what Jesus had been given to do by the Father?

  1. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

Isn’t that what Peter was doing when Jesus called him Satan?


IMG_1441.jpeg
 
Your complaint is directed toward the apostle Paul, John, and sometimes other writers of the NT, since they are the ones who wrote about what we are debating about.

On the other hand, Jesus was primarily an evangelist to Israel, and the reason why he didn't get into deeper spiritual explanations like Paul did. People in Israel should already have known about being born of God as is explained in John 3, and they should have already known about faith as explained in Heb. 11. Paul declares this by saying they had the oracles of God. If they had known about these basics, they would have known about God being sovereign over their salvation, which would have induced the faith (i.e. trust) in Christ that Jesus' preaching should have induced.

So Paul's teaching on justification and other "hard things to understand" (so says Peter) was written mainly for gentile disciples for their assurance and comfort. It takes time and effort to think through such things, which the only consistent conclusion one can come to is that God is sovereign over our salvation.

So when you gripe about justification by faith being something "we make too complicated," you are revealing that you really don't understand what Paul wrote about it. All this debate is about the distinction (but not separation) between justification and personal deeds. When someone doesn't understand this distinction, and keeps trying to claim that works in addition to faith is the cause of salvation, then that distinction becomes "too complicated" to understand, which was the error of Trent. The error is assuming that James' definition of 'faith' in Ja. 2:24 is exactly the same as Paul's definition in Rom. 3:28, and such an error is catastrophic.
Looks like scripture teaches that it IS rather very simple....

Faith alone will not save anyone...because without works it is a dead faith.

FAITH PLUS SACRIFICING FOR JESUS
Phillippians 1:29
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,


FAITH PLUS LOVE
1 Corinthians 13:2
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.



FAITH PLUS WORKS
James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



FAITH PLUS OBEDIENCE
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.



FAITH PLUS BEARING GOOD FRUIT
Matthew 3:8
8 "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;



Perhaps Paul was difficult to understand...which is why this debate rages on....
but the above is very clear.
 
Be sure to read post #1.052 again.

In John 13:10, Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

In regards to Judas being chosen, in John 13:18, we read - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' By Jesus choosing Judas, that does not mean that Judas was saved and Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus and Jesus knew it from the beginning. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.
 
How could Judas be an unbeliever if he was a disciple who followed Jesus Christ, and then was promoted to an apostle?

Makes no sense.
Makes perfect sense once you understand there are wheat and tares, (Matthew 13:24-30) false brethren, (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4) false apostles, (1 Corinthians 11:13-15) false disciples, (John 6:64-66) in scripture. Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord.. (Matthew 7:21:23)

Just being one of the 12 disciples does not necessarily mean that Judas was saved. Apparently, Judas may have believed that Jesus has the power to heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)
 
Ok. I see now.

Could you share the scriptures that teach us that Judas didn’t “spiritually” hear Jesus and therefore didn’t “spiritually” follow Jesus?
It's seen in his behavior along with the fact that Jesus condemned him. "A bad tree brings forth bad fruit," so says Jesus. "You do not hear My voice because you are not My sheep," so says Jesus. Again, you simply cannot interpret scripture according to its original meaning, therefore you don't see it.
 
Looks like scripture teaches that it IS rather very simple....

Faith alone will not save anyone...because without works it is a dead faith.

FAITH PLUS SACRIFICING FOR JESUS
Phillippians 1:29
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,


FAITH PLUS LOVE
1 Corinthians 13:2
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.



FAITH PLUS WORKS
James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



FAITH PLUS OBEDIENCE
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.



FAITH PLUS BEARING GOOD FRUIT
Matthew 3:8
8 "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;



Perhaps Paul was difficult to understand...which is why this debate rages on....
but the above is very clear.
It is not the statements of scripture you cite that is unclear, but the soteriology behind your conclusions that is in error. No one is debating the simplicity of these commands and statements. What is being debated is whether or not God is sovereign in each individuals' salvation, which you and your cronies deny. It colors your understanding of what you read. So when you read Ja. 2:24, you conclude that faith plus your works result in you being saved, which is contrary to what Paul taught in Galatians, Ephesians, and Romans. It only shows that you don't understand Paul's writings, and it's like a veil over your eyes when you read the scripture. So then, why continue debating something you don't understand?
 
It is not the statements of scripture you cite that is unclear, but the soteriology behind your conclusions that is in error. No one is debating the simplicity of these commands and statements. What is being debated is whether or not God is sovereign in each individuals' salvation, which you and your cronies deny. It colors your understanding of what you read. So when you read Ja. 2:24, you conclude that faith plus your works result in you being saved, which is contrary to what Paul taught in Galatians, Ephesians, and Romans. It only shows that you don't understand Paul's writings, and it's like a veil over your eyes when you read the scripture. So then, why continue debating something you don't understand?
Agreed.
You shouldn't debate something you don't understand.

And a shift in your attitude would be nice.
 
Looks like scripture teaches that it IS rather very simple....

Faith alone will not save anyone...because without works it is a dead faith.
An empty profession of faith, dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works) which is what James is talking about (James 2:14) cannot save anyone. Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
FAITH PLUS SACRIFICING FOR JESUS
Phillippians 1:29
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
Suffering for Jesus' sake follows saving faith in Christ. Paul did not say justified by faith + suffering in Romans 5:1 or saved by grace through faith + suffering in Ephesians 2:8,9.
FAITH PLUS LOVE
1 Corinthians 13:2
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Be sure to go back and read post #121 from the link below:
FAITH PLUS WORKS
James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Once again, go back and read post #121 from the link below:

FAITH PLUS OBEDIENCE
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
1 John 2:3 - by this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, which is 'descriptive' of genuine believers. John is not talking about flawlessly obeying all of the commandments 100% of the time/sinless perfection. Only Jesus Christ has accomplished that. (Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22) Man has failed. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) Verse 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is 'descriptive' of unbelievers.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.
FAITH PLUS BEARING GOOD FRUIT
Matthew 3:8
8 "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;
Bearing good fruit is the fruit of repentance (Acts 26:20) but not the essence of repentance (change of mind).
Perhaps Paul was difficult to understand...which is why this debate rages on....
but the above is very clear.
Apparently Paul is difficult to understand for those who confuse the fruit of salvation with the root of salvation and end up promoting salvation by faith + works. Been there, done that prior to my conversion but now I BELIEVE. ✝️
 
In Judas we see how he fell away, or departed from the faith.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Jesus said it this way -

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13


Judas believed for a while, then became a traitor.
I do not agree in that ..."Judas believed for awhile, then became a traitor".

Do you believe that John 17:12 is a reference to Judas..........
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Earlier, in Matthew 10:1-4 Jesus mentioned that He had taught the message of God to His inner circle. Among that group was Judas, whom Jesus always knew was a false believer.
It was only Judas of the Twelve, who chose to ignore what he saw from Christ, to his own ruin in Mark 14:21..........
"The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born."

IMHO, Judas was never a true Christian. Therefore, he never lost his salvation. But, some believe since he was a disciple and chosen by Jesus, then he had to have been a true believer. However, we find that is not the case. Let’s take a look at what Jesus said.

John 6:64-65, .....
“‘But there are some of you who do not believe.’ For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.’“
 
I call that "religious, but not right with God." To the remaining 11 disciples, Judas may have looked like the real deal but Jesus knew his heart and clearly stated, "he is a devil!" (John 6:70)

1. Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
2. Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
3. Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
4. Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
5. Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
6. Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
7. Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
8. Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
9. Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
10. Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
11. Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
12. Judas' habitation to be desolate......Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25
The "religious but lost" are what fills our churches today.

Dr. Graham once wrote that..."I believe that only 25% of our church members are truly born again.
 
Judas always had a choice.

God foresaw all of these things and even foretold them.
Those two things cannot both be true.

Act 1:16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” (ESV)

If Judas was chosen to betray Jesus and it was prophesied long before, could he really have "always had a choice"?

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)

If Judas betrayed Jesus "according to the definite plan . . . of God," is there any room for choice at all for Judas?
 
This whole discussion on justification is relatively simple and straightforward. As I've stated more than once, "faith alone" is almost always short for justification (being declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Faith alone is opposed to faith and works for justification. I haven't seen or heard of anyone say that "faith alone" means that we never, ever have to do works after being justified, which seems to be the common straw man in this thread, beginning with the OP.

Paul unequivocally states many times that we are justified by grace through faith as a gift from God. To be justified in this sense is to be declared righteous, to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us freely as gift to be appropriated by faith, which is also a gift from God, a work of the Holy Spirit. Justification (being declared righteous) is the initial moment of salvation, hence why Paul says "For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8).

James's use of "justified" is simply that of "evidence." This is how it is most often used these days. James's argument is that good works are proof of one's salvation, both to oneself and before others. What James is not saying is that good works plus faith save us. If a person professes to be a follower of Christ, if they profess to have faith, but doesn't do good works and doesn't think they are necessary, then they do not actually have faith at all. Their "faith" is false and dead.
 
Yes being unclean refers to sin. Judas had been stealing money from the money bag.

When we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This sin is what gave Satan the legal right to enter Judas and influence him to become a traitor.

When Satan finished with Judas he left him. Then Judas was ashamed and instead of repenting and returning like Peter, he hung himself.

Judas always had a choice.

God foresaw all of these things and even foretold them.
You said....
"Judas always had a choice.".

That is a tough call brother. Don't set that in stone as a Christian doctrine. Given all the information available to us, it’s possible that Judas did have a choice about whether he betrayed Jesus, a possibility to reject Satan’s suggestions.

Notably, when Peter talks about Old Testament prophecies concerning Judas in Acts 1:15-26 the two prophecies mention describing what would happen after Judas betrayed Jesus, nothing that declares he was fated to betray him.
 
This whole discussion on justification is relatively simple and straightforward. As I've stated more than once, "faith alone" is almost always short for justification (being declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Faith alone is opposed to faith and works for justification. I haven't seen or heard of anyone say that "faith alone" means that we never, ever have to do works after being justified, which seems to be the common straw man in this thread, beginning with the OP.

Paul unequivocally states many times that we are justified by grace through faith as a gift from God. To be justified in this sense is to be declared righteous, to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us freely as gift to be appropriated by faith, which is also a gift from God, a work of the Holy Spirit. Justification (being declared righteous) is the initial moment of salvation, hence why Paul says "For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8).

James's use of "justified" is simply that of "evidence." This is how it is most often used these days. James's argument is that good works are proof of one's salvation, both to oneself and before others. What James is not saying is that good works plus faith save us. If a person professes to be a follower of Christ, if they profess to have faith, but doesn't do good works and doesn't think they are necessary, then they do not actually have faith at all. Their "faith" is false and dead.
You said.....
" I haven't seen or heard of anyone say that "faith alone" means that we never, ever have to do works after being justified, which seems to be the common straw man in this thread, beginning with the OP."

Actually, I have said exactly that several times now. Since you missed it I will say it again........
"We are saved by Faith Alone through the grace of God", and NO works are required to be saved/justified.!

That is exactly what God said in Ephesians 2:8-9. Now.. James says in 2:24 that ........
"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

That simply means that those who truly trust in God naturally end up participating in good works.
As James showed in prior verses, no one can be saved by good works. Works are not required for salvation—they are a "symptom" of saving faith.
In verse 22, he used the Greek word eteleiōthē to explain and demand that good works as the "completion," or the natural end result, of saving faith.

On purely a personal observation, I have always been perplexed by those (Some here on this site) people who use James 2:24 to somehow validate that we are saved by works or that works must be added to what Jesus did for us.

For this discussion I think it should be noted there are two things to be remembered.

#1. James is not claiming works are required for salvation. His entire argument has been about what kind of faith actually saves. He is on the attack against the attitude that one can be saved by a faith that has no works. He has stated repeatedly that such a faith is dead, useless. He is not saying that faith is not the "sole" means through which we receive God's grace; he is saying that a so-called-"faith" which results in no actions is not a genuine faith. A "works-less" faith cannot justify anyone.

#2. James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation. This includes his quote in verse 23 that Abraham was counted as righteous for believing God.

As I know you are aware, Context is the key to all Bible study, and especially for resolving apparent contradictions. In Paul's writings, it is clear he is describing "justification" in the sense of salvation: being declared righteous by God. James, according to this context, is referring to "justification" in the sense of proof for human beings.

Faith saves, says James, but "saving faith" cannot be a mere intellectual opinion, which produces no resulting actions.
 
You said.....
" I haven't seen or heard of anyone say that "faith alone" means that we never, ever have to do works after being justified, which seems to be the common straw man in this thread, beginning with the OP."

Actually, I have said exactly that several times now. Since you missed it I will say it again........
"We are saved by Faith Alone through the grace of God", and NO works are required to be saved/justified.!
You seem to have missed my point, as everything you said agrees with my post. I stated: "I haven't seen or heard of anyone say that "faith alone" means that we never, ever have to do works after being justified, which seems to be the common straw man in this thread, beginning with the OP."
 
Just being one of the 12 disciples does not necessarily mean that Judas was saved.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27

Judas belonged to the Father, and was given to the Son.

Judas heard the call to follow Jesus just like the other 11.

Judas followed Jesus for three and half years.

Judas was promoted to an apostle like the other eleven.

How long does a person need to follow Jesus before they are saved?
 
It's seen in his behavior along with the fact that Jesus condemned him. "A bad tree brings forth bad fruit," so says Jesus. "You do not hear My voice because you are not My sheep," so says Jesus. Again, you simply cannot interpret scripture according to its original meaning, therefore you don't see it.

Could you share the scriptures that teach us that Judas didn’t “spiritually” hear Jesus and therefore didn’t “spiritually” follow Jesus?
 
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