Is baptism required for salvation?

[donadams]

You just made baptism a work. Just like the Hebrews made circumcision a work.

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

1. As we have discussed before. This entire passage may not even be scripture. It's clear that at least most people who read the Gospel of Mark did not read these words because it was not in what they had to read.
2. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved... now look at the second half which is so often left out for the convenience of cherry picking. But whoever does not believe is condemned already. Emphasis on baptism not present.. belief is what matters.
3. The apostle Paul, the greatest contributor to the new Testament .

Was thankful that he baptized so few of the Corinthian saints because they weren't mature enough and they would have fought over who they needed to be baptized by. He goes on further to say that
"so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

You are making baptism a work in which you put your faith. Please go read the book of Romans and everywhere you read the word circumcision put baptism in it's place because you're doing the exact same thing.

baptism is a necessity not a work! you can baptize yourself!

can we become children of God by accepting Christ by faith alone?

not according to scripture

Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

receiving Christ make it possible to born again (baptism) into the family of God!

Jn 3:5 you cannot enter!
1 pet 2:11 an entrance must be administered unto you !

thks

 

[donadams]

Not the baptism with the Holy Spirit, whereby Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
Acts 1:5

The baptism that that is associated with salvation is where the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ; the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13

one christian sacrament of baptism eph 4:5 by water and the spirit Jn 3:5 required for salvation mk 16:16 thks

 

[JLB]

one christian sacrament of baptism eph 4:5 by water and the spirit Jn 3:5 required for salvation mk 16:16 thks

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

• John truly baptized with water
• but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit

I know you can count, and I know you can plainly see there is more than one baptism.

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:1-2


There is one (unifying) baptism by which we are baptized into one body and that is not water baptism.


endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

The unity of the Spirit is what Paul has in mind and teaches there in one body though many members.

The one unifying baptism by which we are connected to each other in one body is the baptism which only the Spirit can accomplish.

In this baptism the Holy Spirit Himself, not a human being, is the Baptizer.


Notice the same contextual language of this scripture -

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

In this baptism we plainly see the Holy Spirit is the one doing the baptizing.


In water baptism, John (a human) is the one doing the baptizing.

 

[Walpole]

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

• John truly baptized with water
• but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit

I know you can count, and I know you can plainly see there is more than one baptism.

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:1-2


There is one (unifying) baptism by which we are baptized into one body and that is not water baptism.


endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

The unity of the Spirit is what Paul has in mind and teaches there in one body though many members.

The one unifying baptism by which we are connected to each other in one body is the baptism which only the Spirit can accomplish.

In this baptism the Holy Spirit Himself, not a human being, is the Baptizer.


Notice the same contextual language of this scripture -

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

In this baptism we plainly see the Holy Spirit is the one doing the baptizing.


In water baptism, John (a human) is the one doing the baptizing.

At the end of St. Matthew's Gospel, our Blessed Lord instructs His Apostles to teach and baptize all nations. He gives the Apostles the the proper form for administering the sacrament, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Mt 28:19)

1. Can you provide an example where a baptism is done according to Jesus' instructions without water?

2. Can you give me the Scripture where the instructions / formula for one of these other baptisms you say exists is given? For example, if I want a "John baptism", how do I get one?

 

[donadams]

Just a quick question(thought).

Is baptism an absolute requirement for salvation?

Was the prisoner, whom Jesus said would be in Paradise, baptised?

yes ordinarily required!

heb 9:16-17 required first

thks

 

[JLB]

Can you provide an example where a baptism is done according to Jesus' instructions without water?

First and foremost no where in the Bible is anyone baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Water baptism is always done in the name of Jesus.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

• They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:44-48

• Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Water baptism is done in the name of Jesus.

The Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and no water was involved.

Later they were baptized with water in the name of Jesus.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

where that in scripture?

where?

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

we die with Christ in baptism

Yes, Baptism of the HS. not baptism in water

in baptism we put on Christ

No. we are put in christ. but again, Not baptism of water but of the HS

baptism is the outward sign and initiation of the new covenant

yes. And a symbol of what happens when we are born again of God

not saved but in hr process of salvation
must abide in Christ and bear fruit Jn 15:1-5

yes. but if your not saved, non of this matters

suffer phil 1:29

endure to the end matt 10:22

thks

endure to the end is talking about the tribulation period. and talking about physical life. not spiritual life

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Baptized with water - or spirit and fire? John the baptist declared that indeed he baptized with water, Jesus the one who was to come, whose sandal straps he was not worthy to loose, will baptize with spirit and fire.

amen everyone will be baptized ny Jesus

we need to chose which one..

HS - salvation

Fire. Hell

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Hi onlysaved

So you do agree that baptism is a 'step of obedience'. And I'm going to 'assume' that you do believe Jesus' words that obedience to his commands is a necessary part of our working out our salvation with trembling. So, if one is not baptized, are they obedient to Jesus' commands?

if we are going to try to earn salvation by obedience. God set the standard.

Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

If your not perfect.. Then no amount of obedience will save you

 

[Eternally-grateful]

whats the water for? Jn 3:5

physical birth

One must be born again (literally a second time)

there are two births

birth in water (physical)

birth in the spirit (spiritual birth)

 

[Eternally-grateful]

It's always just a matter of time before the anti-Sacramentalists throw out the amniotic fluid argument. This is clearly fallacious for multiple reasons.

First, if the water refers to natural birth, Jesus would be affirming Nicodemus' erroneous understanding of being born again. Nicodemus’ question to Jesus was clearly sarcastic. For surely he knew he could not climb back into his mother’s womb for a second birth. The question again was how a man can be born again, that is a second time. If the “water” which Jesus refers to is birth / amniotic fluid, then Jesus would be affirming Nicodemus’ sarcastic suggestion that he climb back into his mother’s womb for a second birth.

---> What does St. John record Jesus and the Apostles doing after this encounter with Nicodemus? (See John 3:22)

---> Why does the setting occur in Aenon? (See John 3:23)


Secondly, NOWHERE in Scripture is being born synonymous with being "born of water." Lastly, our Blessed Lord says man must be born "of" water. The Greek word for "of" is ἐk, which means from / of / an origin of something. (Source) Man is not birthed from water, but rather from a mother; that is, a person. Man is not born from water / amniotic fluid. In other words, water is not the origin of man's natural birth and Scripture never refers to it as such. (e.g. Matthew 1:1-11)

Third, St. Peter refers to baptism as the antitype of the deluge. In Christianity, the reality of something always surpasses the type / figure of it. If baptism is merely an empty ritual as Protestants here are arguing, then it would be the very first time in all of Scripture where the type / figure of something would have surpassed the reality of it.

Lastly, at the end of St. Matthew's Gospel, Christ instructs His Apostles to teach and baptize all nations. He gives the Apostles the the proper form for administering the sacrament, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Mt 28:19) No one, not even the most ardent anti-sacramentalist Protestant, use this form for a baptism sans water! In other words, how many of you perform "dry" baptisms, that is, a baptism without water???


It is important to understand the genesis of this anti-Sacramentalism with regards to Christian baptism. Zwingli was bold enough to state the Apostles and fathers were actually wrong about baptism, and that his (Zwingli's) understanding was a new and different path from the regula fidei of Christianity...

"In this matter of baptism - if I may be pardoned for saying it - I can only conclude that all the doctors have been in error from the time of the Apostles...At many points we shall have to tread a different path from that taken either by ancient or more modern writers or by our own contemporaries." (Zwingli, De Baptismo, 1525 A.D.)


In Christianity, matter...matters.

lol

Yet jesus never mentions baptism once

A flaw with the sacramental croud is they reject the fact when Nicodemus asked how this can be, What must we do.

jesus said belief only. No mention of baptism.

That which is born of flesh (water) is flesh

that which is born of spirit is spirit.

We must be born again (a second time.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

You just made baptism a work. Just like the Hebrews made circumcision a work.

BINGO!

 

[Eternally-grateful]

yes ordinarily required!

heb 9:16-17 required first

thks

then you better be perfect in all areas.

Because if you think the cross was not enough. Your on your own

 

[JLB]

if we are going to try to earn salvation by obedience. God set the standard.

Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

If your not perfect.. Then no amount of obedience will save you

While at the same time only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

If we believe the Gospel then we must obey the Gospel Command to repent.

 

[Walpole]

You just made baptism a work. Just like the Hebrews made circumcision a work.

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

1. As we have discussed before. This entire passage may not even be scripture. It's clear that at least most people who read the Gospel of Mark did not read these words because it was not in what they had to read.
2. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved... now look at the second half which is so often left out for the convenience of cherry picking. But whoever does not believe is condemned already. Emphasis on baptism not present.. belief is what matters.
3. The apostle Paul, the greatest contributor to the new Testament .

Was thankful that he baptized so few of the Corinthian saints because they weren't mature enough and they would have fought over who they needed to be baptized by. He goes on further to say that
"so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

You are making baptism a work in which you put your faith. Please go read the book of Romans and everywhere you read the word circumcision put baptism in it's place because you're doing the exact same thing.

Baptism is not a work, as St. Paul explicitly tells Titus. He tells the young bishop, “…he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration…” (Titus 3:5-7). Regeneration renewal, new birth, born again. (Source). How is being born again accomplished? By washing through the water and Holy Spirit that is baptism, as Jesus explained to Nicodemus in John 3.

As a reminder, we also have the words of Scripture which EXPLICITLY state baptism now saves you. St. Peter, connecting the deluge and the eight souls saved by water to the waters of baptism states, “Baptism, which corresponds to this (the deluge), now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 3:20-21)

Just as the deluge was not a work, so too baptism is not a work. Baptism, by definition, necessitates water. But water by itself is not a baptism and exercises no power on its own; for it is but a material sign of what is communicated spiritually. It is only with the Holy Spirit does it become baptism. For baptism requires water and the Holy Spirit. (cf. John 3:5)

 

[Walpole]

lol

Yet jesus never mentions baptism once

A flaw with the sacramental croud is they reject the fact when Nicodemus asked how this can be, What must we do.

jesus said belief only. No mention of baptism.

That which is born of flesh (water) is flesh

that which is born of spirit is spirit.

We must be born again (a second time.

Sorry but at the end of St. Matthew's Gospel, Jesus' final instruction to His Apostles is to teach and baptize all nations. He gives the Apostles the the proper form for administering the sacrament, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Mt 28:19)

Jesus EXPLICITY mensions baptism.

 

[Walpole]

First and foremost no where in the Bible is anyone baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Water baptism is always done in the name of Jesus.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

• They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:44-48

• Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Water baptism is done in the name of Jesus.

The Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and no water was involved.

Later they were baptized with water in the name of Jesus.

Jesus' final instructions to the Apostles:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matthe 28:19)

If you are baptizing people apart from this form, your baptisms are not valid. Furthermore, can you provide an example of people being dry baptized, that is, baptized without the use of water? Is there ANY evidence of Christians doing this anywhere in history? Does your church do this?

 

[JLB]

If you are baptizing people apart from this form, your baptisms are not valid.

Here is how His Apostles baptized people in water.

Water baptism is always done in the name of Jesus.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17

• They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

again

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:44-48

• Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Water baptism is done in the name of Jesus.


Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Acts 19:2-6


When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[JLB]

Sorry but at the end of St. Matthew's Gospel, Jesus' final instruction to His Apostles is to teach and baptize all nations. He gives the Apostles the the proper form for administering the sacrament, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Mt 28:19)

Jesus EXPLICITY mensions baptism.

What name did all the fullness of the Godhead choose to dwell in?

 

[donadams]

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6

Jesus is answering the question of Nicodemus about being born again. Contextually that is what this conversation is about.
Birth. The New Birth.

Jesus uses natural birth to help Nicodemus understand spiritual birth.

• Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

• Answer: Born of water refers to natural birth.

Jesus plainly explains this in the next verse.

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of water refers to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth.


If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12


Born of the flesh = natural birth = earthly things

Born of the Spirit = spiritual birth = heavenly things.

where does scripture say born of water:
born agian of spirit:

we are born again with water AND AND AND the Spirit

thks