- Dec 2, 2022
- 6,068
- 351
to the end? until you die?
mk 13:13 and matt 24:13 what does being in the trib period change?
matt 10:22 and rev 2:10 are not in the trib?
-
-
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
Is baptism required for salvation?
- Thread starter dwb001
- Start date
mk 13:13 and matt 24:13 what does being in the trib period change?
matt 10:22 and rev 2:10 are not in the trib?
- Dec 2, 2022
- 6,068
- 351
but it says born again by both Water & the Spirit!
not born of water!
born again of the spirit!
they immediately went to the river to baptize
Jn 3:22-23
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
thks
Eternally-grateful
Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 147
- 57
how will you let Jesus baptize you
Holy spirit (put you in the barn)
Fire that shall never be quenched (hellfire)
the choice is up to you..
- Dec 2, 2022
- 6,068
- 351
who's on their own?
abide in Christ to bear fruit
apart from Christ and His life (grace) nothing! Jn 15:1-5
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
On the royal way of the cross and suffering. Phil 1:29
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrowis the way, which leadeth unto life...
thks
Eternally-grateful
Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 147
- 57
if your trying to be good enough, You are
Salvation is a gift. We do not earn a gift.
We produce fruit because we are saved, and in christ, not to get in
yes the gate is narrow. did you know legalistic thinking (it is faith in God plus our works) is the largest religious thinking in the world?
there is your wide gate
the narrow gate is grace through faith. and so few who believe it
Johann!@#
Member
- Sep 10, 2023
- 379
- 117
Glad to see you here, Eternally-grateful... but it seems you may have the cart before the horse...there’s nothing legalistic in what’s being said here.
And what stands written, Perfect tense.
Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Romans 2:6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
1 Peter 1:17
And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,
James 2:14-26
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. ...
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Romans 14:12
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Acts 17:31
Because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ...
Matthew 12:36-37
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Jeremiah 17:10
“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”
Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Proverbs 24:12
If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it, and will he not repay man according to his work?
Psalm 62:12
And that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For you will render to a man according to his work.
God bless.
Johann.
- Jul 13, 2012
- 39,736
- 8,316
Again there are three baptisms.
Which one are you referring to?
If you don’t understand or know where these three baptisms are identified in scripture, just ask me and I will list them for you and anyone else.
If you believe there is only one baptism, such as water baptism them please explain how your denomination does water baptism.
- Jul 13, 2012
- 39,736
- 8,316
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17
- They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
The apostles baptized people in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Notice also that the scripture says they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
If this was all that was needed, then why did the Apostles travel all the way to Samaria to bring something else?
- Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Does you denomination or organization practice this?
Laying hands on the people who had been baptized in water, BECAUSE they had ONLY been Baptized in water, so that the people who had ONLY been Baptized in water would receive the Holy Spirit.
Johann!@#
Member
- Sep 10, 2023
- 379
- 117
Hi brother.
But remember, hundreds of thousands of real Christians have believed each and every one of the following interpretations:
1. The seal of the New Covenant as circumcision was of the Old Covenant.
2. Baptismal regeneration, or unto repentance for the remission of sins for the reception of the Holy Spirit.
3. An outward symbol of an inward work of grace.
4. A witness of the believer’s salvation to the world.
5. A door of entrance into the Church.
6. A watery burial to acknowledge identification with Christ in death, burial and resurrection.
Five out of the six interpretations must be supported by implication or inference and by the creeds and practices of certain denominations which were organized centuries after the death of the apostles of Christ. There is not one verse to prove that water baptism was received by the believer as a witness to the world that he had become a member of the Body of Christ.
The interpretation of water baptism unto repentance for the remission of sins, is supported by Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:3; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12 to 16; Acts 19:3 to 7. This baptism began with the ministry of John the Baptist: Hear his own words: John 1:31:
“AND I KNEW HIM NOT: BUT THAT HE SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST TO ISRAEL, THEREFORE AM I COME BAPTIZING WITH WATER.”
There was one baptism for God’s people while Christ was on earth. Christ’s baptism unto death took place on the cross. Luke 12:47 to 52. After the close of the Book of Acts, the statement in Ephesians 4:5, is “one baptism”. Baptism was not something new with Israel. Hebrews 9:10. But the baptism committed to John had a special significance. There were three baptisms in the “Acts” period, “water baptism”, “Holy Spirit baptism”, and “death baptism”. Acts 1:5; Acts 11:14 and 15; I Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Acts 19:2 to 7 and Romans 8:3.
When the twelve apostles were baptized, many months before Christ’s baptism unto death, before His resurrection, the Twelve knew not what the rising from the dead meant and knew nothing concerning Christ’s death baptism. Matthew 16:21 to 23; Mark 9:10; Luke 9:44 and 45; Luke 18:31 to 34; John 20:9. Therefore we observe that the Twelve were certainly not baptized with water as an indication or acknowledgment that they had been buried with Christ by baptism. And certainly not to indicate that they had joined the Church, which is His Body. That Church was not when they were baptized. The Twelve never received the second water baptism after Christ’s death baptism. Water baptism is called by different names “a kingdom ordinance,” “a church ordinance,” “New Testament baptism”, “kingdom baptism”, “Christian baptism”. But all of these names have been suggested by men: they are not found in the Bible.
All students of the Word of God are in agreement that the baptism of I Corinthians 12:13 is not water baptism.
I Corinthians 12:13:
“FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, WHETHER WE BE BOND OR FREE; AND HAVE BEEN ALL MADE TO DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT.”
“Baptized in One Spirit into One Body.” In Ephesians 4:4 to 6 there is mention of one Body, one Spirit, one Baptism. Jews and Greeks were not baptized in one Spirit into one Body at the time John Baptist was baptizing with water that Christ might be made manifest to Israel; at the time the Twelve were baptized with water. It is one thing for Israel to have water baptism to have their Messiah manifested to them: it is quite a different thing for Israelites and Gentiles to be united in One Body by Holy Spirit baptism. John’s water baptism was in connection with Christ’s proclamation of the kingdom to Israel. Therefore there is Scriptural authority for “kingdom baptism”. But “Christian baptism” is an indefinite, uncertain expression; an expression from the pen of theologians but not found in the Bible: Some differentiate between kingdom water baptism while Christ was on earth, and what they call Christian water baptism after the Spirit came from heaven. But they cannot Scripturally prove the two different water baptisms by the experience of Twelve. According to this discrimination the Twelve never received Christian baptism; only Israelitish kingdom baptism.
If John’s baptism was New Covenant baptism, and if there is anything to the law of first occurrence, what meaning had water baptism until the last occurrence of water baptism in Acts 19:2 to 7? We should not prove the meaning by the exception to the order set forth in Acts 10:34 to 48, the experience of Cornelius and his house; remembering that Cornelius was the first Gentile to come in with the Jews who required a sign.
There is no Scriptural authority for the two-fold designation of water baptism. “kingdom baptism”, and “Christian baptism”. This is theory and tradition.
Neither has a Christian Scriptural authority for changing the order of Mark 16:16, “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”, to “he that believeth and is saved shall be baptized”. If we are to hold on to water on the authority of that Scripture, let us observe the order. If we do, how can we reconcile that gospel with the gospel of Romans 3:24 and Ephesians 2:8 and 9? Water baptism has no place in the message of pure grace as it had in Mark 16:16. Christ sent Paul not to baptize. I Corinthians 1:17.
This leads us to this important declaration. No Scripture instructs one member of the Body of Ephesians to baptize with water another believer who is already a member of that Body. The one baptism of Ephesians 4:5, like the one baptism of Romans 6:3, produces a spiritual change in the sinner. By that one baptism the believing sinner is identified with Christ in death, burial and resurrection. As the result of that one baptism, the believer is seated in the heavenlies in Christ and blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies. Forever is he a member of the Body of Christ. Water baptism today produces no spiritual change in any sinner or saint: Water baptism neither helps to save any sinner nor helps to keep him saved. All such messengers admit that water baptism has absolutely no efficacy to aid toward, or add to, the believer’s completeness in Christ or membership in His Body. Colossians 2:10. Water baptism is not required by God for membership in the true Church, which is the Body of Christ. Water baptism is not required for salvation or regeneration. Water baptism is not demanded as a condition for receiving the Holy Spirit. Then water baptism, according to Ephesians, and according to the admissions of present-day grace preachers, does not have the meaning that it had in Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:3 to 7 or in Acts 8:12 to 17.
What is its meaning? Can you give a Scriptural answer and not a human theory?, What men have been teaching and preaching will never satisfy the searching mind of the true Berean. Do not follow established creeds or the tradition of the elders. Church habits and Bible truth may differ. After you have prayed earnestly and searched the Scriptures, diligently and have been thereby convinced as to which of the more than one dozen interpretations, modes and signification’s practiced by orthodox Christians is demanded for members of the Body of Christ, obey the demand and then look for the man who is Scripturally qualified to baptize.
But remember; study diligently the Word of God before you answer to God, “to be or not to be baptized”. When you ask men, however spiritual they may be, as a rule they cannot give you any definite Scripture to prove that water baptism is compatible with the gospel of the grace of God. If they quote the so-called Great Commission of Matthew 28:19 and 20 and Mark 16:14 to 18, they must admit that the instructions there were given to apostles, who were not yet in the Body of Christ, apostles who will be on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28). These apostles were ministers to the circumcision with the gospel of the circumcision. Galatians 2:7 to 9. They were commissioned before the Body began historically. They were baptized many months before the Body began historically. Then the Twelve were not baptized with water as members of the church of Ephesians 1:19 to 22. The apostle to the Gentiles plainly declared, “Christ sent me not to baptize”. I Corinthians 1:17. As members of the Body of Christ from which Scriptures are we to get our instructions concerning water baptism and the gospel of the grace of God? There is not a single word instructing members of Christ’s Body to be baptized.
To Be Or Not To Be Baptized
A SIMPLE MESSAGE ON BAPTISM Judging from the present-day controversy about water baptism it would seem that it is not possible to write a simple message on the subject. Most assuredly it requires more than a superficial study of the Scriptures to produce a strong conviction in the matter, based upo
bereanbiblesociety.org
God bless.
Johann.
Eternally-grateful
Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 147
- 57
if your trying to maintain salvation or keep from losing it, it is legalism
adding water baptism to grace is no different than adding circumcision to grace.
they are both works of righteousness
good to see you also
- Jul 13, 2012
- 39,736
- 8,316
This is definitely one of the three baptisms for followers of Christ Jesus the Messiah.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
This baptizm is where we are regenerated (born again) by the Spirit and baptized into Christ, whereby we are joined to Him as one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6:17, John 3:5-6)
Notice that each of the three baptisms are identified by the one doing the baptizing.
In this baptism the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer.
The other two are found in Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5
John, a human being baptized in water.
Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ.
Paul uses Old Testament types to illustrate this.
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:1-2
- all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Johann!@#
Member
- Sep 10, 2023
- 379
- 117
Explain this.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
God bless. Beautiful passage.
Johann.
Eternally-grateful
Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 147
- 57
I was dead in sin, and now I have been regenerated. or made alive
I was saved, or regenerated or quickened by grace
I was raised by God to sit in heavenly places. By grace I have been saved
That in the ages to come, through me, God will prove to the world and all the heavenly host how right in mercy and grace he is
I was saved by grace, through the means of faith.. Not by anything I did. will do. or am doing. but through my faith in him and his work and his promise
My salvation, my regeneration, my new birth, my being lifted up had nothing to do with any works I did, am doing or will do.. And I would be a food to boast that anything I did caused God to save me
for we (those who have been saved by grace through faith, Made live in him, quickened or regenerated by him, and made to sit in heavenly places) am made new. for good works.
Works are a byproduct of being saved, not required to be saved.
water baptism is a work..
I was baptized because I was born again, Made alive, and lifted up in salvation.
not to gain this salvation through my work. which would contradict everything paul said in eph 2: 1 - 9
Johann!@#
Member
- Sep 10, 2023
- 379
- 117
Thanks for the response, brother... but I get the sense that we’re not really engaging with each other-we’re talking past one another.
God bless.
J.
Eternally-grateful
Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 147
- 57
confused
you asked me to tell you what I saw. thats all i did.. how is that talking past each other? do you see something different?
- Dec 2, 2022
- 6,068
- 351
how about mk 16:16?
- Dec 2, 2022
- 6,068
- 351
noah found grace and believed God's for the salvation of his family from the flood!
was he wrong to put his faith in action
adding the works of actually building the ark that saved them?
thks
Eternally-grateful
Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 147
- 57
does mark 16: 16 trump John 1, 3, 4, 5, 6?
mark 16 also does not say baptism in water. it just sayd baptized 9what baptism is not mentioned)
also mark 16 is questionable. because it is not in the earliest manuscripts. as if it was added later. which makes sense, because nothing can be confirmed
want proof. many believers have died drinking poison and getting but by snakes..
mark 16 also does not say baptism in water. it just sayd baptized 9what baptism is not mentioned)
also mark 16 is questionable. because it is not in the earliest manuscripts. as if it was added later. which makes sense, because nothing can be confirmed
want proof. many believers have died drinking poison and getting but by snakes..
Eternally-grateful
Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 147
- 57
Noah was saved the day he said yes
Johann!@#
Member
- Sep 10, 2023
- 379
- 117
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
"for good works" Believers' lifestyles after they meet Christ are an evidence of their salvation (cf. James and 1 John). They are saved by grace through faith unto works!
They are saved to serve! Faith without works is dead, as are works without faith (cf. Mat_7:21-23 and Jas_2:14-26). Salvation is a gate and a way/road. The goal of the Father's choice is that believers be "holy and blameless" (cf. Eph_1:4).
Paul was often attacked for his radically free gospel because it seemed to encourage godless living. A gospel so seemingly unconnected to moral performance must lead to abuse. Paul's gospel was free in the grace of God, but it also demanded an appropriate response, not only in initial repentance, but in ongoing repentance. Godly living is the result, not lawlessness.
Good works are not the mechanism of salvation, but the result. This paradox of a completely free salvation and a cost-everything response is difficult to communicate, but the two must be held in a tension-filled balance.
American individualism has distorted the gospel. Humans are not saved because God loves them so much individually, but because God loves fallen mankind, mankind made in His image. He saves and changes individuals to reach more individuals. The ultimate focus of love is primarily corporate (cf. Joh_3:16), but it is received individually (cf. Joh_1:12; Rom_10:9-13; 1Co_15:1).
"which God prepared beforehand" This strong term (pro + hetoimos, " to prepare before") relates to the theological concept of predestination (cf. Eph_1:4-5; Eph_1:11) and is used only here and in Rom_9:23. God chose a people to reflect His character. Through Christ, the Father has restored His image in fallen mankind (cf. Gen_1:26-27).
Utley.
You agree?
I’ve heard some say we should just “faith it” and forget about good works..but that sounds like passivism to me, the way I see it.
Just want to make sure we are on the same page here brother.
J.
