Is baptism required for salvation?

[Carry_Your_Name]

If clergy baptize anyone they are baptized as they have authority from Christ to baptize. No one can know that the Lord is indifferent to such a baptizm as prayers are offered up by the church as well. It's just the beginning anyway. Steering the child to Christ and raising them up in the faith has great importance as well. I was baptized as an infant and steered to Jesus from my beginning by Christain parents. I have loved the Lord and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I know Him and am known by Him. He knows me well. I have had answers from Him with words in my mind. The Spirit to my spirit though I am not anyone special or in authority. When I was very young I prayed over and over I wanted to see Him. Meaning His face. Well that didn't happen but He answered my prayers in another manner. He has shown Himself to me by the Spirit. He answers prayers and He is one on Gods throne and I am a nobody. Ha!

Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it.

So no harm came to me by being baptized as a infant.

All water baptisms are replications of John the Baptist's work, Jesus was baptized by him, but Jesus never baptized anybody in water, he baptizes with the holy spirit and fire, as John foretold.

 

[Randy]

All water baptisms are replications of John the Baptist's work, Jesus was baptized by him, but Jesus never baptized anybody in water, he baptizes with the holy spirit and fire, as John foretold.

Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Paul was baptized.

Are you suggesting infant baptizm in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit in church by clergy is an act of unrighteousness or that it harmful?

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Berea was an Greek-speaking city in what is now north-central Greece; the scriptures that they studied were logically the Greek Septuagint. According to Acts many Jews and Greeks believed as result of Paul and Silas's teaching. The fact the Greeks (probably God-fearers) were part of the synagogue community further demonstrates that the Greek scriptures were what the Bereans examined.

In addition, Paul and Silas's preaching had to be extra-biblical teaching since the books of the New Testament had not been written, and a complete version of the New Testament was centuries away. The gospel that Paul and Silas preached was only available in spoken form. Thus the description in Acts shows the validity of the Septuagint scriptures and the value of extra-biblical teachings, both of which violate the modern doctrine of sola scriptura.

For reference here are the verses from Acts about the trip to Berea:

That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas off to Beroea; and when they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue. These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, including not a few Greek women and men of high standing. Acts 17:10-12

The gospel only existed in spoken form, so that was the extra-biblical teaching.


I always find it humorous when Evangelicals try to lay claim to the Bereans, given that there has NEVER been a Protestant church in Berea (modern day Veria), EVER.

Evangelical Protestants live in a fantasy world. Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. I can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, churches, baptistries (yes, Christians always believed in WATER baptism), the saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first. The same cannot be said for Protestants.

you think doing it twice will help you?

This has no bearing on what I said.

When your ready to talk. let me know. until then. I will move on.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Paul was baptized.

Are you suggesting infant baptizm in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit in church by clergy is an act of unrighteousness or that it harmful?

why would you baptize an infant?

It would do nothing for them but get them wet.

 

[JLB]

Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Paul was baptized.

Are you suggesting infant baptizm in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit in church by clergy is an act of unrighteousness or that it harmful?

Yes. Very harmful.

The child grows up thinking they have something that they don’t have; salvation

Salvation comes when a person believes the Gospel and therefore repents.

Only people who believe are to be baptized.


Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Acts 8:35-37


An infant or little child does not have the capacity to believe.

They are innocent, not knowing good from evil.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Paul was baptized.

Are you suggesting infant baptizm in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit in church by clergy is an act of unrighteousness or that it harmful?

That's a strawman argument. As I said, infant baptism is merely a rite of initiation, it doesn't save the infant from sin. It could be harmful, if baptism is perceived as a license to sin, you can do whatever you like with impunity just because you're baptized.

 

[Walpole]

All water baptisms are replications of John the Baptist's work, Jesus was baptized by him, but Jesus never baptized anybody in water, he baptizes with the holy spirit and fire, as John foretold.

You are conflating John's baptism with Christian baptism. John's baptism was not a sacrament and it did not confer grace nor imprint a character. This is why the Apostles administered Christian baptism to those who had been baptized by John. (See Acts 19:1-5)

John’s baptism, St. Paul explained, was simply a “baptism of repentance, telling people to believe in the One who was to come after Him, that is, Jesus” (Acts 19:4). But Christian baptism is much more. Through it, we are buried with Christ in His death, and raised with Him to new life (Romans 6:1–5). Christian baptism cleanses us of both original sin and actual sin committed up to that point (Acts 2:3, 38–39; 22:16). It causes us to be “born again” into the family of God (John 3:3–5; Galatians 3:27). It incorporates us into Christ as members of His body, initiating us into life in Christ and His Church (1 Corinthians 12:13). It restores to us the supernatural life of God and infuses in us the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

All this comes about through the action of the Holy Spirit—divine activity that was absent in John’s baptism. St. John himself declared: “I have baptized you with water; but He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” (Mark 1:8). The men in Ephesus whom St. Paul encountered, who had received John’s baptism, had never even heard that there was a Holy Spirit. But when they received Christian baptism, “the Holy Spirit came on them” (Acts 19:2, 6). When we were baptized, the Spirit came upon us as well, with life-giving consequences.


Our Blessed Lord said you MUST be born of the water and the Spirit. Christians call this baptism. Just like at Jesus' baptism, where He went into the water and the Spirit came upon Him, so too is what happens in Christian baptism.

As for whether Jesus ever baptized people, right after He tells us we must be born again of the water and the Spirit, St. John records this...


"After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized." - John 3:22

 

[Walpole]

Baptism is an initiation ritual of your induction into a church community, a public declaration of your faith in Christ. As you said, if you don't believe in Christ in the first place, you just join the church for tradition or worldly benefits, then baptism is meaningless and useless. I made the analogy of wedding ceremony, a public declaration - and celebration - of your union with your spouse. But does it mark the beginning of your marriage? Actually, no. What does? In modern time, marriage license; in ancient time, betrothal.

See the example below, the Samaritans were baptized, but not born again until they received the holy spirit from the apostles.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:14-17)

I have asked this and no one has yet been able to provide an answer.

Can you provide me an example of a "dry baptism", that is, one done without water?

 

[Walpole]

why would you baptize an infant?

We baptize our children because man is born with a deprivation: the lack of grace due to the fall of Adam. Baptism gives man "newness of life." (Romans 6:4) For thus he must be born again.

It is thus the responsibility of Christian parents to bring up their children in the faith. The faith of the Church is the child's birthright which is claimed for them by their Christian parents. Do you force your children to live outside of your house until they are old enough to profess membership in your household? I would hope not. So too parents do not exclude their children from the household of God.

“Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.’” (Mt. 19:14)

Christianity 101.

It would do nothing for them but get them wet.

This is so funny. You have spent the past couple of days arguing baptism has nothing to do with water. Now you implicitly admit it. Classic!

 

[Eternally-grateful]

We baptize our children because man is born with a deprivation: the lack of grace due to the fall of Adam. Baptism gives man "newness of life." (Romans 6:4) For thus he must be born again.

A baby can not be born again
Romans 6 for is not water baptism, it does not say baptize in water in christ. it says baptize (immerse) in christ.

Man is born with grace, the fact they are born at all is but by the grace of God. the fact mankind still is walking this earth is but by Gods grace. if we got what we deserve no one would be walking here

It is thus the responsibility of Christian parents to bring up their children in the faith. The faith of the Church is the child's birthright which is claimed for them by their Christian parents. Do you force your children to live outside of your house until they are old enough to profess membership in your household? I would hope not. So too parents do not exclude their children from the household of God.

I can not bring my kids to salvation. they must chose themselves when they get older.

john 1: 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

“Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.’” (Mt. 19:14)

Christianity 101.

Amen, I agree. but baptizing an infant is not going to help them.. It may help us as parents (its why IO had mine sprinkled) but the child it will not help at all

This is so funny. You have spent the past couple of days arguing baptism has nothing to do with water. Now you implicitly admit it. Classic!

No.. Please. I did not say it had nothing to do with water. i said it is not always in water.

But hey, if you want to help support me, keep making up things like this

 

[Walpole]

A baby can not be born again
Romans 6 for is not water baptism, it does not say baptize in water in christ. it says baptize (immerse) in christ.

Man is born with grace, the fact they are born at all is but by the grace of God. the fact mankind still is walking this earth is but by Gods grace. if we got what we deserve no one would be walking here

I can not bring my kids to salvation. they must chose themselves when they get older.

john 1: 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Amen, I agree. but baptizing an infant is not going to help them.. It may help us as parents (its why IO had mine sprinkled) but the child it will not help at all

No.. Please. I did not say it had nothing to do with water. i said it is not always in water.

But hey, if you want to help support me, keep making up things like this

Please give me an example where someone is baptized in Christ sans water.

At the end of St. Matthew's gospel, our Lord gives the Apostles instructions. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 28:19)

Can you give me an example where this ritual of being baptized according to Jesus' instruction is done WITHOUT WATER?

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Please give me an example where someone is baptized in Christ sans water.

Acts 10:

do you know what the word baptize means in the greek? it does not always mean water

At the end of St. Matthew's gospel, our Lord gives the Apostles instructions. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 28:19)

Yep. Make disciples..

then what do we do after they are saved? Baptize them.

Can you give me an example where this ritual of being baptized according to Jesus' instruction is done WITHOUT WATER?

The ritual is done in water

the act of God baptizing us into christ is done by the hand of God. no water is involved

can you tell be how abraham, and daniel and all the OT saints were saved if they were not baptized in water?

 

[donadams]

Yes, You love to change the eternal word to suit your pet doctrines

Peter told everyone to repent, and they would recieve the gift of the spirit

He then told those who repented. to be baptized on the account they recieved remission of sin.

and we see afterword. those who believed where baptized.

Since we are born again by faith (john 1, john 3, john 4, john 5, john 6 etc etc etc.) it fits with the rest of scripture

those who repented came to faith. and recieved the gift of the spirit

then they were baptized in obedience to Gods command, out of gratitude they recieved remission of sin.

Thats what causes us to do the works of God.. We trust him, in water baptism, in communion, in giving, in serving, in loving

as i said baptism is meaningless

 

[donadams]

Acts 17:11
10 hen the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.

This is what happens when you put yourself under men, who tell you to listen to them only.

The bereans did not say that so how are they wrong?

paul said. it. so I guess than apostle paul was wrong?

One thing is for sure. you just proved not only did you not search the scripture. you also show you do not know it.

how did they search the scriptures? where did they get access and permission?
how long did it take?
they scriptures were very limited and only available at the synagogue and there were no chapters or verses!

 

[Eternally-grateful]

as i said baptism is meaningless

I guess by this definition. so is giving to the church. so is not forsaking of yourself in gathering together. So is praying without ceasing, So is every other command given to us in scripture

I mean if one command is meaningless. I guess they all are.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

how did they search the scriptures? where did they get access and permission?
how long did it take?
they scriptures were very limited and only available at the synagogue and there were no chapters or verses!

Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

so let me get this straight. are you calling the author of acts a liar?

 

[donadams]

I guess by this definition. so is giving to the church. so is not forsaking of yourself in gathering together. So is praying without ceasing, So is every other command given to us in scripture

I mean if one command is meaningless. I guess they all are.

commands are required for salvation?

including deut 6:5?

what happened to faith alone?

 

[donadams]

Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

so let me get this straight. are you calling the author of acts a liar?

no just pointing out that they believed Paul as an apostle and that it was very difficult to search the scriptures and it probably took months, and they needed as we do the permission of the existing authority to do so!

it was not till the 20th and mass production methods that bibles became inexpensive and available in every home and most people were illiterate until the 20th century as well

 

[Johann!@#]

commands are required for salvation?

including deut 6:5?

what happened to faith alone?

Are we lawless? No need for the Imperatives of Christ and the Spirit?

Johann.

 

[Johann!@#]

no just pointing out that they believed Paul as an apostle and that it was very difficult to search the scriptures and it probably took months, and they needed as we do the permission of the existing authority to do so!

it was not till the 20th and mass production methods that bibles became inexpensive and available in every home and most people were illiterate until the 20th century as well

Incorrect.

Text and Context:
Acts 17:11 states:
"Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so."

Scriptures (τας γραφάς - tas graphas): The Greek term here refers specifically to the sacred writings already recognized as authoritative by the Jewish community.

What Were the Scriptures at That Time?
The Law (Torah): Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

The Prophets (Nevi’im): Historical books (like Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings) and prophetic books (like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve Minor Prophets).

The Writings (Ketuvim): Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, Chronicles.

Evidence of Their Use--
Paul’s custom was to reason from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2-3), primarily the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, commonly used in the Diaspora.

Specific passages Paul likely referenced include Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Genesis 22 (the sacrifice of Isaac), and Deuteronomy 18:15 (the Prophet like Moses).

Paul also drew from passages that foretold the Messiah’s suffering and resurrection (e.g., Psalm 16:10, Isaiah 53:10-12).

Why the Bereans Searched the Scriptures--

The Bereans wanted to see if Paul’s claim that Jesus is the Christ aligned with the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. Since the New Testament was not yet compiled, they relied entirely on the existing Hebrew Scriptures to confirm the teachings.

Thus, the Bereans exemplified a noble approach by cross-referencing Paul’s message with the already established canon of the Hebrew Bible.

Shalom.

J.