[__ Science __ ] Old Earth vs. Young Earth

[Elijah7777]

Two men dislodged this iron cup in a large chunk of coal which has an assigned age of 300 million years.

A coal minor left a cup behind. So what? His wife was maybe upset that they had to buy a new cup. People with high paying jobs tend to leave a lot of garbage behind because they have money to buy stuff. People get upset with me that I do not throw more junk in the garbage to clean up my mess a little bit better.

 

[hawkman]

A coal minor left a cup behind. So what?

That handcrafted cast iron cup used by a coal miner ? I find that highly doubtful , here is the kind of cup a coal miner would have in his lunch pail .

 

[hawkman]

Since all people commonly lie or are otherwise fallible in this regard, scientifically, anecdotal evidence is not worth much. One might ask why would these men would make up such a story. There might be any number of other reasons-------
1. for a gag,
2. attention,
3. an effort to validate something they believe in etc.

Doubts , I understand that .

Cannt miss something you were never looking for!

Sigh .
Here is the QUESTION for you . I only want your opinion unless you have fact to share that is .

Did God tell us He created the Dinosaurs when He told us of creation In Gen 1 , in your opinion ?

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

In the Bible, shadows and types are symbolic representations that point to deeper spiritual truths. They are often found in the Old Testament and foreshadow events, people, or concepts fulfilled in the New Testament. Here are some key examples: allegory metaphore archetype homieties, symbolic, paradigm parrables allusions.

yes

But genesis is a narrative. Moses is telling us things that literally happened. It should be read as if your reading a history book. Not as your reading a book of poetry or fiction

 

[Elijah7777]

yes

But genesis is a narrative. Moses is telling us things that literally happened. It should be read as if your reading a history book. Not as your reading a book of poetry or fiction

The Bible is first, ,foremost and always literal. The symbolic Bible is symbolic. But the Hasidic say that the Bible has up to 100 layers of meaning. A lot of the Bible was oral tradition that was recorded much later. Even though some people feel that Moses copied the Bible from Clay tablets.

We teach our sunday school student the literal Bible. The do not learn about the symbolism until they are old enough to lister to the pastor. We start off teaching them about Jericho. You can see that teaching on YouTube. They have to be old enough to march as they sing the song to begin the program.

 

[Rodger]

Doubts , I understand that .

Sigh .
Here is the QUESTION for you . I only want your opinion unless you have fact to share that is .

Did God tell us He created the Dinosaurs when He told us of creation In Gen 1 , in your opinion ?

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Doubts? NO doubts but proven fraud by many over the years.

NO. Just as there is NO Bible evidence of how old the Earth is, there is NO Bible record of dinosaurs.

I totally understand the need for those who believe that the earth if 6000 years old to "force" the meaning of the "Leviathan and Behemoth" in Job to be a reference to dinosaurs. They have to do that.

With just a little work we can easily find out that The Hebrew word for Behemoth means “beasts.”
Beginning in Job 40:15---The Bible tells us that the beast eats grass or vegetation or is an herbivorous animal (v. 15).

Now that creates another problem for Young Earthers. The fossil found in great numbers have been "Carnivorous Teeth" for ripping flesh and NOT for grazing that is described in verse 15.

To continue the Bible description in Job 40.....Now we are told that this Beast/Behemoth feeds on the mountains (v. 20).

So then, If we combine the fact that he eats grass, we are to understand that he eats vegetation that is found on the mountains.

Then in Verses 21-22 says he is under the lotus plants. That is, he is a water animal who lives in the water and marshes.

Next, we are told he is at home in the rivers (v. 23). So, the Beast/Behemoth seems to be an animal that is comfortable in the water and on the land and eats grass in both places.

The last verse reveals that he is very difficult to capture.
It has been shown that the lotus plant is of the species Ziziphus lotus. This tree grew in the “swampy area thick with reeds or on the bank, concealed by lotuses and poplars.” (1) The height of these trees is about 5 feet. This helps us to understand that the dinosaurs could not fit under the lotus plants described in verses 21-22. That is, the brontosaurus was 28 feet, diplodocus was 16 ft and the apatosaurus was at least 30 ft.

Why Am I posting this. To answer your question. So what we have here then is that the sauropod, considered the tallest of the dinosaurs, are all eliminated as being the behemoth.
(1) John Hartley. The Book of Job. The New International Commentary on the Old Testament. Eerdmans Publishing. 1988. p. 526.

Most biblical scholars agree that Behemoth is a hippopotamus.

The question is NOT were there dino's, but when were there dino's.

I really do not have any answers my dear friend. All I understand is that the fossils of dino's show us that they existed. Now.....I have not been able to grasp the Young Earth theory of those dino's living along side of Adam and Eve for 2000 years and then going extinct because of the flood.

Again, there is NO Bible evidence of them living with Adam and Eve.

 

[Rodger]

The Bible is first, ,foremost and always literal. The symbolic Bible is symbolic. But the Hasidic say that the Bible has up to 100 layers of meaning. A lot of the Bible was oral tradition that was recorded much later. Even though some people feel that Moses copied the Bible from Clay tablets.

We teach our sunday school student the literal Bible. The do not learn about the symbolism until they are old enough to lister to the pastor. We start off teaching them about Jericho. You can see that teaching on YouTube. They have to be old enough to march as they sing the song to begin the program.

I agree that the 1st option is the Literal meaning.

However, the symbolic interpretation must be considered a a figure of speech is can mean different things.

An example of a figure of speech would be that if someone said "it is raining cats and dogs outside," you would know that they did not really mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky or would you if you take that to mean literal cats and dogs?

Absurd some would say! Really? Consider this thread for as an example. Some read Job 40 and convince themselves that Job is describing dinosaurs when he obviously is not. But....they want those Scriptures to say Dino's so we make them say what we want them to say.

There are figures of speech in the Bible which are not to be taken literally.

 

[hawkman]

Doubts? NO doubts but proven fraud by many over the years.

NO. Just as there is NO Bible evidence of how old the Earth is, there is NO Bible record of dinosaurs.

I totally understand the need for those who believe that the earth if 6000 years old to "force" the meaning of the "Leviathan and Behemoth" in Job to be a reference to dinosaurs. They have to do that.

With just a little work we can easily find out that The Hebrew word for Behemoth means “beasts.”
Beginning in Job 40:15---The Bible tells us that the beast eats grass or vegetation or is an herbivorous animal (v. 15).

Now that creates another problem for Young Earthers. The fossil found in great numbers have been "Carnivorous Teeth" for ripping flesh and NOT for grazing that is described in verse 15.

To continue the Bible description in Job 40.....Now we are told that this Beast/Behemoth feeds on the mountains (v. 20).

So then, If we combine the fact that he eats grass, we are to understand that he eats vegetation that is found on the mountains.

Then in Verses 21-22 says he is under the lotus plants. That is, he is a water animal who lives in the water and marshes.

Next, we are told he is at home in the rivers (v. 23). So, the Beast/Behemoth seems to be an animal that is comfortable in the water and on the land and eats grass in both places.

The last verse reveals that he is very difficult to capture.
It has been shown that the lotus plant is of the species Ziziphus lotus. This tree grew in the “swampy area thick with reeds or on the bank, concealed by lotuses and poplars.” (1) The height of these trees is about 5 feet. This helps us to understand that the dinosaurs could not fit under the lotus plants described in verses 21-22. That is, the brontosaurus was 28 feet, diplodocus was 16 ft and the apatosaurus was at least 30 ft.

Why Am I posting this. To answer your question. So what we have here then is that the sauropod, considered the tallest of the dinosaurs, are all eliminated as being the behemoth.
(1) John Hartley. The Book of Job. The New International Commentary on the Old Testament. Eerdmans Publishing. 1988. p. 526.

Most biblical scholars agree that Behemoth is a hippopotamus.

The question is NOT were there dino's, but when were there dino's.

I really do not have any answers my dear friend. All I understand is that the fossils of dino's show us that they existed. Now.....I have not been able to grasp the Young Earth theory of those dino's living along side of Adam and Eve for 2000 years and then going extinct because of the flood.

Again, there is NO Bible evidence of them living with Adam and Eve.

It was a question with a yes or no answer and maybe you said NO .

 

[Elijah7777]

Some read Job 40 and convince themselves that Job is describing dinosaurs when he obviously is not.

"Many people struggle to understand Noah's flood and how it relates to the floods that wiped out the dinosaurs. Even 50+ years ago, when I was in grade school, continental drift was just an unproven theory. Today, plate tectonics are widely accepted and largely uncontested."

 

[daddd]

Actually you have to become as a child. I think that means a mature child. There was a program on TV are you as smart as a fifth grader. A lot of people can not function at a fifth grade level. For me my pre school readiness test would require them to know the Hebrew Alphabet and what the letters represent. Today school superintendents would flunk my test for kindergarten students.

Matthew 18:3 Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Little has to do with their steps. They have to put out more effort to keep up with the adults. But sometimes they have so much energy they can run circles around the adults.

Believing God is not about being smart. Quite the contrary. Being smart in the eyes of man means you are dumb as a nail in God's eyes if you oppose what He said. The reason a small child would be wiser than a thousand PHD origin so called science adult scientists is because God was right all along, and science made stuff up based on evil inspiration and a foundational premises

 

[Elijah7777]

Believing God is not about being smart.

Sorry, you missed the point. I was talking about being mature. We see this in nature. A mature tree produces fruit. Jesus talks about how like a tree we need to produce fruit. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfullness, Gentleness and Self Control. Galatians 5:22-23 If a branch does not produce fruit, they are thrown into the fire.

John 15:6, where He says: "If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned."

 

[daddd]

Sorry, you missed the point. I was talking about being mature.

If we were spiritual mature we would not believe lies of the enemy, that are transparently opposing His word. So called science dealing in origins is spiritual as well. Just on the other side

We see this in nature. A mature tree produces fruit. Jesus talks about how like a tree we need to produce fruit. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfullness, Gentleness and Self Control. Galatians 5:22-23 If a branch does not produce fruit, they are thrown into the fire.

John 15:6, where He says: "If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned."

Being mature involves more belief not none at all.

 

[Rodger]

"Many people struggle to understand Noah's flood and how it relates to the floods that wiped out the dinosaurs. Even 50+ years ago, when I was in grade school, continental drift was just an unproven theory. Today, plate tectonics are widely accepted and largely uncontested."

I agree.

To that fact we could add thousands of things that we now know to be true.

It was only about 500 years ago that Galileo was prosecuted for holding as true the doctrine of the astronomical model in which the Earth and planets revolve around the Sun at the center. He was excommunicated from the RCC.

 

[Rodger]

It was a question with a yes or no answer and maybe you said NO .

There are very few yes or no answers my friend.

If we were spiritual mature we would not believe lies of the enemy, that are transparently opposing His word. So called science dealing in origins is spiritual as well. Just on the other side

Being mature involves more belief not none at all.

IMHO.....it is patentally incorrect to label something as Dinosaurs living before Adam and Eve as "lies of the enemy".

Being "Biblically mature" means that the key to maturity is consistency, perseverance in doing those things we know will bring us closer to God. These practices are referred to as the spiritual disciplines and include things such as Bible reading/study, prayer, fellowship, service, and stewardship.

 

[Rodger]

It was a question with a yes or no answer and maybe you said NO .

In post #206 I said...........
"NO doubts but proven fraud by many over the years.

NO. Just as there is NO Bible evidence of how old the Earth is, there is NO Bible record of dinosaurs."

Sorry you missed it.

 

[miamited]

Nor do we know exactly when Adam and Eve sinned.

I believe that can be pretty easily figured out as to an 'area' of time. It would not appear that they had any children before the sin. The account tells us that God created Adam and He created all the animals for Adam to name them and then, because none of these were suitable for Adam's mate/helper, He made Eve to be Adam's wife and mate.

Then the very next words are that the serpent began to beguile Eve. That he convinced her that she wouldn't die from eating the fruit but would instead become wiser and more knowledgeable. Knowing good AND evil. Even being more like God! Then we are given the account of Eve having her first child. Eve gave glory to the Lord concerning the child and marveled that she had given birth to a man.

However, God had given them the command to be fruitful and multiply very early on in their existence. I would conclude that the fall then happened between their creation and the birth of the first child. I also believe that when God created the sun, years began to pass. Days are based on the movement of the earth on its axis. Years are based on the movement of the earth around the sun. So, when the Scriptures tell me that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born, now the third child that we know of, I believe that the fall had to have happened within 100 years. That would be allowing that Cain and Abel both be born and grow into men where one would take the other's life. Then for Seth to be born after Abel's death. I do not believe that there is any kind of proof gleaned from the Scriptures that would allow that the time Adam and Eve lived in the garden before sin was of some age of different time keeping units. The sun had been created before Adam and the earth would have been making its journeys around the sun from before Adam's creation. Although it would have only journeyed the distance of three days' time around the sun during that interval. But from the creation of the sun, there's no reason to believe that the earth didn't immediately begin counting years just as we count years today. We know that Cain and Abel and Seth were all born after the fall. We don't know how old Cain and Abel were when Abel was killed, but surely, they were adult men.

Finally, knowing the nature of man, we fall off course pretty fast when it comes to the things of God. So, here we have God creating and pretty much immediately, Satan, goes down to try and mess things up. So, Eve eats the fruit and gives some to her husband. And they immediately become ashamed of their nakedness. While my explanation allows that it could have been within 100 years, I'm actually pretty confident that it may well have been within the first few years.

 

[daddd]

There are very few yes or no answers my friend.

IMHO.....it is patentally incorrect to label something as Dinosaurs living before Adam and Eve as "lies of the enemy".

No it is 100% accurate. The dating systems and assumptions on what fossils are all about are wrong o wrong. Period. For example, probably MOST life could not leave fossil remains at all back in the pre flood era. Therefore, if true, that would mean that man was here and other creatures, but for various reasons they would not show up in the fossil record. Then there are the religious faith based dream dates they use. 100% belief based.

Being "Biblically mature" means that the key to maturity is consistency, perseverance in doing those things we know will bring us closer to God. These practices are referred to as the spiritual disciplines and include things such as Bible reading/study, prayer, fellowship, service, and stewardship.

Being mature in life is not just 'biblically' mature.

 

[daddd]

I believe that can be pretty easily figured out as to an 'area' of time. It would not appear that they had any children before the sin.

That's a guess

The account tells us that God created Adam and He created all the animals for Adam to name them and then, because none of these were suitable for Adam's mate/helper, He made Eve to be Adam's wife and mate.

Then the very next words are that the serpent began to beguile Eve. That he convinced her that she wouldn't die from eating the fruit but would instead become wiser and more knowledgeable. Knowing good AND evil. Even being more like God! Then we are given the account of Eve having her first child. Eve gave glory to the Lord concerning the child and marveled that she had given birth to a man.

We do not know how long it was before she ate the fruit. Was it the same day she was made? 4 years later? We are not told. Since they were commanded to have babies, if there was any time involved at all there would be plenty of children

However, God had given them the command to be fruitful and multiply very early on in their existence. I would conclude that the fall then happened between their creation and the birth of the first child.

It did not mention she was pregnant when she ate the fruit. There is not enough to go on to know the time involved.

I also believe that when God created the sun, years began to pass. Days are based on the movement of the earth on its axis. Years are based on the movement of the earth around the sun. So, when the Scriptures tell me that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born, now the third child that we know of, I believe that the fall had to have happened within 100 years.

That makes sense. However how would we know there was not another 100 years involved before Adam and Eve fell? Now if the gestation period was three months at the time (rather than 9) who really knows? That would mean a lot of babies in 100 years! Both to Eve and her daughters and sons. Just because Seth is mentioned after the fall does not mean there were not kids from before also, does it? That would explain why Cain was sent to a city.

That would be allowing that Cain and Abel both be born and grow into men where one would take the other's life. Then for Seth to be born after Abel's death. I do not believe that there is any kind of proof gleaned from the Scriptures that would allow that the time Adam and Eve lived in the garden before sin was of some age of different time keeping units.

No. Days were the same

The sun had been created before Adam and the earth would have been making its journeys around the sun from before Adam's creation. Although it would have only journeyed the distance of three days' time around the sun during that interval. But from the creation of the sun, there's no reason to believe that the earth didn't immediately begin counting years just as we count years today.

The days and years were counted already before the sun was created. Since it was only a few days after the world was created, no years were yet relevant to when the sun was made. There is NO indication that days changed when the sun came along, before or after.

We know that Cain and Abel and Seth were all born after the fall. We don't know how old Cain and Abel were when Abel was killed, but surely, they were adult men.

What does it matter?

Finally, knowing the nature of man, we fall off course pretty fast when it comes to the things of God. So, here we have God creating and pretty much immediately, Satan, goes down to try and mess things up. So, Eve eats the fruit and gives some to her husband. And they immediately become ashamed of their nakedness. While my explanation allows that it could have been within 100 years, I'm actually pretty confident that it may well have been within the first few years.

So you seem to be saying that the fall could have been as much as 100 years.

 

[Elijah7777]

He was excommunicated from the RCC.

I am a descendant of Bloody Mary first Myrter. Rogers is believed to have rejoiced that he was counted worthy to suffer for his faith. His execution was seen as a powerful testimony, and historical accounts suggest that he went to his death with courage and conviction.

 

[Rodger]

I am a descendant of Bloody Mary first Myrter. Rogers is believed to have rejoiced that he was counted worthy to suffer for his faith. His execution was seen as a powerful testimony, and historical accounts suggest that he went to his death with courage and conviction.

Now there is a name I have not heard in a long time.....John Rogers.

I believe that he was a close friend to Tyndale and he (Tyndale) converted him from the Catholic church to the Protestant faith.