The Trinity

[Johann!@#]

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him

• Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

How do we know the Angel of the Lord is Jesus? | Verse By Verse Ministry International

Delve into a detailed analysis exploring how the Angel of the Lord in biblical scripture represents the pre-incarnate Christ. Discover evidence from Genesis and beyond confirming Jesus' divine role before His earthly incarnation.

versebyverseministry.org

#:~:text=How%20do%20we%20know%20the%20Angel%20of%20the%20Lord%20is%20Jesus%3F

Who Is the Angel of the Lord?

Who is the Angel of the Lord? Flip through the pages of the Hebrew Scriptures and you’ll come across a figure who seems to carry a contradiction: the Angel of the Lord. So who is the Angel of the Lord, and what connection does he have to Yahweh?

bibleproject.com

Who Is the Angel of the Lord and What Is the Name of Yahweh?

Dr. Michael Heiser pieces together what we know about the name of Yahweh, focusing on the relationship between Yahweh and the angel of the Lord.

www.logos.com

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

Rather, "I am he".

Kind regards
Trevor

You’re arguing that Jesus merely identified Himself with a simple “I am he,” implying nothing more than self-identification. But that interpretation fails to account for the Greek grammar and historical context of John 8:58 and other absolute “I AM” statements in John’s Gospel.

Jesus says, ἐγώ εἰμι, not with a predicate (like “I am the shepherd”) but absolutely--“Before Abraham was, I am.” The verb used for Abraham’s coming into being is γενέσθαι (aorist infinitive of γίνομαι, “to come into existence”), while Jesus uses εἰμί (present indicative), signifying continuous, timeless existence.

He does not say, “I was” (ἤμην), which would be expected if He were merely making a chronological claim. Instead, He says “I AM”--mirroring the divine declaration in the LXX of Exodus 3:14, ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (“I am the one who is”).

This is not an interpretive stretch. Even the Jewish audience immediately recognized the claim: they picked up stones to stone Him (John 8:59). Why? Because they rightly understood this as a claim to divinity-a direct identification with the eternal name of YHWH.

The grammar confirms this. ἐγώ is an emphatic personal pronoun. Greek verbs already contain the subject in their endings, so using ἐγώ with εἰμι is a way to stress self-identification in a unique, authoritative sense. This is not the ordinary “I am he” of everyday language. It is a theological declaration, and it occurs multiple times throughout John (e.g., 6:20, 8:24, 13:19, 18:5–6). In John 18, the soldiers physically fall back when Jesus says ἐγώ εἰμι--hardly the reaction to someone simply saying “I’m your guy.”

You’re free to argue that Jesus was misunderstood, but the burden of proof is on you to explain why John’s Greek grammar, Old Testament allusion, Jewish reaction, and Johannine theology all converge to say otherwise.

Shalom.

J.

 

[Randy]

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him

• Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Exodus 3:13-14

• Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

One would assume God's Holy Spirit was there as well for it was holy ground. The angel was standing in the presence of God. God was speaking by His Spirit.

Jesus was alive "before" Abraham and was an eyewitness of Abraham.. Moses asked for a name. Not the same context.
You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB and Johann,

The scriptures teach us Moses was looking at God.

The Hebrew word "Elohim" is sometimes used for Angels.

Instead, He says “I AM”--mirroring the divine declaration in the LXX of Exodus 3:14, ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (“I am the one who is”)

Tyndale translates Exodus 3:14 as "I wilbe what I wilbe".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Randy,

Jesus was alive "before" Abraham and was an eyewitness of Abraham.. Moses asked for a name. Not the same context.
You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”

John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

The Hebrew word "Elohim" is sometimes used for Angels.

Also “gods”; demons.

So the context should dictate the meaning, especially when contextually linked with LORD (YHWH). Also the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him
• So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look,
• God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Contextually unmistakably.


So do you believe Moses was looking at God the Father or the Son?

 

[JLB]

One would assume God's Holy Spirit was there as well for it was holy ground. The angel was standing in the presence of God. God was speaking by His Spirit.

Jesus was alive "before" Abraham and was an eyewitness of Abraham.. Moses asked for a name. Not the same context.
You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”

What we know for sure is Moses was looking at God.

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

[Free]

None of your numerous suggestions matched my perspective.

Yes, I know--that is precisely my point. I'm not trying to repeat your perspective, I'm showing the issues with it. You have your perspective, but it leads to what I have given; you just can't see that it does. You're sticking to your perspective in the face of evidence that shows it is highly problematic--it doesn't make sense of the context and has Jesus speaking nonsense.

Jesus was greater than Abraham because Jesus was the seed of promise and the central focus of Abraham's salvation as depicted in Genesis 22, events that were being outworked then, in Jesus' day, during his ministry. He was also before Abraham as he was also the seed of the woman of Genesis 3:15 and he was in the plan and purpose of God before the creation.

You're not taking the plain meaning of the text. John the Baptist simply states that Jesus is "He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me" (John 1:15, ESV). Notice that John includes this in the prologue, the whole point of which is to show just who Jesus is--true deity and true humanity in one person. There is absolutely nothing in John the Baptists comment to even imply that he is meaning that "Jesus was the see of the promise." The context is clearly to show that John the Baptist meant that Jesus (as the Son) literally existed prior to himself.

I recently encountered comments on the thesis of Walter Bauer concerning his book Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity.

Okay... How does this address my comment?

Yes, I have chosen a side.

You have, but it doesn't line up with Scripture.

Luke 1:34-35 teaches me that he is the Son of God by birth, not incarnation of God the Son.

That's because you continue to ignore much context, much of which I have given. Also, just because it will be known to humans that Jesus was to be called the Son of God, it does not follow that he was not the Son of God prior to the incarnation.

How could the Son not have pre-existed if John says in John 1:1-3, 10 that he helped create the world (meaning everything that was created)?

How could the Son not have pre-existed when Jesus says many times that he came from heaven and existed prior to his being born as a human?

How could the Son not have pre-existed if Paul says that all things came into being through him, in both 1 Cor. 8:6 and Col. 1:16-17?

How could the Son not have pre-existed when we are told "he was in the form of God . . . but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men"?

How could the Father say that the Son created all things as Yahweh, in Heb. 1:10-12, if the Son never existed prior to his incarnation?

All of these passages (and others) can only mean that the Son pre-existed eternally with the Father. There is simply no other reasonable conclusion.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Yes, I know--that is precisely my point.

I am prepared to leave any further comment on John 8:58 except to repeat
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Tyndale translates Exodus 3:14 as "I wilbe what I wilbe".

"He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me" (John 1:15, ESV).

Similar to Abraham in John 8:58 Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God before John the Baptist.

Okay... How does this address my comment?

Perhaps very second hand, but I listened to a discussion on Walter Bauer's thesis. My deduction was that he suggested that the early development was represented in many areas and that this was represented by many independent groups, with a variety of understanding on some issues. Each group would have their inherited manuscripts with possible some variations. As the Apostate Catholic Church developed and consolidated many of these other small groups were considered heretical and were then suppressed and persecuted. The manuscripts that were altered by the corrupt church were maintained and some of the correct manuscripts held by these persecuted groups were suppressed. This helps to understand the two versions of John 1:18.

That's because you continue to ignore much context, much of which I have given. Also, just because it will be known to humans that Jesus was to be called the Son of God, it does not follow that he was not the Son of God prior to the incarnation.

I will hold on to my view of Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35, conception not incarnation.

There is simply no other reasonable conclusion.

I will not venture into the full range of supposed Trinitarian references. We have repeated our perspectives on a few basic references numerous times. I consider my foundation beliefs and references are very secure. I appreciate your time, effort and patience.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

What we know for sure is Moses was looking at God.

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jacob said He saw God but Hosea stated it was an Angel.
The presence of God was there in regard to Moses via His Spirit. Don't you state God the Spirit? The Angel was standing in the presence of God.

No man may see Gods face and live yet:
So Jacob called the place Peniel, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Hosea in regard to Jacob
He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there—

Angel -Standing in the presence of God
Gabriel to Zachariah
The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to...

 

[Randy]

Greetings Randy,

John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Kind regards
Trevor

But that's not the context of the sarcasm of those who couldn't believe in the truth which Jesus specifically replied to.
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

"“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “BEFORE Abraham was born, I AM!”

John 6:62
Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
Jesus is not from the earth rather He is from above.
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.

I assume you are a biblical unitarian or hold to their belief that Jesus is a glorified Man rather than the eternal life who was with the Father in the beginning. That very life appeared in flesh and is the one the Apostles saw, touched and heard and testify about.
Jesus is the only eyewitness of God as one who came from being in the Fathers presence and has appeared in flesh as an eyewitness of His majesty and testifies to what He saw and heard as one who came from heaven. (above)

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

I don't expect you to agree in the preexistence of the life of the Son before the world began so we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[JLB]

Jacob said He saw God but Hosea stated it was an Angel.
The presence of God was there in regard to Moses via His Spirit. Don't you state God the Spirit? The Angel was standing in the presence of God.

No man may see Gods face and live yet:
So Jacob called the place Peniel, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Hosea in regard to Jacob
He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there—

Angel -Standing in the presence of God
Gabriel to Zachariah
The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to...

So we see that the Angel of the Lord is God.

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”, And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:17-18, 22


Not the God the Father but God the Son.


Angels are messengers. They bring a message (word) from God the Father.
The Angel of the LORD is the Word (message) of God.

Angels are called sons of God.
The Angel of the LORD is the Son of God.

Angels are spirits.
The Angel of the LORD is the Spirit of the LORD.


Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17

 

[Randy]

So we see that the Angel of the Lord is God.

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”, And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:17-18, 22


Not the God the Father but God the Son.


Angels are messengers. They bring a message (word) from God the Father.
The Angel of the LORD is the Word (message) of God.

Angels are called sons of God.
The Angel of the LORD is the Son of God.

Angels are spirits.
The Angel of the LORD is the Spirit of the LORD.


Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17

Actually, one could state we are all Gods.
Psalm 82:6

The Angel of the Lord are not Deity.
The Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the sovereign Lord is Deity.

Gods Deity was at the burning bush. God's Angel was at the burn bush. I see no reason to assign the presence of the Son at that meeting.

 

[JLB]

The Angel of the Lord are not Deity.

I see what Randy says.


Here is what scripture says -

• And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

• And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
• Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
  Then they took up stones to throw at Him;

It seems the Jews understood what Jesus was saying about Himself.


Do you believe the truth?

 

[Fish153]

Greetngs again JLB, Fish153, Free and Johann,

No, the Angel of the LORD is an angel, possibly Michael the Archangel here.

I do not agree with the JW translation or their exposition here. I consider The Word in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the Wise Woman Wisdom in Proverbs 8.

None of your numerous suggestions matched my perspective. Jesus was greater than Abraham because Jesus was the seed of promise and the central focus of Abraham's salvation as depicted in Genesis 22, events that were being outworked then, in Jesus' day, during his ministry. He was also before Abraham as he was also the seed of the woman of Genesis 3:15 and he was in the plan and purpose of God before the creation.

I recently encountered comments on the thesis of Walter Bauer concerning his book Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity.

Yes, I have chosen a side.

Luke 1:34-35 teaches me that he is the Son of God by birth, not incarnation of God the Son.

Our major pioneer was called upon by a Jewish Trinitarian to address a crowd of Jews in New York in 1858 and the Trinitarian Jew was very upset when our pioneer expounded the subject that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father, He who will be. The substance of his address is now published as one of our foundation literature on this subject.

Rather, "I am he".

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor---

No---it is not a personification of the "Wise Woman". The Word is a REAL PERSON:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD". (Rev. 19:11-13).

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of THE WORD OF LIFE;

(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1: 1-3)

The Apostle John wrote both of these passages. The WORD is a person that John says he saw with his own eyes, and his hands handled. it was no "representation" as the Wise Woman is. This is an ACTUAL PERSON. And Scripture is VERY CLEAR about this.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetngs again Fish153,

No---it is not a personification of the "Wise Woman"

I did not say any such thing. What I said was the following.

I consider The Word in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the Wise Woman Wisdom in Proverbs 8.

The Word is a REAL PERSON

Yes, Jesus is The Word in John 1:14:
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

I see what Randy says.


Here is what scripture says -

• And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

• And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
• Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
  Then they took up stones to throw at Him;

It seems the Jews understood what Jesus was saying about Himself.


Do you believe the truth?

Yes,I believe God spoke to Moses. The same God that spoke to us in these last days by His Son.
Yes, I believe Jesus was living before Abraham was born and did see and know Abraham.

 

[JLB]

Yes,I believe God spoke to Moses. The same God that spoke to us in these last days by His Son.
Yes, I believe Jesus was living before Abraham was born and did see and know Abraham.

Ok.

Do you then believe Jesus is God or an Angel?

 

[Fish153]

Greetngs again Fish153,

I did not say any such thing. What I said was the following.



Yes, Jesus is The Word in John 1:14:
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor---

My apologies. I misread your post. It sounded like you were saying that THE WORD is not a person, but more of an "idea". Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Free]

Trevor---

My apologies. I misread your post. It sounded like you were saying that THE WORD is not a person, but more of an "idea". Thanks for clearing that up!

That actually is what he said. The Word is a personification and not a person, until "it" became incarnate in the person of Jesus. Of course, maybe you were just being sarcastic...