The Trinity

[Johann!@#]

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him

• Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

How do we know the Angel of the Lord is Jesus? | Verse By Verse Ministry International

Delve into a detailed analysis exploring how the Angel of the Lord in biblical scripture represents the pre-incarnate Christ. Discover evidence from Genesis and beyond confirming Jesus' divine role before His earthly incarnation.

versebyverseministry.org

#:~:text=How%20do%20we%20know%20the%20Angel%20of%20the%20Lord%20is%20Jesus%3F

Who Is the Angel of the Lord?

Who is the Angel of the Lord? Flip through the pages of the Hebrew Scriptures and you’ll come across a figure who seems to carry a contradiction: the Angel of the Lord. So who is the Angel of the Lord, and what connection does he have to Yahweh?

bibleproject.com

Who Is the Angel of the Lord and What Is the Name of Yahweh?

Dr. Michael Heiser pieces together what we know about the name of Yahweh, focusing on the relationship between Yahweh and the angel of the Lord.

www.logos.com

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

Rather, "I am he".

Kind regards
Trevor

You’re arguing that Jesus merely identified Himself with a simple “I am he,” implying nothing more than self-identification. But that interpretation fails to account for the Greek grammar and historical context of John 8:58 and other absolute “I AM” statements in John’s Gospel.

Jesus says, ἐγώ εἰμι, not with a predicate (like “I am the shepherd”) but absolutely--“Before Abraham was, I am.” The verb used for Abraham’s coming into being is γενέσθαι (aorist infinitive of γίνομαι, “to come into existence”), while Jesus uses εἰμί (present indicative), signifying continuous, timeless existence.

He does not say, “I was” (ἤμην), which would be expected if He were merely making a chronological claim. Instead, He says “I AM”--mirroring the divine declaration in the LXX of Exodus 3:14, ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (“I am the one who is”).

This is not an interpretive stretch. Even the Jewish audience immediately recognized the claim: they picked up stones to stone Him (John 8:59). Why? Because they rightly understood this as a claim to divinity-a direct identification with the eternal name of YHWH.

The grammar confirms this. ἐγώ is an emphatic personal pronoun. Greek verbs already contain the subject in their endings, so using ἐγώ with εἰμι is a way to stress self-identification in a unique, authoritative sense. This is not the ordinary “I am he” of everyday language. It is a theological declaration, and it occurs multiple times throughout John (e.g., 6:20, 8:24, 13:19, 18:5–6). In John 18, the soldiers physically fall back when Jesus says ἐγώ εἰμι--hardly the reaction to someone simply saying “I’m your guy.”

You’re free to argue that Jesus was misunderstood, but the burden of proof is on you to explain why John’s Greek grammar, Old Testament allusion, Jewish reaction, and Johannine theology all converge to say otherwise.

Shalom.

J.

 

[Randy]

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him

• Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Exodus 3:13-14

• Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

One would assume God's Holy Spirit was there as well for it was holy ground. The angel was standing in the presence of God. God was speaking by His Spirit.

Jesus was alive "before" Abraham and was an eyewitness of Abraham.. Moses asked for a name. Not the same context.
You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB and Johann,

The scriptures teach us Moses was looking at God.

The Hebrew word "Elohim" is sometimes used for Angels.

Instead, He says “I AM”--mirroring the divine declaration in the LXX of Exodus 3:14, ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (“I am the one who is”)

Tyndale translates Exodus 3:14 as "I wilbe what I wilbe".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Randy,

Jesus was alive "before" Abraham and was an eyewitness of Abraham.. Moses asked for a name. Not the same context.
You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”

John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

The Hebrew word "Elohim" is sometimes used for Angels.

Also “gods”; demons.

So the context should dictate the meaning, especially when contextually linked with LORD (YHWH). Also the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him
• So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look,
• God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Contextually unmistakably.


So do you believe Moses was looking at God the Father or the Son?

 

[JLB]

One would assume God's Holy Spirit was there as well for it was holy ground. The angel was standing in the presence of God. God was speaking by His Spirit.

Jesus was alive "before" Abraham and was an eyewitness of Abraham.. Moses asked for a name. Not the same context.
You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”

What we know for sure is Moses was looking at God.

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

[Free]

None of your numerous suggestions matched my perspective.

Yes, I know--that is precisely my point. I'm not trying to repeat your perspective, I'm showing the issues with it. You have your perspective, but it leads to what I have given; you just can't see that it does. You're sticking to your perspective in the face of evidence that shows it is highly problematic--it doesn't make sense of the context and has Jesus speaking nonsense.

Jesus was greater than Abraham because Jesus was the seed of promise and the central focus of Abraham's salvation as depicted in Genesis 22, events that were being outworked then, in Jesus' day, during his ministry. He was also before Abraham as he was also the seed of the woman of Genesis 3:15 and he was in the plan and purpose of God before the creation.

You're not taking the plain meaning of the text. John the Baptist simply states that Jesus is "He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me" (John 1:15, ESV). Notice that John includes this in the prologue, the whole point of which is to show just who Jesus is--true deity and true humanity in one person. There is absolutely nothing in John the Baptists comment to even imply that he is meaning that "Jesus was the see of the promise." The context is clearly to show that John the Baptist meant that Jesus (as the Son) literally existed prior to himself.

I recently encountered comments on the thesis of Walter Bauer concerning his book Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity.

Okay... How does this address my comment?

Yes, I have chosen a side.

You have, but it doesn't line up with Scripture.

Luke 1:34-35 teaches me that he is the Son of God by birth, not incarnation of God the Son.

That's because you continue to ignore much context, much of which I have given. Also, just because it will be known to humans that Jesus was to be called the Son of God, it does not follow that he was not the Son of God prior to the incarnation.

How could the Son not have pre-existed if John says in John 1:1-3, 10 that he helped create the world (meaning everything that was created)?

How could the Son not have pre-existed when Jesus says many times that he came from heaven and existed prior to his being born as a human?

How could the Son not have pre-existed if Paul says that all things came into being through him, in both 1 Cor. 8:6 and Col. 1:16-17?

How could the Son not have pre-existed when we are told "he was in the form of God . . . but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men"?

How could the Father say that the Son created all things as Yahweh, in Heb. 1:10-12, if the Son never existed prior to his incarnation?

All of these passages (and others) can only mean that the Son pre-existed eternally with the Father. There is simply no other reasonable conclusion.