Sinless To Be Saved

[onlysaved]

I think that Jesus leads us to God as the natural man cannot find God without Jesus

" Apart from Him we can do nothing."

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

How does one become saved?

Step 1.
God chooses you
Step 2
God prepares your heart to receive the Gospel
Step 3
God sends someone to preach the Gospel
Step 4 God softens your heart so that you can repent and believe.

It's 100% God's work. Not one bit of effort for human pride. Nothing to hang your hat on.

After that, comes growing obedience to God's law. The process called sanctification. Again, God's work not ours.

Why then are we subject to God's judgment? Because He is the sovereign God and we have no standing before Him to complain about anything.

He hardens your heart so as not to believe? That's His prerogative to do so, you're an object lesson for those to whom He gives mercy.

If nothing else makes you tremble before God, that should.
God's ways are not our ways and He is under no obligation to explain Himself or work in a way that makes sense to us.

God is sovereign over salvation, He saves who He wants to save and that's the end of it. Those He wants to save are saved and they can make their lives harder by being less obedient but they cannot escape His mercy.

 

[donadams]

I explained it before. There is no biblical distinction between civil ceremonial or moral law. So according to James 2.10, if you break a ceremonial law you also have broken a moral law.

whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

does not refer to the 600 plus laws but only to the two greatest commandments

mt 22:37-40

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

gal 5:1-4

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

thks

 

[donadams]

From the very beginning it has always been about having faith in God and being obedient to His commands. It was never about keeping all of the 613 Levitical laws as many of those laws were added to by man, not God, but yet we are to follow the moral laws within all of them.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Under the new and better covenant of God's grace through Christ Jesus we come to have faith in Christ who gave His life so we can have eternal life with Him to all who will believe.

No one can ever be to lost to be found.

but not "faith alone"!
Abraham had to leave His land and sacrifice His son!

Moses had to build the ark!

David, Joshua etc all had to put their faith into action!

thks

 

[onlysaved]

but not "faith alone"!
Abraham had to leave His land and sacrifice His son!

Moses had to build the ark!

David, Joshua etc all had to put their faith into action!

thks

Abraham left his land and was willing to sacrifice his son because of faith.

Small distinction but huge in consequence.

The thief on the cross was saved by faith alone.. actually by grace alone but I think we understand that.

He had no opportunity to do anything but to acknowledge who Jesus was and confess it.
He repented and believed... that's all nothing else.. from the cross straight to heaven. No baptism , no good works , no personal atonement. Nothing just a confession of faith.

 

[donadams]

Abraham left his land and was willing to sacrifice his son because of faith.

Small distinction but huge in consequence.

The thief on the cross was saved by faith alone.. actually by grace alone but I think we understand that.

He had no opportunity to do anything but to acknowledge who Jesus was and confess it.
He repented and believed... that's all nothing else.. from the cross straight to heaven. No baptism , no good works , no personal atonement. Nothing just a confession of faith.

how do you know how the thief was saved?

it does not say "saved by faith alone"!

how do know it was not by humble prayer like the publican?

was Paul saved by "faith alone"?

phil 1:29 called to faith and suffering for Christ sake (paraphrase)

acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

acts 22:16 before (saul) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. after (Paul)

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

So those who have never heard of Jesus are doomed....?
From the beginning of time?

Then how were those in the OT saved?

Jesus DID die for everyone.
Unlimited atonement.

Everyone on earth who ever lived and is saved....is saved due to the sacrifice of Jesus to pay for the sin of Adam and Eve before a just God.

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
And, you'd have to explain Romans 1:19-22
WHY no excuse for everyone?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Also, do you believe Lydia would have been lost had she not ever met Paul?
Acts 16:14-15
14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
15 And when she and her household had been baptized,

God opened her heart to the gospel.
But she WORSHIPPED God even before she met Paul.

If a person believes in God and obeys God....they can be lost?

Yes, all believers have been saved through faith in Jesus (Hebrews 11). The Old Testament believers trusted in the coming of Jesus (the Messiah) in the future (Genesis 3:15, the curse given to Satan), "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” That promise was passed down through the generations from Adam and Eve's fall. The line of Cain rejected it, while the line of Seth embraced it until they became corrupted by intermarrying with Cain's descendants (Genesis 6:1-2) except for Noah.

Gen 6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them,
Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

However, God's promise made them all accountable to him in addition to the fact that he reveals himself in his creation as their Creator (Romans 1:18-20).

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

[Fish153]

YOU are not hanging on a cross Fish.

So all those verses I posted of what JESUS taught are irrelevant to you?

You said.
"you are not saved by being a good person".

God will be happy to hear this.
It's not what HE wants...but I suppose it suits YOU.

BTW,,,you have NOT replied to my posts.

What you're doing is called verse ping pong....
You don't like what I plainly post, coming from Paul or Jesus...
so you retort with verses of your own.

You mentioned Revelation...

Do you accept this verse, or is it among those you do not accept?

Revelation 21:27
27 and nothing unclean, and no * one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever * come into it, but only * those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
And names can be deleted from the Lamb's book of life:
Revelation 3.5
5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Those who overcome will not be erased from the Book of Life.
Those who overcome...

I'm not playing verse ping-pong at all. You believe that your good works will get you into Heaven. You believe that God will basically look at the scales and if you have done more good than bad you will go to Heaven. But the Bible does not teach that. The thief on the cross had no time to do any "good". He, along with the other thief at first mocked Jesus. But then in Luke it says he "saw" something. He studied Jesus and saw that He had done NO WRONG. He UNDERSTOOD and BELIEVED. He asked if Jesus would not forget him when he came into his Kingdom. He DID NOT EXPECT TO BE IN PARADISE THAT VERY DAY. But Jesus honored the man's faith and trust in Him.

Once again:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)

Compare with:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looks upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived". (Numbers 21: 8,9)

Read these two examples carefully. You will see that the people involved DO NOTHING but look and believe, just like the thief on the cross. The people who were bit "beheld" the serpent of brass and lived! They didn't do some "good work" first---they beheld and believed. Jesus states the same in John 3:14,15. When we believe in Jesus and what he did on the cross for us we are saved. We are saved "UNTO" GOOD WORKS----NOT "BY" OUR WORKS.

If you would seriously read these verses GodsGrace, along with Ephesians 2: 8-10 as I, and many others have quoted to you, you would see that we are saved by faith---not by our works. Our salvation LEADS TO good works---just as when Abraham FIRST BELIEVED he was led to "good works" in his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham believed and it was accounted onto him as righteousness. The RESULT of that belief LED to his good works. Don't you understand?

 

[Free]

but not "faith alone"!
Abraham had to leave His land and sacrifice His son!

Moses had to build the ark!

David, Joshua etc all had to put their faith into action!

It's their faith that saved them. Paul even tells us this plainly about Abraham, in Romans 4. You'll probably also want to read Hebrews 11. Faith comes first and action is on the basis of that faith.

how do you know how the thief was saved?

it does not say "saved by faith alone"!

how do know it was not by humble prayer like the publican?

Did the thief get down and get baptised, then get back up on the cross to die? Did he come off the cross and quickly go do some charitable work first?

How in the world do you think that saying a humble prayer is opposed to faith alone? How else does one express their initial faith other than speaking?

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

was Paul saved by "faith alone"?

Of course! That is the only way anyone is saved--by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

phil 1:29 called to faith and suffering for Christ sake (paraphrase)

acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

acts 22:16 before (saul) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. after (Paul)

What do these have to do with anything? You really, really do not understand what is meant by faith alone. How can that still be, as you have had it explained to you numerous times?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

but not "faith alone"!
Abraham had to leave His land and sacrifice His son!

Moses had to build the ark!

David, Joshua etc all had to put their faith into action!

thks

donadams, it's by faith alone that they put their faith into action as a result of God's gift of faith by his grace:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not playing verse ping-pong at all. You believe that your good works will get you into Heaven. You believe that God will basically look at the scales and if you have done more good than bad you will go to Heaven. But the Bible does not teach that. The thief on the cross had no time to do any "good". He, along with the other thief at first mocked Jesus. But then in Luke it says he "saw" something. He studied Jesus and saw that He had done NO WRONG. He UNDERSTOOD and BELIEVED. He asked if Jesus would not forget him when he came into his Kingdom. He DID NOT EXPECT TO BE IN PARADISE THAT VERY DAY. But Jesus honored the man's faith and trust in Him.

Once again:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)

Compare with:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looks upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived". (Numbers 21: 8,9)

Read these two examples carefully. You will see that the people involved DO NOTHING but look and believe, just like the thief on the cross. The people who were bit "beheld" the serpent of brass and lived! They didn't do some "good work" first---they beheld and believed. Jesus states the same in John 3:14,15. When we believe in Jesus and what he did on the cross for us we are saved. We are saved "UNTO" GOOD WORKS----NOT "BY" OUR WORKS.

If you would seriously read these verses GodsGrace, along with Ephesians 2: 8-10 as I, and many others have quoted to you, you would see that we are saved by faith---not by our works. Our salvation LEADS TO good works---just as when Abraham FIRST BELIEVED he was led to "good works" in his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham believed and it was accounted onto him as righteousness. The RESULT of that belief LED to his good works. Don't you understand?

And YOU, Fish, go back and read the verses I've posted that say nothing of what you've written above.
JESUS NEVER said to do NOTHING.
There's a whole list of things Jesus said to do.

And you don't back up your statements with scripture,,,
so it's your opinion and I don't respond to opinions.

Here's what Jesus said to do:


1. Repent - Matthew 4:17
"From that time Jesus began topreach, saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'"

2. Follow Me - Matthew 4:19
"And he said to them, 'Followme, and I will make you fishers of men.'"

3. Rejoice - Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, for yourreward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets whowere before you."

4. Let Your Light Shine - Matthew5:16
"In the same way, let yourlight shine before others, so that they may see your good works andgive glory to your Father who is in heaven."

5. Honor God’s Law - Matthew5:17-19
"Do not think that I have cometo abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish thembut to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earthpass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until allis accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of thesecommandments and teaches others to do the same will be called leastin the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them willbe called great in the kingdom of heaven."

6. Be Reconciled - Matthew 5:24-25
"Leave your gift there beforethe altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then comeand offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser whileyou are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over tothe judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison."

7. Do Not Lust - Matthew 5:28-30
"But I say to you that everyonewho looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committedadultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin,tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one ofyour members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And ifyour right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. Forit is better that you lose one of your members than that your wholebody go into hell."

8. Keep Your Word - Matthew 5:37
"Let what you say be simply'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil."

9. Go the Second Mile - Matthew5:38-42
"You have heard that it wassaid, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you,Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on theright cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue youand take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyoneforces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one whobegs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you."

10. Love Your Enemies - Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, Love yourenemies and pray for those who persecute you,"


page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Fish153

page 2 of 2


11. Be Perfect - Matthew 5:48
"You therefore must beperfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

12. Practice Secret Disciplines(Giving, Praying, Fasting) - Matthew 6:1-18
[Due to the length, this passageoutlines Jesus' teaching on giving to the needy, praying, andfasting, emphasizing doing these actions not to be seen by others butin secret, where your Father who sees in secret will reward you.]

13. Lay Up Treasures in Heaven -Matthew 6:19-21
"Do not lay up for yourselvestreasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thievesbreak in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven,where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not breakin and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will bealso."

14. Seek God’s Kingdom - Matthew6:33
"But seek first the kingdom ofGod and his righteousness, and all these things will be added toyou."

15. Judge Not - Matthew 7:1-2
"Judge not, that you be notjudged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, andwith the measure you use it will be measured to you."

16. Do Not Throw Pearls to Pigs -Matthew 7:6
"Do not give dogs what isholy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they tramplethem underfoot and turn to attack you."

17. Ask, Seek, Knock - Matthew 7:7-8
"Ask, and it will be given toyou; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and tothe one who knocks it will be opened."

18. Do Unto Others - Matthew 7:12
"So whatever you wish thatothers would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and theProphets."

19. Choose the Narrow Way - Matthew7:13-14
"Enter by the narrow gate. Forthe gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, andthose who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way ishard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

20. Beware of False Prophets -Matthew 7:15
"Beware of false prophets, whocome to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

21. Pray for Laborers - Matthew 9:38
"Therefore pray earnestly tothe Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest."

22. Be Wise as Serpents - Matthew10:16
"Behold, I am sending you outas sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocentas doves."

23. Fear Not - Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those whokill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who candestroy both soul and body in hell."

24. Hear God’s Voice - Matthew11:15
"He who has ears to hear, lethim hear."

25. Take My Yoke - Matthew 11:29
"Take my yoke upon you, andlearn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will findrest for your souls."

26. Honor Your Parents - Matthew15:4
"For God commanded, 'Honoryour father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mothermust surely die.'"

27. Beware of Leaven - Matthew 16:6
"Jesus said to them, 'Watchand beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.'"

28. Deny Yourself - Matthew 16:24
"Then Jesus told hisdisciples, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself andtake up his cross and follow me.'"

29. Do Not Despise Little Ones -Matthew 18:10
"See that you do not despiseone of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angelsalways see the face of my Father who is in heaven."

30. Go to Offenders - Matthew 18:15
"If your brother sins againstyou, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If helistens to you, you have gained your brother."

31. Beware of Covetousness - Luke12:15
"And he said to them, 'Takecare, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's lifedoes not consist in the abundance of his possessions.'"

32. Forgive Offenders - Matthew18:21-22
"Then Peter came up and saidto him, 'Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and Iforgive him? As many as seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'I do notsay to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.'"

33. Honor Marriage - Matthew 19:6
"So they are no longer two butone flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not manseparate."

34. Be a Servant - Matthew 20:26-27
"It shall not be so among you.But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, andwhoever would be first among you must be your slave,"

35. Be a House of Prayer - Matthew21:13
"He said to them, 'It iswritten, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but youmake it a den of robbers.'"

36. Ask in Faith - Matthew 21:21-22
"And Jesus answered them,'Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you willnot only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you sayto this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it willhappen. And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you havefaith.'"

37. Bring in the Poor - Luke14:12-14
"He said also to the man who had invited him, 'When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not inviteyour friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors,lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when yougive a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, andyou will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will berepaid at the resurrection of the just.'"

38. Render to Caesar - Matthew22:19-21
"Show me the coin for thetax.' And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, 'Whoselikeness and inscription is this?' They said, 'Caesar's.' Then hesaid to them, 'Therefore render to Caesar the things that areCaesar's, and to God the things that are God's.'"

39. Love the Lord - Matthew 22:37
"And he said to him, 'Youshall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all yoursoul and with all your mind.'"

40. Love Your Neighbor - Matthew22:39
"And a second is like it: Youshall love your neighbor as yourself."

41. Await My Return - Matthew24:42-44
"Therefore, stay awake, foryou do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, thatif the master of the house had known in what part of the night thethief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have lethis house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for theSon of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

42. Celebrate the Lord’s Supper -Matthew 26:26-27
"Now as they were eating,Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to thedisciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup,and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ofit, all of you,'"

43. Watch and Pray - Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray that you maynot enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but theflesh is weak."

44. Feed My Sheep - John 21:15-16
"When they had finishedbreakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon, son of John, do youlove me more than these?' He said to him, 'Yes, Lord; you know that Ilove you.' He said to him, 'Feed my lambs.' He said to him a secondtime, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me?' He said to him, 'Yes,Lord; you know that I love you.' He said to him, 'Tend my sheep.'"

45. Baptize My Disciples - Matthew28:19
"Go therefore and makedisciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

46. Teach Them to Obey My Commands -Matthew 28:20
"Teaching them to observe allthat I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to theend of the age."

47. Receive God’s Power - Luke24:49
"And behold, I am sending thepromise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you areclothed with power from on high."

48. Make Disciples - Matthew28:19-20
"Go therefore and makedisciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe allthat I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to theend of the age."

 

[GodsGrace]

donadams, it's by faith alone that they put their faith into action as a result of God's gift of faith by his grace:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Bruce,
This is the problem, as I see it.

FAITH ALONE was never taught in the NT.
It is mentioned only one time and in the negative in the letter of James.

If Ephesians 2:10 is correct...
then it cannot be by faith alone.

If we are created for good works,,,,
then good works are necessary.

FAITH ALONE, as I'm sure you know,
means that NOTHING else is needed except faith.

This idea, coming from the Reformation, has caused Christianity to be washed down
and may even cause some to lose their salvation...I leave this up to God.

Many on these forums will state that our good works are filthy rags to §God...
someone right on here stated this just a few days ago.

So the concept of FAITH ALONE will cause:

1. Believers to think that their good works (which Jesus demanded) are like filthy rags.
2. §The undermining of Christian values.
3. Belief is essential and not behavior. (Jesus taught that behavior is essential).
4. Hypocrisy. Jesus said that the Pharisees teach but do not do.
5. Rejection of the authority of God to set the standard.
6. Some to believe that Jesus did all, and believers are to do NOTHING.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

" Apart from Him we can do nothing."

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

How does one become saved?

Step 1.
God chooses you
Step 2
God prepares your heart to receive the Gospel
Step 3
God sends someone to preach the Gospel
Step 4 God softens your heart so that you can repent and believe.

It's 100% God's work. Not one bit of effort for human pride. Nothing to hang your hat on.

After that, comes growing obedience to God's law. The process called sanctification. Again, God's work not ours.

Why then are we subject to God's judgment? Because He is the sovereign God and we have no standing before Him to complain about anything.

He hardens your heart so as not to believe? That's His prerogative to do so, you're an object lesson for those to whom He gives mercy.

If nothing else makes you tremble before God, that should.
God's ways are not our ways and He is under no obligation to explain Himself or work in a way that makes sense to us.

God is sovereign over salvation, He saves who He wants to save and that's the end of it. Those He wants to save are saved and they can make their lives harder by being less obedient but they cannot escape His mercy.

Are you saying he has people he wants saved and others he doesn't?

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Bruce,
This is the problem, as I see it.

FAITH ALONE was never taught in the NT.
It is mentioned only one time and in the negative in the letter of James.

If Ephesians 2:10 is correct...
then it cannot be by faith alone.

If we are created for good works,,,,
then good works are necessary.

FAITH ALONE, as I'm sure you know,
means that NOTHING else is needed except faith.

This idea, coming from the Reformation, has caused Christianity to be washed down
and may even cause some to lose their salvation...I leave this up to God.

Many on these forums will state that our good works are filthy rags to §God...
someone right on here stated this just a few days ago.

So the concept of FAITH ALONE will cause:

1. Believers to think that their good works (which Jesus demanded) are like filthy rags.
2. §The undermining of Christian values.
3. Belief is essential and not behavior. (Jesus taught that behavior is essential).
4. Hypocrisy. Jesus said that the Pharisees teach but do not do.
5. Rejection of the authority of God to set the standard.
6. Some to believe that Jesus did all, and believers are to do NOTHING.

So what then does it take to keep our salvation? if not faith alone then do our works make us saved or keep our salvation? Yes our works are indeed part of it as good works are the fruits of the spirit it comes naturally to the regenreated person but it is not what keeps our salvation right?
What does the bible say about that?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that Jesus leads us to God as the natural man cannot find God without Jesus

The bible does not state what you've written.
If you can find a verse, it would be helpful.

Throughout scripture, both the OT and the NT, we are exhorted
to seek for God. It does not say to seek Jesus, but to seek God.
And Jesus IS God...so no problem here.
But Jesus did not appear until He was born and man had always been looking for God.

Seeking God:

Matthew 6:33
33But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
James 4:8
8Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.


Deuteronomy 4:29
29But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Job 5:8
8“As for me, I would seek God,,,
Psalm 69:32
32When the humble see it they will be glad; you who seek God, let your hearts revive.

 

[Beetow]

.
Back in the decade of the 1960s, while still a young guy in his twenties, I came to
the realization that even if I managed to live a pious enough life to make the cut
for Heaven, I was pretty sure I couldn't keep up the good work forever. Sooner or
later I'd show my true colors and get thrown out.

It occurred to me that if I were as normally and naturally pleasing to God as His
son Jesus always is, then it would be not only be very easy to attain Heaven but
just as easy to stay there. Well; God must've read my thoughts because in the
course of time, I ran across a passage in the book of Ezekiel that goes like this:

"I will gather you up from all the nations and bring you home again to your land.
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be
washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart
with new and right desires, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your
stony heart of sin and give you a new, obedient heart. And I will put My spirit in
you so you will obey My laws and do whatever I command. (36:24-27)

Just think of the tremendous advantage that passage speaks of. Whereas I am
normally and naturally impious, with that promise in hand I could become just the
opposite, viz: I could become normally and naturally pious. That passage in Ezekiel
really perked me up and lifted my spirits because it gave me a light at the end of
the tunnel whereas before then, I had none.

* Eph 2:11-22 tells how that God has a way for Gentiles to share in the Jews'
benefits. The light at the end of the tunnel spoken of above is available to everyone
on Earth regardless of age, race, color, or gender identity; which the apostle Peter
sums up by saying:

● 2Pet 1:2-4 . . Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of
God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given us everything we need for
life and piety through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and
goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious promises, so
that through them you may participate in the divine nature.

I suspect that given the choice, most folks would prefer to keep their human
nature; mostly because they're so used to it. But if divine nature is what it takes to
get into God's world and stay in God's world, then of course there's no contest.
_

 

[GodsGrace]

So what then does it take to keep our salvation? if not faith alone then do our works make us saved or keep our salvation? Yes our works are indeed part of it as good works are the fruits of the spirit it comes naturally to the regenreated person but it is not what keeps our salvation right?
What does the bible say about that?

Faith alone is not taught in the bible.
What IS taught is that we must obey God.
Jesus left us with many things to do,,,
with many teachings.

He spent over 3 years teaching the §Apostles...
if faith were all that is needed, it would have taken only a week or two.

What keeps us saved is obeying God to the best of our ability.
Some will come on these Forums and proclaim that our works are a result of our faith.
Well, OF COURSE!
Unbelievers are not REQUIRED to obey God...
Believers are REQUIRED to obey God.

I've heard many say that we can sin and stray away from God and still be saved.
This is not what Jesus taught and not what Paul taught.

Jesus said this:
Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Paul said this:
Romans 2:5-8
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

 

[GodsGrace]

.
Back in the decade of the 1960s, while still a young guy in his twenties, I came to
the realization that even if I managed to live a pious enough life to make the cut
for Heaven, I was pretty sure I couldn't keep up the good work forever. Sooner or
later I'd show my true colors and get thrown out.

It occurred to me that if I were as normally and naturally pleasing to God as His
son Jesus always is, then it would be not only be very easy to attain Heaven but
just as easy to stay there. Well; God must've read my thoughts because in the
course of time, I ran across a passage in the book of Ezekiel that goes like this:

"I will gather you up from all the nations and bring you home again to your land.
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be
washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart
with new and right desires, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your
stony heart of sin and give you a new, obedient heart. And I will put My spirit in
you so you will obey My laws and do whatever I command. (36:24-27)

Great post Beetow....

Look at what it states above:
"I WILL TAKE OUT YOUR STONY HEART OF SIN AND GIVE YOU A NEW,
OBEDIENT HEART.

AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU SO YOU WILL OBEY MY LAWS AND DO
WHATEVER I COMMAND".


We all know that we will never be perfect and that we must depend on the power of the Holy Spirit to live a life that would be pleasing to God.

God knows this too.

But some will post as if obedience to §God is not important and that we will be saved no matter what.

This concept is not found in the NT and is most egregious to our good Lord Who went to the cross so that we may be saved.

The least we could do is obey Him!
(to our best ability).

Just think of the tremendous advantage that passage speaks of. Whereas I am
normally and naturally impious, with that promise in hand I could become just the
opposite, viz: I could become normally and naturally pious. That passage in Ezekiel
really perked me up and lifted my spirits because it gave me a light at the end of
the tunnel whereas before then, I had none.

* Eph 2:11-22 tells how that God has a way for Gentiles to share in the Jews'
benefits. The light at the end of the tunnel spoken of above is available to everyone
on Earth regardless of age, race, color, or gender identity; which the apostle Peter
sums up by saying:

● 2Pet 1:2-4 . . Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of
God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given us everything we need for
life and piety through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and
goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious promises, so
that through them you may participate in the divine nature.

I suspect that given the choice, most folks would prefer to keep their human
nature; mostly because they're so used to it. But if divine nature is what it takes to
get into God's world and stay in God's world, then of course there's no contest.
_

Naturally pious.
Sounds good !

 

[Fish153]

Fish153

page 2 of 2


11. Be Perfect - Matthew 5:48
"You therefore must beperfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

12. Practice Secret Disciplines(Giving, Praying, Fasting) - Matthew 6:1-18
[Due to the length, this passageoutlines Jesus' teaching on giving to the needy, praying, andfasting, emphasizing doing these actions not to be seen by others butin secret, where your Father who sees in secret will reward you.]

13. Lay Up Treasures in Heaven -Matthew 6:19-21
"Do not lay up for yourselvestreasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thievesbreak in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven,where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not breakin and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will bealso."

14. Seek God’s Kingdom - Matthew6:33
"But seek first the kingdom ofGod and his righteousness, and all these things will be added toyou."

15. Judge Not - Matthew 7:1-2
"Judge not, that you be notjudged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, andwith the measure you use it will be measured to you."

16. Do Not Throw Pearls to Pigs -Matthew 7:6
"Do not give dogs what isholy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they tramplethem underfoot and turn to attack you."

17. Ask, Seek, Knock - Matthew 7:7-8
"Ask, and it will be given toyou; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and tothe one who knocks it will be opened."

18. Do Unto Others - Matthew 7:12
"So whatever you wish thatothers would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and theProphets."

19. Choose the Narrow Way - Matthew7:13-14
"Enter by the narrow gate. Forthe gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, andthose who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way ishard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

20. Beware of False Prophets -Matthew 7:15
"Beware of false prophets, whocome to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

21. Pray for Laborers - Matthew 9:38
"Therefore pray earnestly tothe Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest."

22. Be Wise as Serpents - Matthew10:16
"Behold, I am sending you outas sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocentas doves."

23. Fear Not - Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those whokill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who candestroy both soul and body in hell."

24. Hear God’s Voice - Matthew11:15
"He who has ears to hear, lethim hear."

25. Take My Yoke - Matthew 11:29
"Take my yoke upon you, andlearn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will findrest for your souls."

26. Honor Your Parents - Matthew15:4
"For God commanded, 'Honoryour father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mothermust surely die.'"

27. Beware of Leaven - Matthew 16:6
"Jesus said to them, 'Watchand beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.'"

28. Deny Yourself - Matthew 16:24
"Then Jesus told hisdisciples, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself andtake up his cross and follow me.'"

29. Do Not Despise Little Ones -Matthew 18:10
"See that you do not despiseone of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angelsalways see the face of my Father who is in heaven."

30. Go to Offenders - Matthew 18:15
"If your brother sins againstyou, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If helistens to you, you have gained your brother."

31. Beware of Covetousness - Luke12:15
"And he said to them, 'Takecare, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's lifedoes not consist in the abundance of his possessions.'"

32. Forgive Offenders - Matthew18:21-22
"Then Peter came up and saidto him, 'Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and Iforgive him? As many as seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'I do notsay to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.'"

33. Honor Marriage - Matthew 19:6
"So they are no longer two butone flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not manseparate."

34. Be a Servant - Matthew 20:26-27
"It shall not be so among you.But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, andwhoever would be first among you must be your slave,"

35. Be a House of Prayer - Matthew21:13
"He said to them, 'It iswritten, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but youmake it a den of robbers.'"

36. Ask in Faith - Matthew 21:21-22
"And Jesus answered them,'Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you willnot only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you sayto this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it willhappen. And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you havefaith.'"

37. Bring in the Poor - Luke14:12-14
"He said also to the man who had invited him, 'When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not inviteyour friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors,lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when yougive a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, andyou will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will berepaid at the resurrection of the just.'"

38. Render to Caesar - Matthew22:19-21
"Show me the coin for thetax.' And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, 'Whoselikeness and inscription is this?' They said, 'Caesar's.' Then hesaid to them, 'Therefore render to Caesar the things that areCaesar's, and to God the things that are God's.'"

39. Love the Lord - Matthew 22:37
"And he said to him, 'Youshall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all yoursoul and with all your mind.'"

40. Love Your Neighbor - Matthew22:39
"And a second is like it: Youshall love your neighbor as yourself."

41. Await My Return - Matthew24:42-44
"Therefore, stay awake, foryou do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, thatif the master of the house had known in what part of the night thethief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have lethis house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for theSon of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

42. Celebrate the Lord’s Supper -Matthew 26:26-27
"Now as they were eating,Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to thedisciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup,and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ofit, all of you,'"

43. Watch and Pray - Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray that you maynot enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but theflesh is weak."

44. Feed My Sheep - John 21:15-16
"When they had finishedbreakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon, son of John, do youlove me more than these?' He said to him, 'Yes, Lord; you know that Ilove you.' He said to him, 'Feed my lambs.' He said to him a secondtime, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me?' He said to him, 'Yes,Lord; you know that I love you.' He said to him, 'Tend my sheep.'"

45. Baptize My Disciples - Matthew28:19
"Go therefore and makedisciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

46. Teach Them to Obey My Commands -Matthew 28:20
"Teaching them to observe allthat I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to theend of the age."

47. Receive God’s Power - Luke24:49
"And behold, I am sending thepromise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you areclothed with power from on high."

48. Make Disciples - Matthew28:19-20
"Go therefore and makedisciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe allthat I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to theend of the age."

You don't even read the verses that teach you are "saved by Grace through faith". YES----There are a lot of things Jesus said to DO. But NONE OF THOSE THINGS SAVE YOU. You are saved TO DO THOSE THINGS!! That's what I have (and many others) been trying to explain to you through Scripture.

I'll give you another set of scriptures:

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
NOT by works of righteousness WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Titus 3: 4-8)

NOTE VERSE 8: "THEY WHICH HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD MIGHT BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS". It DOES NOT say anything about being saved by good works----it says that those WHO ARE SAVED should be careful to MAINTAIN good works.

You refuse to see this. You can put (50) more verses up about what we are supposed to DO as Christians and I will totally agree with you----but we don't DO these things TO BE SAVED!! We do them BECAUSE we are ALREADY SAVED!!

 

[onlysaved]

Are you saying he has people he wants saved and others he doesn't?

At least to an extent yes and it is perfectly with in His power, right and justice to do so. Remember He is not obligated to save any of us. The Bible however is clear, there is an elect.

how do you know how the thief was saved?

it does not say "saved by faith alone"!

how do know it was not by humble prayer like the publican?

was Paul saved by "faith alone"?

phil 1:29 called to faith and suffering for Christ sake (paraphrase)

acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

acts 22:16 before (saul) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. after (Paul)

Because Jesus said he was...

"Today you'll be with me is paradise "

Yes Paul was saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. His suffering had absolutely nothing to do with his salvation and none of the verses you posted indicate otherwise.

I'm sorry you think so highly of yourself that you think you can do enough good or suffer enough sacrifice to earn your way to heaven.

"Blessed is the man who's transgressions are forgiven, the one who's sin the Lord doesn't count against him"

Adam and Eve in the garden their redemption was entirely God's work.

It's always God's work.. why?
Because we "all have Gone astray" we all " are altogether worthless "
"There is no one who seeks God"

Do you understand how bad we are?
There is a reason we need a savior. It's not to make us better.. it's because we cannot save ourselves.