Sinless To Be Saved

[donadams]

I don't understand this question.


What do you mean by "lost" and "damned"? Sin has several negative affects in a believer's life. For instance, it affects the believer's fellowship with God, much like how sin between persons causes distance and a loss of closeness, but will not cause them to lose their salvation, if that is what you mean.

thats what scripture says loss of eternal life And salvation!

gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

eph 5:3-7
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

thks

 

[donadams]

Everyone chooses to sin even post conversion. Therefore all go to hell

there is a difference between lesser sins and greater motal sins that causes the loss of grace and salvation!

 

[JLB]

I'd say in most situations yes but id have to know the context each time it's used.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

In Christ is very simple and plain.

Where is there a scripture that refers to a person who is in Christ but somehow is not saved?

Those who are in Christ are joined with Him and are one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

 

[Free]

thats what scripture says loss of eternal life And salvation!

gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

eph 5:3-7
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

So where do any of those verses say "loss of eternal life And salvation!"?

 

[Free]

I think you have answered the question well.

However the question and answer are in the most general sense.


What happens if a believer doesn’t obey this teaching from Jesus Christ?

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15

Will they continue to be saved?

Yes, but it will certainly affect their relationship with God. Of course, a true believer will forgive others sooner or later.

Should it result in loss of salvation? If so, when and why?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

That is where we absolutely disagree. Once you're saved you're saved
"He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it"
Once the work is started God promised He will finish it " that is sanctification.

onlysaved, I beg to differ with your interpretation of Philippians 1:6, though I agree that God will continue to sanctify us based on other passages. If you check the context of that verse, you will see that God's good work is our spreading the gospel (verse 5), not sanctification:

Php 1:3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
Php 1:4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy,
Php 1:5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.
Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

onlysaved, I beg to differ with your interpretation of Philippians 1:6, though I agree that God will continue to sanctify us based on other passages. If you check the context of that verse, you will see that God's good work is our spreading the gospel (verse 5), not sanctification:

Php 1:3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
Php 1:4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy,
Php 1:5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.
Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Bruce,
Agreed 100%

But I do believe that God can bring to completion any work that we either have to do...
or salvation itself.

I'd say that if we allow the Holy Spirit....He will help us to complete all works.

(you may not agree).

 

[GodsGrace]

I know. Good works don't save us, which means they cannot keep us saved.


Those are are saved will do good works, those very works they were created to do. Those who don't do good works, who have no desire to do good works, were never truly saved to begin with.


It is not a straw man, as I am not stating anything about what you believe, and I don't think that is why you don't want to reply. It is relevant to the discussion.


While being unwilling to answer whether or not disobedience is sin. It is relevant.


Again, no one in this thread is saying that, that I have seen.


Of course. So am I.


Again, there was no straw man. You seem to be avoiding anything to difficult for your position to take into account.


Then it be.


Not for salvation, he doesn't.


Maybe.


Now, here is a straw man. My statement was, "That is, by definition, salvation by works. It is that which most of us are opposing." While my statement clearly is in opposition to salvation by works, you have misrepresented it to mean opposing good works in general.


And I've already addressed this. Please, take things in context.


Which doesn't "keep us saved."


This doesn't make any sense.


Which isn't relevant to anything I've said.


Where? Not in this thread.


Not at all. Believers are supposed to do good works. I have stated that numerous times. They just don't save us.


It doesn't; it didn't even need to be stated in the first place because it is obviously true and has nothing to do with anything I've stated.


Again, this is to state the obvious, and it doesn't address what I stated.


I have repeatedly answered this question and just from reading all I have written, the question doesn't even need to be asked to know what I believe on this. But, yes, believers are to obey God.

I'll stop here Free.
We agree that we are to obey God.
That's good enough for me.
There should be no confusion...I always stated that I'm addressing AFTER salvation.

 

[onlysaved]

onlysaved, I beg to differ with your interpretation of Philippians 1:6, though I agree that God will continue to sanctify us based on other passages. If you check the context of that verse, you will see that God's good work is our spreading the gospel (verse 5), not sanctification:

Php 1:3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
Php 1:4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy,
Php 1:5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.
Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

You're absolutely right, I'm wrong.

I'll be shutting up now.

 

[JLB]

Yes, but it will certainly affect their relationship with God. Of course, a true believer will forgive others sooner or later.

Should it result in loss of salvation? If so, when and why?

Why?

Because their sins are no longer forgiven.

They are in their sins just as they were before they were saved?

Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:32-35

Remember this teaching is contextually connected to what Jesus had just taught about the lost sheep, and then He explained how we are to go after a brother who sins.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17

Here is how we go after one of His sheep who is straying.

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
The conclusion of the matter -

And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.



So no, absolutely not. If a person refuses to forgive then they will not be forgiven theirs sins.

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15

If they stubbornly refuse even to the end of their life they will die in their sins just as the unsaved.

 

[Free]

If they stubbornly refuse even to the end of their life they will die in their sins just as the unsaved.

Which means they weren't saved to begin with. A true believer will, sooner or later, forgive.

 

[JesusFan]

If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God which is defined in the 66 books of the Bible.
Keeping the law of God means thinking, speaking and acting as God wants you to.
I am speaking about the moral law, not about the ceremonial law.
The moral law: Do not worship idols, do not steal, do not murder, do not wear women's clothes, do not commit fornication, do not eat blood, and many more.
The ceremonial law was fulfilled by Jesus, therefore no one should obey the ceremonial law. If someone still wants to keep the ceremonial law, he has fallen from grace (Gal 5:4).

Faith means keeping the law,
loving God means following the commandments,
being a Christian means to imitate Jesus.

Matthew 19:16-17, "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:18-20, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commandments."
1 John 3:6, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
Romans 6:1-2, "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

And yes, it's possible to keep the law of God, for Deuteronomy 30:11 says: "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach."
And yes, there were people who were perfect, for Job 1:1 says: "and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."
And why was Abraham chosen, why did God love Abraham? Genesis 26:5 says: "Because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

No, we are saved by Grace of the Cross alone received thru faith alone, Pauline Justification

 

[donadams]

So where do any of those verses say "loss of eternal life And salvation!"?

gal 5:21 shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, we are saved by Grace of the Cross alone received thru faith alone, Pauline Justification

You call yourself JesusFan but seem to believe in something called "Pauline justification".

Do you believe Paul teaches something different than Jesus?

 

[Free]

gal 5:21 shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

So, again, where do any of those verses say "loss of eternal life And salvation!"?

 

[JLB]

Which means they weren't saved to begin with. A true believer will, sooner or later, forgive.

Please share the scripture that says a true believer will sooner or later forgive.

I don’t find any passage that mentions the phrase “true believer”.

Jesus was speaking directly to Peter. This was for Peter and His disciples.

Jesus knew they would all be persecuted and eventually martyred.

They would need to know they must forgive.

The truth that Jesus taught us is simple, and eternal.

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15

Either a person forgives or they don’t.

And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:32-35

 

[JesusFan]

You call yourself JesusFan but seem to believe in something called "Pauline justification".

Do you believe Paul teaches something different than Jesus?

Pauline Justification is a revelation to Paul concerning the Gospel

 

[Free]

Please share the scripture that says a true believer will sooner or later forgive.

The idea is throughout the NT.

I don’t find any passage that mentions the phrase “true believer”.

You won't, but the idea is throughout the NT. Can't miss it.

Jesus was speaking directly to Peter. This was for Peter and His disciples.

Jesus knew they would all be persecuted and eventually martyred.

They would need to know they must forgive.

Thanks for a perfect example of reading into the text what you want. Who was Jesus speaking to? The disciples, sure, but who else?

Mat 5:1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. (ESV)

Mat 7:28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
Mat 7:29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. (ESV)

The truth that Jesus taught us is simple, and eternal.

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15

Either a person forgives or they don’t.

And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:32-35

And a true believer will eventually forgive.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pauline Justification is a revelation to Paul concerning the Gospel

I never heard of "Pauline justification".

What I wanted to know is this:

Is what Paul taught DIFFERENT from what Jesus taught?

IOW,,,,,are there two gospels?
Two faiths?
Two religions?

Did Paul begin his own religion or is he teaching what Jesus taught?

 

[GodsGrace]

So, again, where do any of those verses say "loss of eternal life And salvation!"?

What donadams is posting is correct theology.

IF someone does the things as in the verse....
they surely will not enter into the Kingdom of God ..... in this case it could very well be either the earthly kingdom or heaven....no entrance to either.

Those that teach that obedience is not necessary, or does not matter, are, in effect, stating that a person COULD indulge in these behaviors and STILL be saved.

Whether or not YOU think persons state this is not important to this conversation...
MANY members have stated that obedience is not mandatory, thus teaching that we can even live a life of sin and still be saved.

The verses donadams posted support the biblical teaching that BEHAVIOR IS IMPORTANT and those not
following the teachings of Jesus will not attain the Kingdom of God (either one).

Ephesians 5:5
5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


It is possible for a believer to RETURN to a life of sin, in which case he is in the same state as before salvation:


2 Peter 2:19-22
19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


And, I'd like to add that the bible does not speak of "true believers"....
One is a believer or he is not.