Sinless To Be Saved

[JesusFan]

yes agree justification and grace in Christ

A two sided coin!

On God’s side His promises are absolute and God will always be faithful!

2 Tim 2:13


Our side of the coin has an if!
A big “if”!

Rom 11:22
Col 1:21-23
Col 2-5
Heb 12:22-25
Heb 6:4-9
Heb 3:4-6
Jn 2:24-25
2 Tim 2:11-13
Rom 8:17
Matt 28:20
Acts 1:2
Jn 15:4
Mk 13:13
Matt 24:14

We still have free will and can choose (volition) to reject Christ and the faith and renounce our baptism

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Thks

The entire Trinity involved in saving lost sinners, as the Father sent the Son, elects those to get saved, the Son dies in their stead and rose again, and the Spirit convicts and seals unto redemption at second coming event

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
...
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (ESV)

Joh 18:9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” (ESV)

Jesus says that the will of the Father was that he wouldn't lose any of those given to him. John says that was fulfilled, after Judas had betrayed Jesus. Your argument essentially says that Jesus failed and John lied, perhaps to cover up that failure. Or, it could perhaps be argued that none of the disciples were truly saved at that point, especially since salvation is based on faith, not only in Christ, but in his death and resurrection.

Either way, it is not likely that Judas was ever saved.

Free, the whole Gospel of Mark emphasizes the unbelief of the disciples, even though they followed Jesus. How can that be? The Jews of that time believed that the Messiah would be an earthly ruler who would kick the Romans out of their land and rule on an earthly throne with his close followers as his advisors. Since the disciples were no different from the people of their time, it was only after they saw Jesus alive after his resurrection and he gave them the Holy Spirit that they realized the truth about the Messiah, Jesus, the God-man.

Thus, coming to Jesus (John 6:44) means more than traipsing around Palestine with him for three years, but it does mean repenting of our sins and surrendering to him our whole lives to accept his as the only way to the Father's approval.

 

[GodsGrace]

The entire Trinity involved in saving lost sinners, as the Father sent the Son, elects those to get saved, the Son dies in their stead and rose again, and the Spirit convicts and seals unto redemption at second coming event

JesusFan
Did you know that there are a few atonement theories?
Did you know that the Penal Substitution Theory is just one of them?

 

[Free]

Free, the whole Gospel of Mark emphasizes the unbelief of the disciples, even though they followed Jesus. How can that be? The Jews of that time believed that the Messiah would be an earthly ruler who would kick the Romans out of their land and rule on an earthly throne with his close followers as his advisors. Since the disciples were no different from the people of their time, it was only after they saw Jesus alive after his resurrection and he gave them the Holy Spirit that they realized the truth about the Messiah, Jesus, the God-man.

Thus, coming to Jesus (John 6:44) means more than traipsing around Palestine with him for three years, but it does mean repenting of our sins and surrendering to him our whole lives to accept his as the only way to the Father's approval.

I'm not sure what your point is and how it addresses my post.

 

[Free]

Yes sir.
But some do not.
They change what Jesus, or any other writer, to mean what THEY want it to mean.

Of course, and everyone thinks it is they that do not do that.

I like to read the bible simply.
If it's read in this way,,,,the bible will have no conflict...
otherwise it has many.

Many like to claim that about themselves; it's always the others that don't "like to read the Bible simply."

Yes. In Matthew 7:23 Jesus clearly stated who is NOT going to be with Him.

23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

The lawless,,,,those that do not follow Jesus' teachings,,,,will be told to depart from Him.

As I pointed out, it's those who did do things--"did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"--but he will say "I never knew you." That is, they did things, even in his name, but they weren't true believers.

This passage is essentially what James says in chapter 2. It's about works being the evidence that one is saved, not that works save.

I'd like to see some verses about God using "evidence"....

I have done so more than once. You deny it. There is nothing more I can do.

I suppose you mean that He will use our bad works against us....
If so, I agree.

This is why we cooperate with God and do good works.

Yes, we are judged for our works done as believers, whether good or bad. But, works never save; they are evidence to ourselves and others of whether or not we are saved. They serve as evidence at the final judgement, but also day-to-day, as evidence as to whether or not we're saved.

Which of your questions have I not replied to?
These posts have been going on for pages now.
You still have questions?

What are they?

I posted them several times and you have ignored them just as many times. I'm not going to play that game.

I didn't see any questions.

Yes, you did; you literally couldn't have missed them. You even quoted them more than once in expressing your refusal to answer them.

This topic is so important that this and Calvinism are the only two topics to which I devote time.

Calvinism isn't that important, but this one is. Teaching that our works keep us saved is the same as saying that our works saved us to being with. That is false and Paul has strong warnings for someone who teaches such a thing.

I DO believe I've made myself very clear using Jesus and Paul's teachings.

You have, and I have shown that what you have stated doesn't align with either of them.

How far back you wanna go Free?

If you have a serious question, please ask it...
otherwise this will be my last post regarding this.

That's fine because I have no idea what you're going on about with this. lol You started this particular diversion with gaslighting, so . . .

 

[Free]

The title of this thread is:
SINLESS TO BE SAVED

Here is what the OP stated:

If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God which is defined in the 66 books of the Bible.
Keeping the law of God means thinking, speaking and acting as God wants you to.
I am speaking about the moral law, not about the ceremonial law.
The moral law: Do not worship idols, do not steal, do not murder, do not wear women's clothes, do not commit fornication, do not eat blood, and many more.
The ceremonial law was fulfilled by Jesus, therefore no one should obey the ceremonial law. If someone still wants to keep the ceremonial law, he has fallen from grace (Gal 5:4).

Faith means keeping the law,
loving God means following the commandments,
being a Christian means to imitate Jesus.

Matthew 19:16-17, "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:18-20, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commandments."
1 John 3:6, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
Romans 6:1-2, "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

And yes, it's possible to keep the law of God, for Deuteronomy 30:11 says: "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach."
And yes, there were people who were perfect, for Job 1:1 says: "and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."


I fully agree with the OP.
Some do not.

No one should fully agree. It even begins with, "If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God which is defined in the 66 books of the Bible." But, that is a completely false gospel.

And, faith absolutely does not mean "keeping the law." Paul explicitly states more than once that keeping the law is opposed to faith:

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. (ESV)

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
...
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (ESV)

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (ESV)

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
…
Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (ESV)

You, and the OP, are trying to perfect yourselves "by the flesh," which is opposed to "by the Spirit" and by faith. It is, by Paul's definition, a different gospel.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)

Jesus did not speak, EVER, about someone not believing in Him to begin with.

If you have some verses, I'd really like to see them.
A few where Jesus states that the person did not obey Him because they were never really saved to begin with.

I want to drop this part of the discussion as it is too much of a distraction from what actually matters--justification, sanctification, and glorification, all of which are by grace through faith. Our works do not save us nor keep us saved; that is the work of the Holy Spirit. We obey and do good works, but those works do not save; they give evidence to us and those around us that we are saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course, and everyone thinks it is they that do not do that.


Many like to claim that about themselves; it's always the others that don't "like to read the Bible simply."


As I pointed out, it's those who did do things--"did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"--but he will say "I never knew you." That is, they did things, even in his name, but they weren't true believers.

Sorry. It doesn't say they were not true believers.
Again,,this is what it says... Read it plainly and simply:

Matthew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Depart from Me you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Jesus never knew them because they practiced lawlessness.

This passage is essentially what James says in chapter 2. It's about works being the evidence that one is saved, not that works save.


I have done so more than once. You deny it. There is nothing more I can do.


Yes, we are judged for our works done as believers, whether good or bad. But, works never save; they are evidence to ourselves and others of whether or not we are saved. They serve as evidence at the final judgement, but also day-to-day, as evidence as to whether or not we're saved.


I posted them several times and you have ignored them just as many times. I'm not going to play that game.


Yes, you did; you literally couldn't have missed them. You even quoted them more than once in expressing your refusal to answer them.


Calvinism isn't that important, but this one is. Teaching that our works keep us saved is the same as saying that our works saved us to being with.

It's not the same.
Works do not save.
But they keep us saved because God demands our obedience and that includes good works.


Calvinism is very important.
It changes the nature of God.
It removes hope from some that think God has not chosen them and so they are lost forever.
It allows some to just wait to see if God chooses them.

It's actually WORSE than OSAS.

You have, and I have shown that what you have stated doesn't align with either of them.


That's fine because I have no idea what you're going on about with this. lol You started this particular diversion with gaslighting, so . . .

I've said that this should end.
Especially since you're not grasping what I'm saying WITH SCRIPTURE.

 

[GodsGrace]

No one should fully agree. It even begins with, "If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God which is defined in the 66 books of the Bible." But, that is a completely false gospel.

You apparently did not read the entire OP, which states:

If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God which is defined in the 66 books of the Bible.
Keeping the law of God means thinking, speaking and acting as God wants you to.
I am speaking about the moral law, not about the ceremonial law.

Notice that the OP is addressing the MORAL LAW.
Do you not even agree that we are to keep the MORAL LAW??

The OP specifically states that he is NOT speaking about the ceremonial law.

And, faith absolutely does not mean "keeping the law." Paul explicitly states more than once that keeping the law is opposed to faith:

Agreed.

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Agreed.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

Agreed.

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Agreed.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Agreed.

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Agreed.

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Agreed.

Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Agreed.

Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Agreed. Please note that Paul is speaking about THE WORKS OF THE LAW. NOT good works.

Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. (ESV)

Agreed.

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Agreed. We are not saved by works. I do believe I've stated this repeatedly.

...
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Yes sir. The works of THE LAW.

Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (ESV)

Yes sir. The works of THE LAW.

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (ESV)

Agreed. Again, Paul is speaking about the WORKS OF THE LAW.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Again....works of THE LAW.

Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

WORKS OF THE LAW.

Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

Agreed. We are all justified by faith....just as in the OT.

Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Again, the WORKS OF THE LAW.

Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

page 2 of 2


Yes sir. No one is justified by the WORKS OF THE LAW.

Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”

Yes sir. All 613 of them.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

The curse of THE LAW.

Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
…
Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

To those who BELIEVE.
What a nasty word !
Such a little word with such a big meaning.

Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (ESV)

You, and the OP, are trying to perfect yourselves "by the flesh," which is opposed to "by the Spirit" and by faith. It is, by Paul's definition, a different gospel.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)

It just continues.
More of the same.

As to a different gospel
which one of us has the different gospel...
THAT is the question at hand.

I want to drop this part of the discussion as it is too much of a distraction from what actually matters--justification, sanctification, and glorification, all of which are by grace through faith. Our works do not save us nor keep us saved;

Sanctifciation is on-going and must cooperate with God's plan for us.
If we do NOT coooperate,,,sanctification dissipates...
If sanctification dissipates...
so does justification.
Must we discuss OSAS again??

Our works KEEP us saved because we are obeying God.

that is the work of the Holy Spirit. We obey and do good works, but those works do not save; they give evidence to us and those around us that we are saved.

No.
Those works keep us saved.

Jesus said so
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Paul said so
Romans 2:6-8
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


The above state that we will be judged by our good works....
thus not creating a conflict in the NT.
What you state creates a conflict in the NT.
Are we going to be judged by our good works or not?

Is Jesus wrong?
Is Paul wrong?

It would be nice if you exegeted those 2 verses and gave your understanding of them.
They do seem to be very clear, simple and plain.

 

[Free]

Sorry. It doesn't say they were not true believers.
Again,,this is what it says... Read it plainly and simply:

Matthew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Depart from Me you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Jesus never knew them because they practiced lawlessness.

So, what you're saying is, their lawless works were evidence they weren't saved, correct?

It's not the same.
Works do not save.
But they keep us saved because God demands our obedience and that includes good works.

...

I've said that this should end.
Especially since you're not grasping what I'm saying WITH SCRIPTURE.

I grasp full well what you're saying. I strongly disagree with what you're saying. You think you're simply sticking to Scripture, but you're not. You're taking things out of context and so pitting Scripture against itself. Our works do not keep us saved, they are evidence of whether or not we're saved. God saves us and keeps us saved; that is his work, not ours.

 

[Fish153]

Sorry. It doesn't say they were not true believers.
Again,,this is what it says... Read it plainly and simply:

Matthew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Depart from Me you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Jesus never knew them because they practiced lawlessness.


It's not the same.
Works do not save.
But they keep us saved because God demands our obedience and that includes good works.


Calvinism is very important.
It changes the nature of God.
It removes hope from some that think God has not chosen them and so they are lost forever.
It allows some to just wait to see if God chooses them.

It's actually WORSE than OSAS.

I've said that this should end.
Especially since you're not grasping what I'm saying WITH SCRIPTURE.

God'sGrace----

Yes--- it does show that they were NOT TRUE believers. How do we know this? Jesus says "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

But the Bible says : "Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, THE LORD KNOWS THEM THAT ARE HIS. And, let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". (2 Timothy 2:19)

This says clearly that the Lord KNOWS THEM THAT ARE HIS. But Matthew 7:22,23 says "I NEVER KNEW YOU" which means THEY WERE NEVER SAVED. Note also: Those who KNOW him are to depart from iniquity. Your works don't save you----you are saved TO DO GOOD WORKS.

 

[donadams]

The entire Trinity involved in saving lost sinners, as the Father sent the Son, elects those to get saved, the Son dies in their stead and rose again, and the Spirit convicts and seals unto redemption at second coming event

it is the sin of pride to say I'm saved and cannot be lost!

or I'm saved and there is Nothing more I need to do!

and a sin against charity!

at least worship Mary according to sacred scripture!

 

[Manasseh]

so you reject the eternal words of Jesus Christ?

and "all scripture is inspired"

even one word?

No, I reject your interpretation of His eternal words. All scripture is indeed inspired, you'll get no argument from me on that point. The same cannot be said for all interpretations. Such as yours.

Here is the verse you quoted, in context.

Matthew 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Christ is speaking about love and mercy and grace. The word "therefore" refers us back to his statements on how God the Father treats the just as well as the unjust with love. The "even as" in verse 48 means "in the same way".

Be ye therefore perfect " in the same way" your Heavenly Father is perfect.

Love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you etc. Just as God loves those who hate and persecute Him.

There are plenty of other verses which you could use to make your case for perfect obedience, this just isn't one of them.

There is nothing in this passage of scripture that even hints at sinless perfection.

But, I will allow that there are some among us who have been blessed with grace far above the measure given to the rest of us poor struggling sinners. They have conquered the flesh, walk in perpetual victory over self and sin, and live a life of complete and total obedience.

They would never reject the words of Christ, especially His clear and direct commands, for to do so would be sin. And they do not sin.

In verse 42, before speaking about how to love ones enemies, Christ had this to say.

Matthew 5:42
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

I've been a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ for over three decades. I have never asked another brother for a loan, or gone to a church for financial assistance. Not because I'm too proud to do so, but because I dare not tempt them to sin.

I'm four days from being homeless, because an elderly gentleman crashed my car, which I was using to drive for Lyft.

How about a loan brother?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Perfect obedience indeed.

I'm sorry, I just don't have time for this nonsensical debate. God is my Father, He is not in the abortion business. He will provide all my needs. My greatest need is that He wash me in His blood, guide me by His Holy Spirit, and make continual intercession for me at the right hand of the Father.

I "BELIEVE" that He is doing all of this on my behalf, because it must be done on my behalf. I cannot do it on my own.

1 John 1:5 - 2:6
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:



But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The Believer’s Assurance
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

What are His commandments?

To repent and believe.
My whole life through.

Believe what?

That my God is a merciful and loving Father, that His Son is my Redeemer and best friend. And that The Spirit of Christ lives within me.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Apparently, you do NOT believe Jesus.

What the Father has given to Jesus will be raised up
IF we endure to the end:

Jesus taught:

Matthew 10:22
22“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
Matthew 24:13
22“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Yes, GodsGrace, and those who do endure to the end are the ones whom the Father has given to Jesus and whom he will raise from the dead, according to Romans 8 and Ephesians 1:

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved....
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

I'm not sure what your point is and how it addresses my post.

Free, I'm supporting your supposition that none of the disciples were true believers at that point with my knowledge of the Gospel of Mark.

 

[JesusFan]

it is the sin of pride to say I'm saved and cannot be lost!

or I'm saved and there is Nothing more I need to do!

and a sin against charity!

at least worship Mary according to sacred scripture!

Mary worshipped her Son, the Savior as should we

 

[JesusFan]

JesusFan
Did you know that there are a few atonement theories?
Did you know that the Penal Substitution Theory is just one of them?

True, but it is the view held by Reformed and MANY Baptists like myself

 

[Free]

You apparently did not read the entire OP, which states:

If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God which is defined in the 66 books of the Bible.
Keeping the law of God means thinking, speaking and acting as God wants you to.
I am speaking about the moral law, not about the ceremonial law.

Notice that the OP is addressing the MORAL LAW.
Do you not even agree that we are to keep the MORAL LAW??

The OP specifically states that he is NOT speaking about the ceremonial law.

Which is not relevant. Any keeping of the law as a means to salvation--"If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God"--is a false gospel.

As to your question, "Do you not even agree that we are to keep the MORAL LAW??," you're taking me out of context just as you do the Scriptures. Take everything I say together and stop taking things out of context. I have stated numerous times that we obey God, but that our obedience does not save us.

Agreed.

Yet, you previously said "I fully agree with the OP." So, which is it? Do you agree with me and Paul or with the OP?

Agreed. Please note that Paul is speaking about THE WORKS OF THE LAW. NOT good works.

Same difference. Adding any works is a false gospel. You're actually implying that "good works" can justify us, which is something you claim to deny.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)

Agreed. We are not saved by works. I do believe I've stated this repeatedly.

Yes, you say that, but as I have pointed out several times, you have also said we are saved by works:

"our good works save us" (HERE); "What keeps us saved is obeying God to the best of our ability" (HERE); "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved" (HERE and HERE); "OBEDIENCE is NECESSARY for salvation" (HERE); and "Our works keep us saved" (HERE and HERE).

I've also pointed out that 'there is no difference between saying "works keep us saved" and "our works save us to begin with."' This is exactly what Paul is getting at in Gal. 3:3--"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

Yes sir. The works of THE LAW.

Yes sir. The works of THE LAW.

Agreed. Again, Paul is speaking about the WORKS OF THE LAW.

Again....works of THE LAW.

WORKS OF THE LAW.

But you said this:

"Notice that the OP is addressing the MORAL LAW.
Do you not even agree that we are to keep the MORAL LAW??"

That is a work of the Law.

Agreed. We are all justified by faith....just as in the OT.

Again, the WORKS OF THE LAW.

A work is a work is a work when it comes to salvation.

 

[JesusFan]

Which is not relevant. Any keeping of the law as a means to salvation--"If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God"--is a false gospel.

As to your question, "Do you not even agree that we are to keep the MORAL LAW??," you're taking me out of context just as you do the Scriptures. Take everything I say together and stop taking things out of context. I have stated numerous times that we obey God, but that our obedience does not save us.


Yet, you previously said "I fully agree with the OP." So, which is it? Do you agree with me and Paul or with the OP?


Same difference. Adding any works is a false gospel. You're actually implying that "good works" can justify us, which is something you claim to deny.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)


Yes, you say that, but as I have pointed out several times, you have also said we are saved by works:

"our good works save us" (HERE); "What keeps us saved is obeying God to the best of our ability" (HERE); "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved" (HERE and HERE); "OBEDIENCE is NECESSARY for salvation" (HERE); and "Our works keep us saved" (HERE and HERE).

I've also pointed out that 'there is no difference between saying "works keep us saved" and "our works save us to begin with."' This is exactly what Paul is getting at in Gal. 3:3--"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"


But you said this:

"Notice that the OP is addressing the MORAL LAW.
Do you not even agree that we are to keep the MORAL LAW??"

That is a work of the Law.


A work is a work is a work when it comes to salvation.

Those who seek to be justified in sight of God by any Law keeping, by any works have fallen from grace, are relying uon a false gospel to save them

 

[donadams]

Mary worshipped her Son, the Savior as should we

you don't think scripture says to worship Mary?