Sinless To Be Saved

[Free]

you don't think scripture says to worship Mary?

No, it absolutely does not. That would be blasphemy.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

you don't think scripture says to worship Mary?

I don't, donadams. Where do you find such a command in the Bible?

 

[JesusFan]

you don't think scripture says to worship Mary?

No, we are to worship ONLY God

 

[Fish153]

you don't think scripture says to worship Mary?

Absolutely not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Those who seek to be justified in sight of God by any Law keeping, by any works have fallen from grace, are relying uon a false gospel to save them

I sure do hope Free sees this.

It sounds like you don't believe in law keeping...
any works.
and if we do works we will have fallen from grace.

You're making the statemen that this is a false gospel.

I wonder if you're aware that all Jesus did for over 3 years was to teach that we are to
behave a certain way, do good works that are pleasing to God...and obey His commandments.

You did say ANY law keeping...this includes good works.

So tell us JesusFan....
What do YOU think Jesus preached for over 3 years?

NOT keeping His law.
NOT doing good works.
NOT behaving as God would want us to?

 

[GodsGrace]

God'sGrace----

Yes--- it does show that they were NOT TRUE believers. How do we know this? Jesus says "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

But the Bible says : "Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, THE LORD KNOWS THEM THAT ARE HIS. And, let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". (2 Timothy 2:19)

This says clearly that the Lord KNOWS THEM THAT ARE HIS. But Matthew 7:22,23 says "I NEVER KNEW YOU" which means THEY WERE NEVER SAVED. Note also: Those who KNOW him are to depart from iniquity. Your works don't save you----you are saved TO DO GOOD WORKS.

I've already replied to the above.

YOU have not shown where it states that "they" were not true believers.
Sorry, but I don't see this statement anywhere.

The reason we have a problem in our faith is because some read into what the plain scripture states.

Let's try again:

Matthew 7:21-23
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


Now let's see if we can answer these questions:

1. Who will enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

2. Why were some not allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[GodsGrace]

So, what you're saying is, their lawless works were evidence they weren't saved, correct?


I grasp full well what you're saying. I strongly disagree with what you're saying. You think you're simply sticking to Scripture, but you're not. You're taking things out of context and so pitting Scripture against itself. Our works do not keep us saved, they are evidence of whether or not we're saved. God saves us and keeps us saved; that is his work, not ours.

No.
What I'm saying is that you're adding words to scripture.
Jesus said NOTHING about being saved or not being saved.

Here, again, is what Jesus stated:


Matthew 7:21-23
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


I'll ask you the same questions I just asked another member:

1. Who will enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

2. Why were some not allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[GodsGrace]

True, but it is the view held by Reformed and MANY Baptists like myself

I know this and can't remember why you're posting this and don't really care to discuss it anyway...
if you want to proceed, you'll have to bring me up to date...been too busy. Sorry.

 

[GodsGrace]

Which is not relevant. Any keeping of the law as a means to salvation--"If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God"--is a false gospel.

As to your question, "Do you not even agree that we are to keep the MORAL LAW??," you're taking me out of context just as you do the Scriptures. Take everything I say together and stop taking things out of context. I have stated numerous times that we obey God, but that our obedience does not save us.


Yet, you previously said "I fully agree with the OP." So, which is it? Do you agree with me and Paul or with the OP?


Same difference. Adding any works is a false gospel. You're actually implying that "good works" can justify us, which is something you claim to deny.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)


Yes, you say that, but as I have pointed out several times, you have also said we are saved by works:

"our good works save us" (HERE); "What keeps us saved is obeying God to the best of our ability" (HERE); "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved" (HERE and HERE); "OBEDIENCE is NECESSARY for salvation" (HERE); and "Our works keep us saved" (HERE and HERE).

I've also pointed out that 'there is no difference between saying "works keep us saved" and "our works save us to begin with."' This is exactly what Paul is getting at in Gal. 3:3--"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"


But you said this:

"Notice that the OP is addressing the MORAL LAW.
Do you not even agree that we are to keep the MORAL LAW??"

That is a work of the Law.

You believe that keeping the MORAL LAW is a work of THE LAW?

I have nothing further to discuss.

Your statements are not in keeping with what Jesus taught.
You are misleading many Christians, both new and old that have this odd belief that we are not required to obey God or do good works......

In one sentence you say you agree that we are to do good works....
In the next sentence you state that keeping the Moral Law is a work of THE LAW.

Very confusing indeed.

 

[JesusFan]

No.
What I'm saying is that you're adding words to scripture.
Jesus said NOTHING about being saved or not being saved.

Here, again, is what Jesus stated:


Matthew 7:21-23
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


I'll ask you the same questions I just asked another member:

1. Who will enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

2. Why were some not allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven?

All who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior thru faith alone
All of them were still lost sinners, profess jesus as Lord, but were never saved by Him, all were as Judas

 

[JesusFan]

You believe that keeping the MORAL LAW is a work of THE LAW?

I have nothing further to discuss.

Your statements are not in keeping with what Jesus taught.
You are misleading many Christians, both new and old that have this odd belief that we are not required to obey God or do good works......

In one sentence you say you agree that we are to do good works....
In the next sentence you state that keeping the Moral Law is a work of THE LAW.

Very confusing indeed.

Good works are fruit evidence of having already been saved, but NOT part of getting saved

 

[JesusFan]

I sure do hope Free sees this.

It sounds like you don't believe in law keeping...
any works.
and if we do works we will have fallen from grace.

You're making the statemen that this is a false gospel.

I wonder if you're aware that all Jesus did for over 3 years was to teach that we are to
behave a certain way, do good works that are pleasing to God...and obey His commandments.

You did say ANY law keeping...this includes good works.

So tell us JesusFan....
What do YOU think Jesus preached for over 3 years?

NOT keeping His law.
NOT doing good works.
NOT behaving as God would want us to?

No, stating that good works have NO part in getting us saved, those who hold to must keep the Jewish Sabbath, must be water baptized a certain way/mode. must speak in other tongues etc all hold to another and false gospel

 

[GodsGrace]

All who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior thru faith alone
All of them were still lost sinners, profess jesus as Lord, but were never saved by Him, all were as Judas

Very intereting JesusFan

But you didn't reply to the questions at hand:

Matthew 7:21-23
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


I'll ask you the same questions I just asked another member: (He didn't reply either BTW,,,,must be tough questions)

1. Who will enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

2. Why were some not allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[GodsGrace]

Good works are fruit evidence of having already been saved, but NOT part of getting saved

YOU said that keeping the MORAL LAW is works.

IOW,,,,obeying Jesus is "works".

Let me ask again....
What do you believe Jesus taught for over 3 years of preaching/teaching?

Let's clarify:
The unsaved do not need to keep the MORAL LAW...
believers are required to keep the Moral Law.

Or, maybe, they're not - according to you.

Could you post some scripture please?

 

[GodsGrace]

No, stating that good works have NO part in getting us saved, those who hold to must keep the Jewish Sabbath, must be water baptized a certain way/mode. must speak in other tongues etc all hold to another and false gospel

Did I state that we must work to become saved?
No. I did not.
Every Christian believes that we are saved by FAITH ALONE....
just as Ephesians 2:8-9 states.

However, Ephesians 2:10 states that we are saved FOR good works.

So...
Is a believer supposed to follow/obey the Moral Law or not?
Are we supposed to do good works for God's Kingdom or not?

 

[Free]

You believe that keeping the MORAL LAW is a work of THE LAW?

Is the moral law a part of the Law?

I have nothing further to discuss.

Okay.

Your statements are not in keeping with what Jesus taught.

They very much are in keeping with what Jesus taught, which I have shown repeatedly. Context matters.

You are misleading many Christians, both new and old that have this odd belief that we are not required to obey God or do good works......

How am I "misleading many Christians"? What do those who "have this odd belief that we are not required to obey God or do good works" have to do with anything? No one in this thread is making that claim, as I have pointed out a few times previously.

In one sentence you say you agree that we are to do good works....

In context, which for some reason you seem to what to continually ignore, I have repeatedly stated that we are to do good works, that we'll want to do good works, as evidence that we are saved, but that those works will never save us. They don't save us initially and they don't keep us saved; there is no essential difference between those two claims.

In the next sentence you state that keeping the Moral Law is a work of THE LAW.

You are advocating keeping the moral law, are you not? Is that a work of the law?

Very confusing indeed.

Not at all.

 

[donadams]

No, it absolutely does not. That would be blasphemy.

only if you don't know what worship means!

you assume it only means latria adoration due to God alone!
actually it means to give honor where honor is due rom 13:7

Mary found our salvation Lk 1:30
Mary consented to our salvation Lk 1:38
Mary believed God Lk 1:45
Mary gave birth to our salvation Lk 2:11

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

 

[donadams]

Light of Christ passing thru Mary (like a prism) causes graces to be multiplied unto us Her spiritual children! Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17

Lk 1:46 My soul doth magnify the Lord!

 

[donadams]

I don't, donadams. Where do you find such a command in the Bible?

see 517 please

 

[donadams]

No, we are to worship ONLY God

see 517 please