James 2 And OSAS - Part 2

[smaller]

One of my messages was deleted WIP, and if you think this questions is not appropriate, please say why?

I asked DadO and anyone else who does not adhere to the OSAS position if their 'POSITION' entails that we must believe that we might not be saved in order to be saved.

I hope you understand this is positional and has zero to do with personal commentary.

s

No.

So, for the record you believe then that we who adhere to OSAS are not damned because we do not adhere to having to believe that we might not be saved in order to be saved?

Is this correct?

?

 

[gr8grace]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

But Paul says you have to have the 'flower' of belief to the end in order to saved:

"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,†so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)

"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)

Well, that brings us to 'point 2' in these matters.

IF you are raising the standard of 'belief,' however fleeting it may be, what 'constitutes proof?'

I tell you what. Since you are asking this question directly of the scriptures I quoted, you answer your own question first. Then I'll share my answer, okay?

So, tell us, smaller, "what constitutes the proof of believing that the two scriptures I posted talks about?".

1~~ Moreover, brethren,
I made known to you the gospel/'good news' . . .
which I preached unto you - to your advantage -
which also you have received straight from me,
and wherein you stand in the past and you keep on standing forever!

Preaching is conversation. Prophesizing at this time was public teaching.

2~~ Through which {gospel} you received salvation . . .
by which word, I preached unto you . . .
if you hold fast the norm . . .
or let us assume {to prove it false} . . .
you have believed for no purpose.

Note: Paul is starting to use the "debater's technique" - to assume a falsehood is true to prove it false.

This verse IS about losing salvation and how foolish it is to believe that one can lose it or has not obtained it through Faith.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Heb 3:12-14~~Is not about salvation. It is about entering His rest or super grace. The promised land(Psalm 95) represents super grace. Israel, being stubborn and always unbelieving STILL entered Gods rest and the Promised land. However, Moses did NOT make it! Was Moses unsaved then? Loss of personal salvation is not in view.

 

[George Muller]

On topic:

Where is OSAS in James' letter?

Since I suggest it's NOT there (but perhaps suggested in other places), it's easy to dispose of that doctrine in favor of sola fida in James' letter...the point of this thread.

Perhaps dadof10's goal was to try to focus on the sola fida part, but I'm the odd ball in the Protestant camp that isn't on board with OSAS, so I put the focus there. And, truthfully, perhaps our differences about sola fida aren't as serious as we at first thought.

Well I am not sure what some consider OSAS, and "sola fida" is explain in the scriptures, not by mans traditions. The issue I would raise with those who want to "unsave" others, is that they have no authority to "save" or to "unsave". If God has chosen to "save" what man or religious group can come against His Will?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

What pride some must have, to attempt to take from Gods hands, that which He has reached out in His Mercy to save?

 

[Deborah13]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

[MENTION=3759]dadof10[/MENTION]

Did Abraham not doubt (just a little tiny bit) when he took Hagar? If anyone says they have not had times of doubt big or small, I would have to think, hmmm.....I am a bigger heathen, then even I thought!

Now I don't see Abraham doubting what God said as backsliding, there is a difference. However, doubt can lead to backsliding. As can being self centered, what is sin but self-centeredness? I want what I want. I see backsliding as immaturity. One can be a Christian for many years and still be immature in their understanding. I also see that one can have things happen in their lives that they can't reconcile with a loving Father and they regress in their faith. But that does not mean they have rejected the Savior. There are many scenarios in life.

"I think this act of doubt or even unbelief, broke communion with God, so Abraham had to be restored to God's good graces, which he did in Gen. 15. This is a Biblical example of justification as a process, not a one time event. Abraham AGAIN had to "believe God", that He could do what He said, in order to be justified. If he had continued to doubt, he wouldn't have been justified."

This is where we differ. I don't see Abraham as breaking communion with God. He wasn't rejecting God as his Lord and I don't see where God took it that way either. Were there some bad consequences in Abraham's life because of it? Yes. But I don't see God rejected Abraham. I could be wrong, I haven't read that scripture in awhile. Correct me if I'm wrong. Did God quit blessing him? I need to go back and read again....
I think Abraham went through the same sanctification process we do, but he didn't loose his salvation when he messed up anymore than we do.
God walked Abraham through this process to the point that he was willing to sacrifice Isaac. This type of faith does not just happen, there are ups and downs, overs and unders. I believe God allows us to do stupid things in order to build faith. If we never messed up how would we learn? Some kids are just good kids and always believe their parents and others have to mess up to believe. Do we throw them out in the snow. What would make us think that we are better parents than our Father in heaven?

 

[smaller]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

Did Abraham not doubt (just a little tiny bit) when he took Hagar? If anyone says they have not had times of doubt big or small, I would have to think, hmmm.....I am a bigger heathen, then even I thought!

Paul actually teaches at length on the above matter.

Abraham had two sons. One son of the flesh. One son of the promise.

Those two sons are actually a picture of Abraham as well, as in Abram, the old man when he had a son of the flesh, Ishmael, and Abraham, the NEW MAN, who received the son of the promise, Isaac.

It's quite a beautiful picture of the Gospel preached to Abraham and the 'two covenants.' The covenants were not about Ishmael and Isaac, but about Abram to Abraham. About the blinded us and the new us. About our 'division' from our 'enemy,' the son of the flesh, the blinded pawn of satan.

Doncha love The Word?

Paul was a Spiritual Genius. Well, I should say whoever taught him was...;)

s

 

[JLB]

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


How can someone forsake or defect from Christianity if they have not for been Christian.


Peter said the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul, not the beginning!

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.


Jesus said those who endure to the end would be saved.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

[MENTION=3759]dadof10[/MENTION]

I just found another OT example of not listening to God, did Josiah loose his salvation?

2 Chronicles 35
KJV
20 After all this, when Josiah had prepared the temple, Necho king of Egypt came up to fight against Charchemish by Euphrates: and Josiah went out against him.
21 But he sent ambassadors to him, saying, What have I to do with thee, thou king of Judah? I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith I have war: for God commanded me to make haste: forbear thee from meddling with God, who is with me, that he destroy thee not.
22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.

Josiah was killed in this battle. Don't know if he repented or not. Need to read more, maybe you know?

 

[Deborah13]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

It's quite a beautiful picture of the Gospel preached to Abraham and the 'two covenants.' The covenants were not about Ishmael and Isaac, but about Abram to Abraham. About the blinded us and the new us. About our 'division' from our 'enemy,' the son of the flesh, the blinded pawn of satan.

Genesis 17:5
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.


In the Hebrew, which I can't make the symbols, Abram would = the ox, house, head, and mem (in the context, as the end letter I believe).
In the Hebrew, Abraham looks like = ox, house, head, window (hei), mem (end letter)

The 'hei' was added to both Abraham and Sarah. I have heard, that the Jews say it is like being inside looking out a window at a mystery. I believe it is the 'mystery' of God's grace.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So many posts!
So many viewpoints!
I'm so confused!

 

[MarkT]

Originally Posted by MarkT

It doesn't say they went to hell or that they died in unbelief.

Uh, yes, it does. If we can't read the fact o that there is little point trying to move past that fact.

Are you talking about the people of Israel or Moses and Aaron who led the people of Israel out of Egypt?
Yes, Moses and Aaron. IN fact Aaron had quite an interesting death. Quite interesting. And you can include everyone over the age of 20 who all died in the desert because of UNbelief except 2 people out of a total of a possible couple million. (and please don't turn this into a math accuracy quest on the total numbers.)

Are you talking about the people or the servant of God who was punished on their account. Read Psalms 105-106 Psalm 106:32 'They angered him at the waters of Mer'ibah and it went ill with Moses.' The Bible doesn't say Moses fell into unbelief. The unbelievers were the people of Israel. That's who Jude is talking about.
I just cited you scripture a couple times now that they BELIEVED NOT, which is unbelief.

What seems to be the problem here?

You know the factual observation made was meant to jamb the gears of the NON OSAS position and jamb it does, obviously.

'You did not believe in me' suggests a lack of faith, not unbelief. Or are you saying Moses and Aaron did not believe they were talking to the LORD? Moses' entire generation was destroyed for their unbelief. Yes. But the Bible doesn't say Moses and Aaron fell into unbelief. It doesn't say they acted immorally. And it doesn't say Moses and Aaron were not saved from the anger of the LORD. The Bible says Moses questioned the LORD. The people put the LORD to the proof. So that entire generation was destroyed

The LORD said, 'Because you did not believe in me.' Saying 'you did not believe in me' suggests a lack of faith, not unbelief. Unbelief is the opposite of what Paul said. Unbelievers do not believe in the Father or the Son. They do not believe in the things they can not see.

Regarding Moses and Aaron, the Bible says they did not sanctify the LORD in the eyes of the people ie. their work was no good. You can argue what sanctify means, but bottom line, it was their job. They didn't do it. Score one for works and faith.

 

[George Muller]

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


How can someone forsake or defect from Christianity if they have not for been Christian.


Peter said the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul, not the beginning!

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.


Jesus said those who endure to the end would be saved.


JLB

People can "fall away" from alot of things, such as sound doctrine. But put these scriptures in their context and one can see they do not intend to "unsave" anyone, nor to suggest the loss of salvation.
As a matter of fact, those who make these claims, have little real understanding of what happens at salvation? The flesh is not saved, and by the weakness of the flesh, no one can lose their salvation.

 

[George Muller]

Originally Posted by MarkT

It doesn't say they went to hell or that they died in unbelief.

Uh, yes, it does. If we can't read the fact o that there is little point trying to move past that fact.

Are you talking about the people of Israel or Moses and Aaron who led the people of Israel out of Egypt?
Yes, Moses and Aaron. IN fact Aaron had quite an interesting death. Quite interesting. And you can include everyone over the age of 20 who all died in the desert because of UNbelief except 2 people out of a total of a possible couple million. (and please don't turn this into a math accuracy quest on the total numbers.)

Are you talking about the people or the servant of God who was punished on their account. Read Psalms 105-106 Psalm 106:32 'They angered him at the waters of Mer'ibah and it went ill with Moses.' The Bible doesn't say Moses fell into unbelief. The unbelievers were the people of Israel. That's who Jude is talking about.
I just cited you scripture a couple times now that they BELIEVED NOT, which is unbelief.

What seems to be the problem here?

You know the factual observation made was meant to jamb the gears of the NON OSAS position and jamb it does, obviously.

'You did not believe in me' suggests a lack of faith, not unbelief. Or are you saying Moses and Aaron did not believe they were talking to the LORD? Moses' entire generation was destroyed for their unbelief. Yes. But the Bible doesn't say Moses and Aaron fell into unbelief. It doesn't say they acted immorally. And it doesn't say Moses and Aaron were not saved from the anger of the LORD. The Bible says Moses questioned the LORD. The people put the LORD to the proof. So that entire generation was destroyed

The LORD said, 'Because you did not believe in me.' Saying 'you did not believe in me' suggests a lack of faith, not unbelief. Unbelief is the opposite of what Paul said. Unbelievers do not believe in the Father or the Son. They do not believe in the things they can not see.

Regarding Moses and Aaron, the Bible says they did not sanctify the LORD in the eyes of the people ie. their work was no good. You can argue what sanctify means, but bottom line, it was their job. They didn't do it. Score one for works and faith.

Yes and what happened? The "old generation" was marched around the mountain until they died. The "New generation" entered into the promised land.

2Co 5:16 ¶ Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This Paul points out over and over that those who walk in the flesh cannot "inherit" the kingdom..the land, but those who walk in the Spirit inherit the promises of God.

Just as the older generation represented those who walk in the flesh, the new generation represent those who walk in the spirit. The old man must be crucified with Christ and then a believer must walk in the newness of the spirit.
These are not sciptures that one could use to "unsave" a believer, but they do have power as to the truth of receiving of Gods Kingdom and the rewards of that are given to those who are faithful.

 

[gr8grace]

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


How can someone forsake or defect from Christianity if they have not for been Christian.


Peter said the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul, not the beginning!

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.


Jesus said those who endure to the end would be saved.


JLB

People can "fall away" from alot of things, such as sound doctrine. But put these scriptures in their context and one can see they do not intend to "unsave" anyone, nor to suggest the loss of salvation.
As a matter of fact, those who make these claims, have little real understanding of what happens at salvation? The flesh is not saved, and by the weakness of the flesh, no one can lose their salvation.

I agree. The falling away is actually the world has become so hardened that no one will believe any more. We see a lot of it Here on a Christian Site!

2 Thess 2:1-3 We have a "falling away and THEN the man of sin is revealed. In 2 Thess 2:7-8 paul tells us that the restrainer has to be removed BEFORE the lawless one is revealed.

So the "falling away" is in direct relationship to the "restrainer being removed"......the rapture of the Church.
~~~~~~
1 Pet 1:9 is simple.
9~~ Having received back with interest,
the ultimate destiny of your faith,
even the salvation of your souls.
~~~~~~~~
Matt 24:13 Is talking tribulation and physical deliverance.

{Deliverance to the Mature Believer - 'One who 'endures to the end'}
24:13~~"But, in contrast, the believer who endures to the end {through Bible doctrine} {hupomeno} will be {physically} delivered {Zechariah 14:1-4; Isaiah 63:1-6}."

'Hupomeno' does mean one who 'endures to the end' means the end of the Tribulation. From Philippians, we also learn that the one who 'endures to the end' is the sign of a mature believer - he seizes and HOLDS the high ground to the end. And God delivers mature believers either through adversity or out from adversity.

We all are saved at the moment we believe in Christ. Acts 16:31

 

[MarkT]

Well I guess we disagree on the solution?

You keep saying that but I really don't think any of us as Christians would disagree that the Law is against sin and evil and that we are against sin and evil as well. I really don't know why you'd disagree with that.

Where we seem to fall off the agreement cart is where you think that Grace made us sinless, and that never happened.

s

Of course it did. That which is flesh is sinful, I agree, but that which is spirit is in Christ and there is no sin in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, regarding this one JB, does your position[!] entail having to believe that we might be lost in order to be saved?

Honestly, you'll have to break that down and explain it to me. (I'm really not that sharp. Remember, I'm Jethro Bodine) Then I'll tell you what I think about it.

Jethro


...oh, but I can shoot flies off a wall at 100 yards.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

MarkT,

In regard to Romans 11, I don't believe for a moment that any one Jew who died in unbelief is going to inherit the kingdom, but that is what I have to believe if I interpret Paul's passage about the tree and it's branches according to what you wrote in part 1.

Israel as a whole--those who are alive when Christ returns--will indeed come to faith in Christ and be grafted back into the vine. I don't see how this means individual Jews who died in unbelief will be grafted back in.

Overall, God does keep his promise to the descendants of Abraham, meaning those who are of the faith of Abraham. The operative word there being 'faith', not salvation in spite of unbelief. That's completely contrary to the gospel message.

Where there is breath there is hope (a chocolate kiss to anyone who remembers where that is--Amos?). Any person who once believed, but is in unbelief now, can potentially come back to faith in God. I don't condemn them. But if they die in that unbelief...it's over. The grafting back in is the grafting back in of living Jews who come to faith in Christ, not all deceased Jews who rejected him but are somehow grafted back in in spite of their unbelief in the promise.

 

[smaller]

So, regarding this one JB, does your position[!] entail having to believe that we might be lost in order to be saved?

Honestly, you'll have to break that down and explain it to me. (I'm really not that sharp. Remember, I'm Jethro Bodine) Then I'll tell you what I think about it.

Jethro


...oh, but I can shoot flies off a wall at 100 yards.

It's a simple enough question.

I asked you if your theological position is that believers must believe that God in Christ might not save them in order to be saved?

s

 

[MarkT]

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


How can someone forsake or defect from Christianity if they have not for been Christian.

False teachers, false prophets, false teachings, false words. What you end up with is Christians who are not Christians and never were Christians.

 

[dadof10]

One of my messages was deleted WIP, and if you think this questions is not appropriate, please say why?

I asked DadO and anyone else who does not adhere to the OSAS position if their 'POSITION' entails that we must believe that we might not be saved in order to be saved.

I hope you understand this is positional and has zero to do with personal commentary.

s

No.

So, for the record you believe then that we who adhere to OSAS are not damned because we do not adhere to having to believe that we might not be saved in order to be saved?

Is this correct?

?

Smaller, if you would like to discuss the meaning of the term "anathema" and what it exactly entails, all you have to do is take me up on my offer to debate one on one, that way I can post from CATHOLIC sources and straighten out your laughable misconceptions . Nice try. This ain't my first rodeo.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[dadof10]

[MENTION=3759]dadof10[/MENTION]

I just found another OT example of not listening to God, did Josiah loose his salvation?

2 Chronicles 35
KJV
20 After all this, when Josiah had prepared the temple, Necho king of Egypt came up to fight against Charchemish by Euphrates: and Josiah went out against him.
21 But he sent ambassadors to him, saying, What have I to do with thee, thou king of Judah? I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith I have war: for God commanded me to make haste: forbear thee from meddling with God, who is with me, that he destroy thee not.
22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.

Josiah was killed in this battle. Don't know if he repented or not. Need to read more, maybe you know?

I don't know. I do know the example of Abraham shows that justification is a process, which kinda blows the concept of OSAS out of the water.

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