Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Rollo Tamasi]

Because he had faith. Faith is the surety of salvation. Lose your faith and you no longer have the surety of salvation.

Your words are a far cry from the truth.
Psalm 23:6 NIV
"...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
This is Scripture, God's word.
It is 100% true.
It doesn't say only if you keep your faith.
What it says is a fact.
If David lost his faith after he wrote this verse, then it would no longer be true if he were to lose his salvation.
What you're saying is that Davids' faith decides whether God's word is true or not.
God doesn't need Davids' faith to decide whether his word is true or not.
It is true, period, regardless of what David does.

So I'll go back to my original question, "How did David know the end result if OSAS is not true?

 

[agua.]

Out of this post I've taken the scriptures that refer to specific people if that's ok .

2 Timothy 4:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Are you saying this means Demus will be tossed into the LoF and if so how do you know this ?

Acts 8:18-23 ing James Version (KJV)
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Are you suggesting this Simon was a believer and if so how do you know ? Also if he was a believer I'm not sure how this passage shows he has lost salvation.

2 Timothy 2:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Notice Paul had already turned Hymenaeus over to satan because of his blashemous teaching.

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

We're told earlier that this process of turning someone, who is in unrepentant sin, over to satan is to destroy the flesh so that they may be saved.

1Co 5:5 KJV To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Timothy 5:11-15 King James Version (KJV)
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

Take a look at the word "damnation" ( G2917 krima ) here. This same word is used to describe the fate of a believer who incorrectly discerns the Body of Christ by willfully sinning against a Brother or Sister.

1Co 11:29-32 KJV For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation ( G2917 krima ) to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

This damnation is judgement in this life so that we will not be condemned with the world. ie. it doesn't imply loss of salvation.


Do you have a scripture which tells us that a true believer lost their salvation ? ie. a person who is said to be of true faith and then is said to be bound for the LoF ?

 

[agua.]

The unmerciful servant. And everyone of the '2nd soil' persuasion in the parable of the soil Jesus taught. They represent the 'every man' of those who forfeit God's forgiveness after they receive it.

And Paul plainly says you remain reconciled to God IF you continue in your faith, not by just securing a one-time, no matter what salvation.

Yeah I agree the unmerciful servant will be headed for the LoF. Do you have a scripture which shows us such a person; I mean if this is something that can happen to a true believer I suggest we would have an example.

 

[agua.]

Exodus 32
33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Psalm 69
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Gday Gaz,

Are you sure the referneces to books here is the same as the Book of Life in Rev ? I'm not saying they aren't the same but I've found in the OT sometimes Earthly ideas are types of Spiritual ones in the NT. ie. the Books referenced here may possibly be refering to the physical lives of the wicked in the OT. I haven't researched this fully yet what do you think ?

 

[eddif]

agua
You are doing a pretty good job at this.

If the whole church is involved in helping each other, then salvation is more secure. If you see a brother overtaken in a sin (not just commit a sin, but consumed with an area of sin; to the extent that he is headed to divorcing himself / herself from God) then church discipline begins. Just a visit by a spiritual brother may restore the falling away person. Two or more people may be needed to stop the problem in severe cases. The worst cases take the turning over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, but this has restoration in mind. Jude shows fear needed at times.

For some reason we put salvation totally in the hands of the individual, but church discipline involves others.

Moses interceded for Israel.
Arron interced for Israel
Jesus intercedes for us

The NT helps restoration.

eddif

 

[agua.]

agua
You are doing a pretty good job at this.

If the whole church is involved in helping each other, then salvation is more secure. If you see a brother overtaken in a sin (not just commit a sin, but consumed with an area of sin; to the extent that he is headed to divorcing himself / herself from God) then church discipline begins. Just a visit by a spiritual brother may restore the falling away person. Two or more people may be needed to stop the problem in severe cases. The worst cases take the turning over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, but this has restoration in mind. Jude shows fear needed at times.

For some reason we put salvation totally in the hands of the individual, but church discipline involves others.

Moses interceded for Israel.
Arron interced for Israel
Jesus intercedes for us

The NT helps restoration.

eddif

Yeah many today think disciplining our Brothers and Sisters is wrongly judging them when in fact it's the loving thing to do. You're spot on with the correct procedure when a Brother is overtaken by a sin [Off topic. Concerns about staff management are to be brought to the TWTS forum]

 

[Dustoftheearth]

The unmerciful servant.

I find it very difficult to link this unmerciful servant parable (Matt 18) with that of salvation?

This man was (present tense) a servant of the King.

Do you suggest that we get saved and then have to settle our accounts with our Saviour King, and if we cannot settle the account, we (and our family) are then in danger of being sold?

Do you believe that this debt (for the purpose of salvation) can ever be repaid as Jesus said?

These torturers, who do you think they me be?

 

[veryberry]

I find it very difficult to link this unmerciful servant parable (Matt 18) with that of salvation?

This man was (present tense) a servant of the King.

Do you suggest that we get saved and then have to settle our accounts with our Saviour King, and if we cannot settle the account, we (and our family) are then in danger of being sold?

Do you believe that this debt (for the purpose of salvation) can ever be repaid as Jesus said?

These torturers, who do you think they me be?

That's because, not one parable Jesus taught pertains to the body of Christ.

2 Cor 5:16 - Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

In fact, we don't get any doctrine from Jesus's earthly ministry. We get our Doctrine from Paul as he preaches Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.(Romans - Philemon). Hebrews- Revelation is doctrine for the little flock(remnant of Israel) who will be going through Daniels 70th week.

 

[Butch5]

Your words are a far cry from the truth.
Psalm 23:6 NIV
"...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
This is Scripture, God's word.
It is 100% true.
It doesn't say only if you keep your faith.
What it says is a fact.
If David lost his faith after he wrote this verse, then it would no longer be true if he were to lose his salvation.
What you're saying is that Davids' faith decides whether God's word is true or not.
God doesn't need Davids' faith to decide whether his word is true or not.
It is true, period, regardless of what David does.

So I'll go back to my original question, "How did David know the end result if OSAS is not true?

Hi Allen,

Forever may not be the correct interpretation. Comparing different translations revealed there is some question about this. Look at other versions and check how they translate the passage. Here is Young's literal translation.

YLT Psalm 23:6 Only -- goodness and kindness pursue me, All the days of my life, And my dwelling is in the house of Jehovah, For a length of days! (Psa 23:6 YLT)

NET Psalm 23:6 Surely your goodness and faithfulness6 will pursue7 me all my days,8 and I will live in9 the LORD's house10 for the rest of my life.11 (Psa 23:6 NET)

CJB Psalm 23:6 Goodness and grace will pursue me every day of my life; and I will live in the house of ADONAI for years and years to come. (Psa 23:6 CJB)

KJV Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. {for ever: Heb. to length of days}
(Psa 23:6 KJV)

LXE Psalm 23:5 {022:5} Thou has prepared a table before me in presence of them that afflict me: thou hast thoroughly anointed my head with oil; and thy cup cheers me like the best wine. 6 {022:6} Thy mercy also shall follow me all the days of my life: and my dwelling shall be in the house of the Lord for a very long time. (Psa 23:5 LXE)

 

[Butch5]

That's because, not one parable Jesus taught pertains to the body of Christ.

2 Cor 5:16 - Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

In fact, we don't get any doctrine from Jesus's earthly ministry. We get our Doctrine from Paul as he preaches Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.(Romans - Philemon). Hebrews- Revelation is doctrine for the little flock(remnant of Israel) who will be going through Daniels 70th week.

"In fact, we don't get any doctrine from Jesus's earthly ministry"

Huh? What about the Great Commission?

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations} 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat 28:1 KJV)

The word translated "nations" is "ethnos" and it translated Gentiles.

 

[veryberry]

"In fact, we don't get any doctrine from Jesus's earthly ministry"

Huh? What about the Great Commission?

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations} 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat 28:1 KJV)

The word translated "nations" is "ethnos" and it translated Gentiles.

Yes, Jesus told the 12 to teach and Baptize according to the gospel of the kingdom. What did Jesus tell Paul?

1 Cor 1:17 - For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul was not sent on this so called "Great Commission". Paul preached an entirely different gospel. Paul preached Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.

Who was Paul sent by? Jesus Christ...

 

[jonahmano]

This damnation is judgement in this life so that we will not be condemned with the world. ie. it doesn't imply loss of salvation.

Do you have a scripture which tells us that a true believer lost their salvation ? ie. a person who is said to be of true faith and then is said to be bound for the LoF ?

Great that you agree that chastisement of God for our backsliding and that too I agree with an encouragement. Now if you say that that all the characters in the scriptures I have quoted will not go to hell then it's bewildering for me.

I have heard people in India and Africa who were better believers than me and you, renouncing their faith because of pride and other reasons openly before the public. So do you mean they also will get chastised and get into heaven?

God made a way to men to save themselves by dying on the cross but it's man's choice either to get saved or to get damned. The gift of free-will was from the beginning of the world and it will not change.

What does all the epistles of Paul say don't do this, don't do that for adulterers, fornicators................will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I have two verses to make you ponder again on this subject

Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

And also the parable of 10 virgins. It directly signifies 5 wise believers and 5 unwise believers.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, Jesus told the 12 teach and Baptize according to the gospel of the kingdom. What did Jesus tell Paul?

1 Cor 1:17 - For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul was not sent on this so called "Great Commission". Paul preached an entirely different gospel. Paul preached Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.

Who was Paul sent by? Jesus Christ...

Christ told them to teach the Gentiles all that He had commanded them, Gentiles. Paul didn't preach a different Gospel, he preached the same one Jesus did.

KJV Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: (Act 26:22 KJV)

Jesus,

KJV Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: (Act 1:1-3 KJV)

Paul,

19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. {abide me: or, wait for me}
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. (Act 20:19-27 KJV)

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. (Act 28:28-31 KJV)

They both preached the kingdom of God.

 

[agua.]

Great that you agree that chastisement of God for our backsliding and that too I agree with an encouragement. Now if you say that that all the characters in the scriptures I have quoted will not go to hell then it's bewildering for me.

I have heard people in India and Africa who were better believers than me and you, renouncing their faith because of pride and other reasons openly before the public. So do you mean they also will get chastised and get into heaven?

God made a way to men to save themselves by dying on the cross but it's man's choice either to get saved or to get damned. The gift of free-will was from the beginning of the world and it will not change.

What does all the epistles of Paul say don't do this, don't do that for adulterers, fornicators................will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I have two verses to make you ponder again on this subject

Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

And also the parable of 10 virgins. It directly signifies 5 wise believers and 5 unwise believers.

Can you present an example from the Bible that shows someone who was a true believer at some stage and we're told they will be tossed into the LoF ?

 

[jonahmano]

Can you present an example from the Bible that shows someone who was a true believer at some stage and we're told they will be tossed into the LoF ?

It's like asking will you go on boasting about your own indicted son's hanging

I've already presented enough examples but you turn them away with your own intellectual logic but whereas the biblical facts which I have quoted are today's real life examples.

 

[agua.]

It's like asking will you go on boasting about your own indicted son's hanging

I've already presented enough examples but you turn them away with your own intellectual logic but whereas the biblical facts which I have quoted are today's real life examples.

You'll need to return to my questions and objections in post #82 if you want to continue this discussion.

 

[veryberry]

Christ told them to teach the Gentiles all that He had commanded them, Gentiles. Paul didn't preach a different Gospel, he preached the same one Jesus did.

KJV Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: (Act 26:22 KJV)

Jesus,

KJV Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: (Act 1:1-3 KJV)

Paul,

19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. {abide me: or, wait for me}
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. (Act 20:19-27 KJV)

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. (Act 28:28-31 KJV)

They both preached the kingdom of God.

They preached different gospels, different messages.

John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, Peter, Stephen, James, John, Jude, all preached according to what was made known since the beginning of the world.

Paul preached what was kept secret since the beginning of the world.

According to prophecy and according to secret are not the same.

Jesus didn't run around preaching how that Christ died for our sins. Neither did Peter. They preached the gospel of the kingdom of Heaven that was being offered to the Jews. The Jews rejected and after they stoned Stephen, wrath was to come(Daniels 70th week). But wrath was put on hold, the secret was revealed and preached by Paul. After the body of Christ is taken out, Israel's prophetic program will continue by the coming of the wrath of God(Daniels 70th week).

We are to follow Paul and his doctrine. Not Jesus Christ in the gospels.

 

[Gary]

Exodus 32
33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Psalm 69
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Gday Gaz,

Are you sure the referneces to books here is the same as the Book of Life in Rev ? I'm not saying they aren't the same but I've found in the OT sometimes Earthly ideas are types of Spiritual ones in the NT. ie. the Books referenced here may possibly be refering to the physical lives of the wicked in the OT. I haven't researched this fully yet what do you think ?

I believe those verses are referencing the Book of Life and here's why.

Exodus 32
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


The book is obviously a spiritual book because God wrote it. It contains a list of names of those who are righteous. Sinners are blotted from the book.

The Book of Life contains a list of those who are righteous. Sinners are blotted from the Book of Life.

I believe it's the same book.


Psalm 69
27 Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And let them not come into Your righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.


Anyone removed from the Book of Life is banned from entering into God's righteousness. The book here in Psalms is called the "book of the living". The one in Revelation is called The Book of Life. Only the righteous are found in the book of the living, the same as the Book of Life.

What would be the purpose of having 2 separate books that are basically identical?

I believe all these books are the same book. The Book of Life.

But this is just my opinion and my interpretation of the verses. Nothing's etched in stone.

.

 

[Butch5]

They preached different gospels, different messages.

John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, Peter, Stephen, James, John, Jude, all preached according to what was made known since the beginning of the world.

Paul preached what was kept secret since the beginning of the world.

According to prophecy and according to secret are not the same.

Jesus didn't run around preaching how that Christ died for our sins. Neither did Peter. They preached the gospel of the kingdom of Heaven that was being offered to the Jews. The Jews rejected and after they stoned Stephen, wrath was to come(Daniels 70th week). But wrath was put on hold, the secret was revealed and preached by Paul. After the body of Christ is taken out, Israel's prophetic program will continue by the coming of the wrath of God(Daniels 70th week).

We are to follow Paul and his doctrine. Not Jesus Christ in the gospels.

Did you read the passages I posted, he said he preached nothing other than what Moses and the prophets said should come. That's not a different gospel. Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom. Paul said himself that he preached the things concerning the gospel of the kingdom. That's the same gospel that Jesus preached. There's one gospel, not two. Jesus died for sins is a part of the gospel of the kingdom, not a different gospel.

 

[agua.]

I believe those verses are referencing the Book of Life and here's why.

Exodus 32
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


The book is obviously a spiritual book because God wrote it. It contains a list of names of those who are righteous. Sinners are blotted from the book.

I'm not convinced this is the same Book mentioned in Rev at this stage but I agree it isn't a physical book. It looks like Moses was simply saying "kill me and spare them" imo and not that he would give up his salvation for them imo. After all wouldn't that be like forsaking his inheritance like Esau did ? Also notice that all those who did sin died either by the plague in Exodus 32:35 or in the desert. ( aside from Joshua and Caleb ). I think this judgment was physical. I also notice Moses didn't cross over the Jordan (?) this is interesting.

The Book of Life contains a list of those who are righteous. Sinners are blotted from the Book of Life.

I believe it's the same book.


Psalm 69
27 Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And let them not come into Your righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.


Anyone removed from the Book of Life is banned from entering into God's righteousness. The book here in Psalms is called the "book of the living". The one in Revelation is called The Book of Life. Only the righteous are found in the book of the living, the same as the Book of Life.

What would be the purpose of having 2 separate books that are basically identical?

I believe all these books are the same book. The Book of Life.

But this is just my opinion and my interpretation of the verses. Nothing's etched in stone.

.

Oh man I thought our names were etched in stone Thanks for the good presentation Gaz. I'm considering that there really aren't any physical books but this phrase represents Yahweh's positioning of people in the physical life ( as per the OT Israelite quotes ) and after death the sipitual destination ( as per the Rev quotes).