Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Edward]

Hmm, that's not what the passage says.
What? God sits around writing peoples names down then erasing them later as He monitors people's actions and thoughts and hopes for the best? Not my God.


Yes, that's what it says.

I didn't see an AND in the verse.

Revelation 5:1, 3 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. ​

Why do you think there was seven seals on the book and no man was even able to open it?

Revelation 3:7-8 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. ​

Hmm, God knows our works? I wonder if He means past and future works?

Romans 11:33, 36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. ​

Revelation 13:7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world./(KJV)

Ok, so here we have a reference to names being written in the book of life. Simple enough. Then we have

Revelation 3:5
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels./(KJV)

So if it were not ever possible to have ones name blotted out from the book of life, there would not be these words in scripture. With all due respect brother, this is basic comprehension here. You'd have to be trying hard to twist this verse into something else if it does not mean that it is possible for someone to be blotted out.

Oh, it's a nice thought to not ever being able to be blotted out, don't get me wrong, i like that idea, but c'mon man, this is no promise of salvation here, this is a warning to us to overcome.

 

[chessman]

That's something we all have to watch out for, especially in the OT.
Did a man say it? Or did God say it?

Yes, it's all the Word that God has revealed to us, but that does mean He spoke them all, or that everything a man said was correct.

I agree. That's why it is so vital to understand the context of that verse. It's NOT an OSAS=no verse, clearly.

But it is a man praying to God to snuff out his enemies. At least the Psalmist asked God to do it and didn't take matters into his own foul-able hands.

 

[veryberry]

Revelation 13:7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world./(KJV)

Ok, so here we have a reference to names being written in the book of life. Simple enough. Then we have

Revelation 3:5
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels./(KJV)

So if it were not ever possible to have ones name blotted out from the book of life, there would not be these words in scripture. With all due respect brother, this is basic comprehension here. You'd have to be trying hard to twist this verse into something else if it does not mean that it is possible for someone to be blotted out.

Oh, it's a nice thought to not ever being able to be blotted out, don't get me wrong, i like that idea, but c'mon man, this is no promise of salvation here, this is a warning to us to overcome.

1 John 5 4-5
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[chessman]

and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

Oh, it's a nice thought to not ever being able to be blotted out,

On this we agree. It is a nice thought indeed.

You asked for a reply on these two verses that you feel implies OSAS = no.

I shared my take from them and we found a couple of things we can agree on in them. Not bad.

Not perfect agreement, but it could be worse.

I'll just stick with my belief that God doesn't write anyone's name down by mistake and it's His book, and His alone.

The one verse is a man praying for another man's death, the other is Jesus saying He will not blot out names.

I don't go beyond what's written. But I appreciate your feedback.

 

[Butch5]

Hi again Butch5

I wasn’t really asking about the legitimacy of becoming divorced.

Does divorce mean a separation of what God has joined together to become one flesh, or is divorce nothing more than being absolved from marital duties?

How can a man commit adultery by marrying a ‘divorced’ woman, if by God, she is no longer joined to another?

Hi Dustoftheearth,

A marriage is a three way covenant between a man, a woman, and God. If a man divorces his wife without just cause he may be legally free but God has not relieved him of his obligation to the covenant. Likewise, if a woman was divorced for any reason other than adultery according to God she is still in the covenant. The only way that God allows the covenant of be broken is through adultery. If a woman commits adultery the man can break the covenant and God will allow it to be broken. God divorced Israel for adultery. The broke the covenant and therefore God was no longer obligated to keep His end of the covenant. In the same way when one enters into a covenant together with God and then breaks that covenant God is no longer obligated to keep His end of it.

 

[Edward]

1 John 5 4-5
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Yup. And overcoming will not be easy I think. Think back to biblical days. The lord would bless them and there would be peace and fruitful times for awhile, and then they would begin sinning and turn away from God to other Gods and so forth...and then God would let them be taken captive and go into bondage for awhile until they turned back to Him again. All this OT stuff could be a warning to us i think.

 

[Gary]

Exodus 32
33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Psalm 69
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[Edward]

Exodus 32
33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Whoa. I've read Exodus and didn't remember that one. I guess that clears that up!

The only thing that could deny that is a hard heart.

 

[veryberry]

Yup. And overcoming will not be easy I think. Think back to biblical days. The lord would bless them and there would be peace and fruitful times for awhile, and then they would begin sinning and turn away from God to other Gods and so forth...and then God would let them be taken captive and go into bondage for awhile until they turned back to Him again. All this OT stuff could be a warning to us i think.

Believing is not a very hard thing to do.....In fact, its a practice we all do everyday without even thinking about what we are doing.....Just like how that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. You don't have to tell yourself to believe it, or make sure you believe it. You just believe it. When presenting the gospel of our salvation, you should not even have to tell the person to believe. They should just believe or not believe automatically. That's all there is to it. Some of you guys make belief a hard thing to do....

 

[Edward]

Believing is not a very hard thing to do.....In fact, its a practice we all do everyday without even thinking about what we are doing.....Just like how that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. You don't have to tell yourself to believe it, or make sure you believe it. You just believe it. When presenting the gospel of our salvation, you should not even have to tell the person to believe. They should just believe or not believe automatically. That's all there is to it. Some of you guys make belief a hard thing to do....

Right. but there's belief, and there's lip service belief. I thought about this before. it's easy to say "I believe" and indeed it is easy to believe that Christ was here and did die, and did rise again, but!

Is that it, or are there deeper implications to belief. I thought about this long and hard one evening. I had gotten up in the morning and prayed for help. I was in financial straights at the time and really needed some work to come through. So I prayed about it and had faith...(or so i thought)

Then in the afternoon, i was talking to a friend and was asking him for a loan to help get me through...and it hit me like a ton of bricks in the middle of the conversation...I had prayed for help in the morning, and here I was in the afternoon of the same day, asking man for help. What kind of faith is that? What kind of belief is that? Was it even real? Faith without works is dead(with works reading as 'action'). I was talking the talk, but not walking the walk. Belief has to go deeper than words to be belief. It has to affect your walk, decision making, and conduct. Or it's not real belief. Or so it seems to me.

So maybe, just maybe...belief is not so simple as is generally thought?

The entire book of scriptures must affect your walk. You have to live it. Since then, I have found myself in similar circumstance and prayed for help. I unconsciously began to seek help from man, and caught myself..waitaminute, i prayed about this, it says ask and it shall be given, it'll happen, be patient, and it did, the Lord is true to His promises. That's belief. or so it seems to me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thanks

Does God then commit sin when He does not forgive anyone?

Did the disciples commit sin when they did not forgive anyone their sin?

When that person asks for forgiveness out of a broken and contrite heart and they don't forgive him, then, 'yes', they are sinning.

But good luck making God guilty of that sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does David know he will dwell in the House of the Lord forever?

Please keep your explanation simple and in short sentences.
Thank you.
By the way, I think he knows it because OSAS.

I like being on David's team.

He had faith. Faith makes the promise sure.

Everybody who has faith in God will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. Promise.

Stop having faith in God and you no longer have the promise of the everlasting life to come.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 John 5 4-5
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

"Even our faith".......take faith out of the equation and you no longer have what overcometh the world.

The question of eternal security has always been for me, "is it possible to stop having faith in God", not "is a person's salvation secured forever when they believe, no matter what?" And since the Bible warns us in more than one place to not stop having faith or else lose the promise it is apparent that it really is possible for someone who believed to then stop believing.

 

[agua.]

He had faith. Faith makes the promise sure.

Everybody who has faith in God will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. Promise.

Stop having faith in God and you no longer have the promise of the everlasting life to come.

Do you have an example in the Bible of someone who stopped having faith. ie. was a true believer at some stage but will be tossed into the LoF ?

 

[phil marriner]

Salvation comes at death the end of your fleshly life. We will all stumble ,fall along the way even reject him time to time, but his love is eternal,wider and deeper than anything we can comprehend and he waits patiently for us to be reconciled to him

 

[jonahmano]

Do you have an example in the Bible of someone who stopped having faith. ie. was a true believer at some stage but will be tossed into the LoF ?

2 Timothy 4:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Acts 8:18-23 ing James Version (KJV)
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

John 15:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Revelation 3:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

2 Timothy 2:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


1 Timothy 5:11-15 King James Version (KJV)
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

1 Timothy 6:8-10King James Version (KJV)
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

 

[chessman]

The only thing that could deny that is a hard heart.

Oh there's so much irony there it's funny. If you'd read the context of the passage (with an open mind of course), you'd see that verse about Jesus "blotting out names from His scroll" was Jesus' way of replying that He was denying Moses' request:

Exodus 32:32-33 And now if you will forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me from your scroll that you have written.” And Yahweh said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot him from my scroll. ​

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

He had faith. Faith makes the promise sure.

Everybody who has faith in God will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. Promise.

Stop having faith in God and you no longer have the promise of the everlasting life to come.

But David didn't say, "I hope to dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
He said, "I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
How did he know the end result if OSAS is not true?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But David didn't say, "I hope to dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
He said, "I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
How did he know the end result if OSAS is not true?

Because he had faith. Faith is the surety of salvation. Lose your faith and you no longer have the surety of salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you have an example in the Bible of someone who stopped having faith. ie. was a true believer at some stage but will be tossed into the LoF ?

The unmerciful servant. And everyone of the '2nd soil' persuasion in the parable of the soil Jesus taught. They represent the 'every man' of those who forfeit God's forgiveness after they receive it.

And Paul plainly says you remain reconciled to God IF you continue in your faith, not by just securing a one-time, no matter what salvation.