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Losing Salvation after getting saved?

chessman said:
They undercome. But I thought we were talking about saved people.
Click to expand...

We are. :)

Here's what I'm getting at.

Revelation 3
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


If someones name is in the Book of Life, it means they are saved, they have eternal life. As long as their name is in the book they go to heaven, but the second it is removed/blotted out, they go to the Lake of Fire. They lose their salvation.

Do you understand what I'm saying?
.
 
Gary said:
Who is Christ addressing?




What exactly determines who truly belongs to Him? Anyone can say they belong to Him, but do they?
.
.
Click to expand...
That's my whole point.
If Jesus keeps his own, then who are they?
"Depart from me, I never knew you".
 
chessman said:
​

You might want to read all the way through Ps 69.

It's an imprecatory Psalm (the most famous one) whereby the singer is indeed asking God for calamity to come to his enemies. Anything from blindness to stomach troubles.

Psalm 69:4 More numerous than the hairs of my head are those hating me without a cause.Those who are destroying me—my enemies wrongfully— are mighty.

Psalm 69:13-14, 18, 22-25, 27-28 But as for me, my prayer is to you, O Yahweh, for a favorable time,O God, according to the abundance of your loyal love.Answer me with the faithfulness of your salvation. Deliver me from the mud and do not let me sink.Let me be delivered from those who hate me and from the watery depths. Draw near to my soul; redeem it.Because of my enemies, ransom me. Let their table before them be a trap,and their times of peace a snare. Let their eyes be dark so they cannot see,and make their loins continually tremble. Pour out your indignation on them,and let your burning anger overtake them. Let their camp be desolate.Let none dwell in their tents, Add guilt on top of their guilt,and do not let them be acquitted. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,and let them not be recorded with the righteous.
​
That particular verse is the culmination, asking for death (the 1st one) to come to his enemies. It does not say God will necessarily do as the singer asks, either.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels./(KJV)​

The verse specifically says Jesus will not blot out any that overcome. I kind of take Jesus at his word, don't you?
​
Click to expand...

I read through the Psalm and understand that it was a man praying for something, but to me the implication is that it is possible.

And for the revelation scripture...sure it says He will not blot out the names of those who overcome. Certainly I take Him at His word. So what if some do not overcome? They undercome? What's that mean? They don't get blotted out either but are merely the least in heaven or something like that? Then wouldn't it say that? The implication is clear here, some may be blotted out, and He promises that to anyone who overcomes, they will not be blotted out. Simple enough.
 
Dustoftheearth said:
Would you be so kind and answer my question first

Is un-forgiveness a sin?
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Of course it is. And then you're going to make the argument that God forgives sin such that no sin can stand between you and justification. But I showed you the one sin that is not forgivable. The one that grace can't cover because the person is rejecting the grace that could potentially cover it.
 
allenwynne said:
How about this;
You die but 1 second before you die you have a bad thought.
Oops, you lose your salvation.
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Allen baby, come on!

You know better than this.

You don't lose your salvation by simply sinning in the weakness of the flesh. If that were true there would be no such thing as salvation for anybody. You lose your salvation when you turn your back on and show contempt for the grace of God's forgiveness you received. IOW, you don't care about it anymore. You walk away from it. Jesus speaks of these kind of shallow, temporary believers in the 2nd soil in the parable of the sower. They believe for a while, but in the time of trial and testing they fall away, not because they 'really' didn't have faith and get saved, but because they had a weak faith--a faith not rooted deeply enough to weather the storms of living for Christ.
 
Agreed brother Jethro. Once saved always saved is a nice thought and would be a wonderful thing to be true. it seems as if some of the church believes that once you say the forgiveness prayer and then just have faith, that you can go along your merry way without worrying about anything, and herein is a huge deception. just because we once said the sinners prayer and continue to go around saying oh i'm saved doesn't make it so, no matter how much faith one has. One doesn't get to know the Lord by going on their merry way. Depart from me, i never knew you.

If it was so, that OSAS and you can never lose your salvation, then we would not be instructed to work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling. Fear and trembling of what? Showing contempt for the grace of God's forgiveness that you received and having your name blotted out, that's what.
 
Edward said:
If it was so, that OSAS and you can never lose your salvation, then we would not be instructed to work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling. Fear and trembling of what? Showing contempt for the grace of God's forgiveness that you received and having your name blotted out, that's what.
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:thumbsup

You rock, dude.
 
I read that fear and trembling scripture, and the other one which says He will tell many I never knew you, and it brings forth the fear and trembling let me tell you! I wonder how many people will be surprised to hear that from the Lord on that great day? Thinking they were a sure thing and didn't try enough and were deceived...

:eek
 
Deborah13 said:
I think that verse is clearly talking about when one is divorced without just cause.
Fornication is just cause. So if the man divorced his wife for anything besides fornication then they were not legally divorced they were both still married.
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Hi Deborah13

Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Mark 10:2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife.
Mark 10:3 And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?"
Mark 10:4 They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY."
Mark 10:5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Mark 10:7 "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
Mark 10:8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Mark 10:9 "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10:10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
Mark 10:11 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
Mark 10:12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Neither Luke nor Mark have mention of any 'just cause' for divorce

Does Jesus say that 'just cause' given by Moses was "because of your hardness of heart"

Paul says that only death can separate the two, without one becoming an adulterer.

Rom 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
Rom 7:3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man
 
Dustoftheearth said:
Hi Deborah13

Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Mark 10:2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife.
Mark 10:3 And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?"
Mark 10:4 They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY."
Mark 10:5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Mark 10:7 "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
Mark 10:8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Mark 10:9 "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10:10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
Mark 10:11 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
Mark 10:12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Neither Luke nor Mark have mention of any 'just cause' for divorce

Does Jesus say that 'just cause' given by Moses was "because of your hardness of heart"

Paul says that only death can separate the two, without one becoming an adulterer.

Rom 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
Rom 7:3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man
Click to expand...

It was recorded in Matthew where Jesus made the reference to Moses gave them right to divorce for fornication, but this was a concession, because of the hardness of their hearts. From the beginning it was not so.

Matthew 19:8-9
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery./(KJV)
 
Edward said:
Say what? Ok brother, then if what you say is true...what are we to do with the two scriptures that I posted above?
Click to expand...
Jer 31: 31-34
31. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Israel has yet received the new covenant. We are mere beneficiaries of what pertains to Israel. Once Christ's second advent takes place, all of Israel shall be saved and enter into the new covenant. Once Israel is brought into the new covenant, Gentiles will have to go through Israel for blessings, salvation. Today, that is not so.

Israel has not received salvation through the new covenant..
 
Dustoftheearth said:
Hi Deborah13

Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Mark 10:2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife.
Mark 10:3 And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?"
Mark 10:4 They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY."
Mark 10:5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Mark 10:7 "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
Mark 10:8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Mark 10:9 "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10:10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
Mark 10:11 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
Mark 10:12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Neither Luke nor Mark have mention of any 'just cause' for divorce

Does Jesus say that 'just cause' given by Moses was "because of your hardness of heart"

Paul says that only death can separate the two, without one becoming an adulterer.

Rom 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
Rom 7:3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man
Click to expand...

Here is the same teaching in Matthew with more details....
Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
 
Edward said:
I read through the Psalm and understand that it was a man praying for something, but to me the implication is that it is possible.
Click to expand...

What's possible? That a man can pray for another man to die? Sure, that's possible. That's what the Psalmist sang about.
 
chessman said:
What's possible? That a man can pray for another man to die? Sure, that's possible. That's what the Psalmist sang about.
Click to expand...

That's something we all have to watch out for, especially in the OT.
Did a man say it? Or did God say it?

Yes, it's all the Word that God has revealed to us, but that does mean He spoke them all, or that everything a man said was correct.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Allen baby, come on!

You know better than this.

You don't lose your salvation by simply sinning in the weakness of the flesh. If that were true there would be no such thing as salvation for anybody. You lose your salvation when you turn your back on and show contempt for the grace of God's forgiveness you received. IOW, you don't care about it anymore. You walk away from it. Jesus speaks of these kind of shallow, temporary believers in the 2nd soil in the parable of the sower. They believe for a while, but in the time of trial and testing they fall away, not because they 'really' didn't have faith and get saved, but because they had a weak faith--a faith not rooted deeply enough to weather the storms of living for Christ.
Click to expand...

Allen baby, yeah, I like that, Allen baby!

Jethro, I've always been meaning to ask you;
How does David know he will dwell in the House of the Lord forever?

Please keep your explanation simple and in short sentences.
Thank you.
By the way, I think he knows it because OSAS.

I like being on David's team.
 
Edward said:
The implication is clear here, some may be blotted out,
Click to expand...
Hmm, that's not what the passage says.
What? God sits around writing peoples names down then erasing them later as He monitors people's actions and thoughts and hopes for the best? Not my God.

Edward said:
He promises that to anyone who overcomes, they will not be blotted out. Simple enough.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what it says.

I didn't see an AND in the verse.

Revelation 5:1, 3 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. ​

Why do you think there was seven seals on the book and no man was even able to open it?

Revelation 3:7-8 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. ​

Hmm, God knows our works? I wonder if He means past and future works?

Romans 11:33, 36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. ​
 
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