“Not In The Flesh”

[netchaplain]

Paul was referring to the time he was still trying unsuccessfully to keep the Law of Moses.
When he was still walking in and after the "flesh".
"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Rom 7:5)
he was walking in and after the Spirit after his conversion.

Paul was saved before he explained Chapter 7. "Were in the flesh." The idea of keeping the Law was that it was required to be sinless. In other words, only Christ kept the Law the way God required. The Decalogue could be obeyed by anyone, but not to the satisfaction of God.

Besides, "forgiveness" was established only by having in the sin sacrifices of the priest (Num 15:25); and "willful" sin was not forgiven (v30; just as it is now unforgiven - Heb 10:26).

Thanks for your replies and God bless!

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul was saved before he explained Chapter 7

I would rather use the word "converted", as salvation still depends on hearing our name read from the book of life on the last day.

. "Were in the flesh." The idea of keeping the Law was that it was required to be sinless.

...In the OT.

In other words, only Christ kept the Law the way God required. The Decalogue could be obeyed by anyone, but not to the satisfaction of God.

I agree.
Thank God we can obey Jesus' two commandments...love God with all our heart, mind, and soul: plus love your neighbor as yourself.
The flesh having been crucified, with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), a new Spirit, and rebirth from God's own perfect seed, insure it.

Besides, "forgiveness" was established only by having in the sin sacrifices of the priest (Num 15:25); and "willful" sin was not forgiven (v30; just as it is now unforgiven - Heb 10:26).

All sin is willful. (James 1:14:15)
Forgiveness is available to everyone who will turn from sin.

 

[netchaplain]

I would rather use the word "converted", as salvation still depends on hearing our name read from the book of life on the last day.

It's encouraging to know that one is saved at the point of belief in the Lord Jesus; and God makes sure that we follow and love Him (Phl 2:13). This is a truth many believers will not understand, but that's ok because not understanding it doesn't affect one's salvation.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It's encouraging to know that one is saved at the point of belief in the Lord Jesus; and God makes sure that we follow and love Him (Phl 2:13). This is a truth many believers will not understand, but that's ok because not understanding it doesn't affect one's salvation.

You don't believe in a last day's judgement ?
"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)
You don't believe our names must be found in the book of life, before we will be deemed worthy of eternal life ?
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Rev 3:5)
On the one hand, you are correct about "saved at the point of belief", but real belief will translate into obedience to God.
The sinful are not really believers.

 

[netchaplain]

You don't believe in a last day's judgement ?

Hi! It's my understanding that "the last day" is everything coming to open exposure, and all who "judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life" (Act 13:46) will finally be "cast into the Lake of Fire." The sense "that judgment must begin at the house of God" is that all Christians will be found guiltless, at the time when each believed and received the Lord Jesus.

You don't believe our names must be found in the book of life, before we will be deemed worthy of eternal life ?

This is a good point you make here, but "the Book of Life" was written before the foundation of the world because God already knew all who would be saved, before creating!

On the one hand, you are correct about "saved at the point of belief", but real belief will translate into obedience to God.
The sinful are not really believers.

It's my understanding that any who do not obey God are not reborn, because He makes certain that those reborn will always desire to "please" Him (Phl 2:13).

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi! It's my understanding that "the last day" is everything coming to open exposure, and all who "judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life" (Act 13:46) will finally be "cast into the Lake of Fire." The sense "that judgment must begin at the house of God" is that all Christians will be found guiltless, at the time when each believed and received the Lord Jesus.

"Open exposure" ?
What sect teaches that ?
Of course the Christians will be found guiltless, as they have held fast to their repentance from sin and endured faithfully till the end.

This is a good point you make here, but "the Book of Life" was written before the foundation of the world because God already knew all who would be saved, before creating!

No sinner's name will still be in that book, on the day of judgement.
The names of the unrepentant will be blotted out.
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It's my understanding that any who do not obey God are not reborn, because He makes certain that those reborn will always desire to "please" Him (Phl 2:13).

I agree.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars, adulterers, thieves, or murderers.

 

[netchaplain]

"Open exposure" ?
What sect teaches that ?

“For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light" (Luk 8:17).

Luk 12:2
“For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known."

Ecc 12:14
For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

1Co 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

No sinner's name will still be in that book, on the day of judgement.
The names of the unrepentant will be blotted out.

It's my understanding that only the saved are in the Book of Life, which manifests God's omniscience; and the phrase "will not blot out" is in the sense that He would never have to blot out a name, this would be to show God is not omniscient.

"And I will not blot out his name out of the book of life;" by which is meant the choice of persons to everlasting life and salvation; and this being signified by a book, and by writing names in it, shows the exact knowledge God has of his elect, and that this election is of particular persons by name, and is sure and certain; for those whose names are written in it shall never be blotted out, they will always remain in the number of God's elect, and can never become reprobates, or shall ever perish. --John Gill (1697-1771)

The book which contains the names of those who are to live with him forever. The names of His people are thus represented as enrolled in a book which He keeps - a register of those who are to live forever. The phrase “book of life” frequently occurs in the Bible, representing this idea. The expression “I will not blot out” means, that the names would be found there on the great day of final account, and would be found there forever. It may be remarked, that as no one can have access to that book but He who keeps it, there is the most positive assurance that it will never be done, and the salvation of the redeemed will be, therefore, secure.--Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

 

[Hopeful 2]

“For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light" (Luk 8:17).
Luk 12:2
“For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known."
Ecc 12:14
For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.
1Co 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

Who uses the term "Open Exposure" ?

It's my understanding that only the saved are in the Book of Life, which manifests God's omniscience; and the phrase "will not blot out" is in the sense that He would never have to blot out a name, this would be to show God is not omniscient.

I beleive everyone alive has his name in that book...until they commit a sin.
They can have it re-entered with a true turn from sin and baptism for the remission of past sins.

"And I will not blot out his name out of the book of life;" by which is meant the choice of persons to everlasting life and salvation; and this being signified by a book, and by writing names in it, shows the exact knowledge God has of his elect, and that this election is of particular persons by name, and is sure and certain; for those whose names are written in it shall never be blotted out, they will always remain in the number of God's elect, and can never become reprobates, or shall ever perish. --John Gill (1697-1771)

The book which contains the names of those who are to live with him forever. The names of His people are thus represented as enrolled in a book which He keeps - a register of those who are to live forever. The phrase “book of life” frequently occurs in the Bible, representing this idea. The expression “I will not blot out” means, that the names would be found there on the great day of final account, and would be found there forever. It may be remarked, that as no one can have access to that book but He who keeps it, there is the most positive assurance that it will never be done, and the salvation of the redeemed will be, therefore, secure.--Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

I think both those guys are just over-complicating it.

 

[netchaplain]

Who uses the term "Open Exposure" ?

I beleive everyone alive has his name in that book...until they commit a sin.
They can have it re-entered with a true turn from sin and baptism for the remission of past sins.

I think both those guys are just over-complicating it.

It's ok, but we have a different understanding on many issues. God bless!

 

[Hopeful 2]

It's ok, but we have a different understanding on many issues. God bless!

Who uses the terms "open exposure" ?
Is that a regional expression ?

 

[netchaplain]

Who uses the terms "open exposure" ?
Is that a regional expression ?

Easy to understand!

 

[Hopeful 2]

Easy to understand!

Sure, but who uses that expression ?

 

[netchaplain]

Sure, but who uses that expression ?

I think I see what you mean. God bless!

 

[Hopeful 2]

I think I see what you mean. God bless!

You see what I mean, but won't answer ?

 

[netchaplain]

You see what I mean, but won't answer ?

I don't know what you mean by "won't answer." Thanks!

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't know what you mean by "won't answer." Thanks!

You have not answered.
Where is the phrase "open exposure" used ?

 

[netchaplain]

You have not answered.
Where is the phrase "open exposure" used ?

Don't know why you're so hung-up on this phrase, but if you must know, that is just a phrase I used to express the vulnerability that ignorance can place one. If one is unaware (ignorant) of the evils of the two manuscripts used for all translating Scripture, they are in a state of open exposure (vulnerable to attack). Not that a wrong translation can affect one's salvation, but affect spiritual growth. It's all about spiritual growth now, since salvation has been obtained.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Let me add another perspective to the discussion from my understanding of
Ephesians 4.

Ephesians 4:11-15 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Why do we have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, collectively, the offices of the faith?

Before you guys say, "That's a stupid question! Paul answers that in verse 2." hear me out.

Of course it is for perfecting the saints (we agree saints means believers), for ministerial work, and edifying the body.
Let's define the terms:
Perfecting - Finishing, completing, consummating.
Edifying - Building up in christian knowledge instructing improving the mind.

Paul says that we, as believers need finishing, completing.
The obvious, and logical, conclusion one can come to is that, if we need perfecting, if we need completing, then we are not perfect, we are not finished.

Paul says that the body of believers needs building up. It needs improving.
If we need to be built up, and we need to be improved, we are not built, we are not proved.
Improve - make or become better.
Proved - demonstrate to be the specified thing by evidence or argument.

In a nutshell, we, the body of believers, need pastors and teachers because we are not perfect yet. We are improving, but not proved.

When will we be perfect? verse 3:

3. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith . . . "
Our discussion makes it obvious that we are not there yet. The church is divided.

" . . . and of the knowledge of the Son of
God . . . "
We don't know everything, hence the edifying.

" . . . unto a perfect man . . . "
Unto - to or towards somebody/something
We are undergoing the perfecting, to be made a perfect man/woman. That language is future tense. It has not happened yet.

" . . . unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:"
Measure - Equal
Stature - importance or reputation gained by ability or achievement.

Can any person say, in truth, they are the equal of Jesus, perfect in all their ways?
Obviously no.
It would be a prideful boast; or as Jonah put it, a lying vanity.
The good news is that we will be perfected, in that day of glory.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(Notice that John says we shall be like him.) [future tense]

We follow the admonition of vs. 1-3 so we are not deceived by false doctrine, speak the truth in love, and grow.

The whole passage bespeaks of the measure and stature of Jesus, and how, by the power of the Holy Spirit, and through the hard work of evangelists, pastors, and teachers, we can become like Him.

Bottom line:
Believers are not perfect yet. (We wage war against the flesh.)
We will be. (Our goal; total and complete victory.)
We are moving towards it. (We put our armor on, and we make our stand. We fight the good fight of faith. We will be victorious.)
We will get there. (We keep on walking.)

Psalms 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Obviously a person can believe what they choose. l believe what Paul said. I believe that is the true doctrine. Sinless perfection is in the believer's future, in the eternal life to come. With God's grace and mercy, we will get there.

A person does not have to be perfect to come to Jesus.
A person who comes to Jesus, is saved by grace through faith.
Faith keeps our souls connected to Christ.
Grace covers our sinful flesh; which is not connected to Christ on its own, but only through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
One day we will be like Him in mind, body, and soul.
We will be perfected.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Something I just thought of writing my previous post.

Believers need the possibility of sin as part of the perfecting process.
How do you know you are being perfected, if you never sin?
Sin is the measure of our progress.
Did I sin as much today as I did yesterday, a year ago, three decades ago?
Without boasting, with all praise and glory to God, I believe I sin less than I did 30 years ago.
I am progressing.

How do I know I am progressing?
My desire to sin is less.
My grief after having committed a sin.
My joy, which returns once I confess my sin.

So sin serves a purpose in the perfecting process. Which also, at least partially, answers the question, "Why does God allow sin to continue.?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[netchaplain]

Hey All,
Let me add another perspective to the discussion from my understanding of
Ephesians 4.

Ephesians 4:11-15 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Why do we have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, collectively, the offices of the faith?

Hi Josef! Your reply is refreshing energy in the Lord, and I appreciate it. Of course the ministries of the apostles and prophets have done their part and are no longer active, but we are to follow their instructions via the ministries of the rest of the "offices" which are still active (as you've indicated). These ministries are primarily for "the perfecting (maturing) of the saints," which is the "conforming" of the Christian to the Life of the Lord Jesus as much as possible (Rom 8:29; Eph 4:15).

God's blessings to your Family!