1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[JLB]

If he is walking in darkness, he isn't a Christian.
"Brother" has more than just one connotation.

That's your opinion based on your indoctrination from your denomination.

Again, I asked you where in the passage does John shift from addressing Brothers in Christ to addressing the unsaved.

You keep stating your opinion but you refuse to point out where in the actual verse that John is no longer addressing brothers in Christ.

But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness,...

"his brother" refers to two brothers in Christ.

The one brother for whatever reason begins to hate his brother.

John is warning the brethren that they must guard themselves against allowing an offense to anger them to the point of hating their brother.

Again here is the context -

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
The Test of Knowing Him
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:1-11

• He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. V.10
• But he who hates his brother is in darkness... V.11

Verse 10 refers to two brothers in Christ.
Verse 11 refers to two brothers in Christ.

The brother who hates is in danger of no longer having eternal life remaining in him, if he doesn't repent.

That's John's point to write this warning, to exhort us to forgive and to continue loving.


13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:13-15

John makes a clear distinction between the world and the brethren he is addressing as he plainly states "my brethren".

• Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Again, the warning is clear, brothers in Christ who begin to hate their brother, for whatever reason, will no longer have eternal life abiding in them if they don't repent and confess their sin so as to be forgiven and cleansed of that unrighteousness.


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Brothers in Christ must confess their sin in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Our sins = brothers in Christ

The world = Unsaved




JLB

 

[Corinth77777]

I can't consider that doubt to be a sin.

He ended up doing the works of the faithful.

Don't you think then, that a life on earth without sin is possible now ?
Abide in the faith !
Many of the nay-sayers speak and write of faith, but their sin accommodating actions are faithless.

We sin by thoughts, ways, and action. Yet we are to be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

And the statements in scripture that Abraham believed God is pointed out for a reason.

And the passages shows they were things concerning his earthly life.

I do believe God looks over, rather forgives sin.
My goal here was to see the evidence you had for your belief.

But while here,I also was brought to understand a passage a little better in 1 John.

I believe people know what they have when they walk in it. And I believe that God does not hold his anger forever.

I also believe that the Spirit helps keep you on the path.

I believe Jesus is the beginning and the end
And salvation is being caught up in His works in the middle.

So that makes salvation not a one time deal but everyday life we receive from God.

Because there were 2 that were taken up and I know for sure one walked with God ...yet it does not say they never sinned, but the fact they walked with God implies a possibility that they did what was pleasing to God.

Jesus always did what was pleasing to the father and it is said His father never left Him alone.

A long time ago I asked my father that if we say we will always sin, then won't we behave according to our belief. He actually thought that was a good question.

We are definitely a product of the views we hold.
The place to remain is in Christ.



But My thoughts are I think God would rather have us Trust Him over sinless perfection.
Sinless perfection sounds like something we must do rather than a person we must trust for our lives. Abraham believed God and He was imputed righteousness.

IT IS GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART OF ALL MAN.

AND MAYBE THIS IS WHY THIS IS SAID:

Hopeful's whole perspective comes from the false teaching that his denomination promotes.

He was taught that when a person is water baptized their physical body was born again "sinless" and therefore does not influence the Christian to sin; in essence the water baptized Christian is sinless in body.

After being shown his error from scripture, he simply denies what Jesus taught.

Words of Christ in red -

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh
• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Wow He/ she never mentioned that.

 

[JLB]

Wow He/ she never mentioned that.

I know.

Furthermore he believes he is sinless, and therefore has no need to confess his sins.

His claim is, if a person sins, they were never really born again.

John the Apostle writes:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:8 - 2:2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

He is in total denial of the truth of there verses.


Here is what the scripture plainly says -

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

 

[Corinth77777]

Hopeful 2
Did not mean to post that last one to you..forgot I started it.

WE ARE NOT TO USE OUR FREEDOM FOR A LISENCE TO SIN.

THE FREEDOM TO ME IS JESUS TOOK AWAY THE PENALTY OF SIN.

ALSO BACK TO ABRAHAM WHERE YOU SAID DOUBT WAS NOT A SIN.

THERE IS A PLACE IN SCRIPTURE WHERE IT SAYS ANYTHING THAT IS NOT FROM FAITH IS SIN. DOUBT IS NOT FROM FAITH.

SO WE SIN BY THOUGHTS, WAYS, AND ACTION



AND BACK TO 1 JOHN
I THINK CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING -

ONE THING IS THIS WE CAN ALL PRESS ON TOWARD THE MARK - Jesus Christ- and if we are pressing, we are pressing through something.

Is it possible to be at a place where you become the type of person that naturally does what is right because you trusted God and are transformed from the inside out- scriptures seem to teach so. First make the tree good then its fruit will be.

And I think that our call to Holiness first starts with Holiness..When God reveals Christ and we receive Him as the Son of God.

From there we grow in grace

The goal to be a light to the world.
But we look at Moses, Did He sin after knowing God? He misrepresented Him and the consequence -He did not enter the promises land....But later isn't He seen on the Mt. Of transfiguration?

Does God discipline His children? Yes
And they are still called His children.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
For everything there is a season and a time.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

We all go through these emotions. If you say you don't, you are not being honest.

What is the most important reason we go through them?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Are you posting in the right thread ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus didn't die and resurrect in the same way Paul is telling the Romans to die, resurrect, and walk in newness of life.

If we have faith that our baptism into Christ and into His death was true, we take part in His death and are raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
So, how are they not "the same way" ?

So what Jesus had was a literal death and resurrection, so it doesn't transfer that Paul is telling them to literally die.

Without our death, there is no rebirth.

In verse 10 he says "The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God." So when Jesus died it wasn't that he stopped sinning in the same way Paul is telling the Romans they should stop sinning. Jesus wasn't a sinner in the first place so his death and resurrection had nothing to do with that.
The gist of what he's saying is have the mindset of being dead to sin and alive to God. Another way to take what Paul said is that water baptism is required to be resurrected.

The gist is "get rid of the "flesh" so you can walk in the Spirit."

Well, here's a question for demonstrative purposes. Have you stopped sinning? Even any bad thoughts?

I have stopped sinning, to the glory of God.
If by 'bad thoughts' you mean temptations, temptations don't cease at conversion.
If you mean think ill of, or towards, anybody...as a new creature, reborn of God's seed, I cannot do such a thing.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2
Did not mean to post that last one to you..forgot I started it.

No big deal...

WE ARE NOT TO USE OUR FREEDOM FOR A LISENCE TO SIN.

Our 'freedom' is from sin: from service to sin.

THE FREEDOM TO ME IS JESUS TOOK AWAY THE PENALTY OF SIN.

Only if you don't sin anymore.
You can't commit sin and think there will be no penalty.

ALSO BACK TO ABRAHAM WHERE YOU SAID DOUBT WAS NOT A SIN.
THERE IS A PLACE IN SCRIPTURE WHERE IT SAYS ANYTHING THAT IS NOT FROM FAITH IS SIN. DOUBT IS NOT FROM FAITH.

I am familiar with that, but it wasn't written till well after Abe's life.

SO WE SIN BY THOUGHTS, WAYS, AND ACTION

True.
Jesus' words about looking on a woman to lust after her come to mind.

AND BACK TO 1 JOHN
I THINK CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING -

Maybe, but what is the context of 1 John ?
Isn't it the differentiation of who is walking in God versus who is walking in sin ?

ONE THING IS THIS WE CAN ALL PRESS ON TOWARD THE MARK - Jesus Christ- and if we are pressing, we are pressing through something.

That something need not be sin.

Is it possible to be at a place where you become the type of person that naturally does what is right because you trusted God and are transformed from the inside out- scriptures seem to teach so. First make the tree good then its fruit will be.

Isn't that "tree" made good at its rebirth from God's seed ?
It certainly won't be bringing forth the prior sinful fruit.

And I think that our call to Holiness first starts with Holiness..When God reveals Christ and we receive Him as the Son of God.
From there we grow in grace

Agreed.

The goal to be a light to the world.

Agreed.

But we look at Moses, Did He sin after knowing God? He misrepresented Him and the consequence -He did not enter the promises land....But later isn't He seen on the Mt. Of transfiguration?

Moses didn't have the luxury we in the NT have.
That being we can cast off the flesh and walk in the Spirit.
He lost out on entering the promised land, but as a man of the "flesh" was only held to reasonable conditions of judgement.

Does God discipline His children? Yes
And they are still called His children.

If they need discipline, they will get it.
But not all discipline involves sin.
If they walk away from the Lord, they will be lost forever.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's your opinion based on your indoctrination from your denomination.

Again, I asked you where in the passage does John shift from addressing Brothers in Christ to addressing the unsaved.

All of 1 John is written to supposed brothers in Christ, the church.
But the subject matter of the letter deals with differentiating whether any men walk in God or in sin.
In 1 John 1, verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those walking in, or about to start walking in, the light-God.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 refer to those walking in darkness-sin.

If they are walking in sin and not in God, 1 John 2:1 tells the righteous how to get the unrighteous saved.
Use our Advocate !!!
John than goes on with the definition of the righteous.
They walk as Jesus walked.

 

[Hopeful 2]

We sin by thoughts, ways, and action. Yet we are to be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

And the statements in scripture that Abraham believed God is pointed out for a reason.

And the passages shows they were things concerning his earthly life.

I do believe God looks over, rather forgives sin.
My goal here was to see the evidence you had for your belief.

But while here,I also was brought to understand a passage a little better in 1 John.

I believe people know what they have when they walk in it. And I believe that God does not hold his anger forever.

I also believe that the Spirit helps keep you on the path.

I believe Jesus is the beginning and the end
And salvation is being caught up in His works in the middle.

So that makes salvation not a one time deal but everyday life we receive from God.

Because there were 2 that were taken up and I know for sure one walked with God ...yet it does not say they never sinned, but the fact they walked with God implies a possibility that they did what was pleasing to God.

Jesus always did what was pleasing to the father and it is said His father never left Him alone.

A long time ago I asked my father that if we say we will always sin, then won't we behave according to our belief. He actually thought that was a good question.

We are definitely a product of the views we hold.
The place to remain is in Christ.



But My thoughts are I think God would rather have us Trust Him over sinless perfection.
Sinless perfection sounds like something we must do rather than a person we must trust for our lives. Abraham believed God and He was imputed righteousness.

IT IS GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART OF ALL MAN.

AND MAYBE THIS IS WHY THIS IS SAID:

Wow He/ she never mentioned that.

You have faith in Christ...believe this..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
If a man sins, he is ignoring the escapes promised by God.
His fate will be in a fiery lake.
If he eventually submits to God and repents of all sin, he can change that fate.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I know.

Furthermore he believes he is sinless, and therefore has no need to confess his sins.

His claim is, if a person sins, they were never really born again.

John the Apostle writes:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:8 - 2:2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

He is in total denial of the truth of there verses.


Here is what the scripture plainly says -

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

I know we can't walk in God (light) and in sin (darkness) at the same time.
Why don't you know that ?

 

[JLB]

I know we can't walk in God (light) and in sin (darkness) at the same time.
Why don't you know that ?

You keep dodging the truth of the scripture, which leads you to talk in circles.

You are assigning your own definition to what walking in darkness means, when the meaning is given in the scriptures.

He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11

• But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness

A Christian can be a loving brother in Christ until someone say, kidnaps and rapes and murders his little 8 year old daughter, then that person may indeed struggle with resentment and hatred. They may indeed turn to God for help and grace to find their way through to peace and forgiveness, or they may turn bitter.

Christians deal with these kinds of things everyday, especially in third world countries where persecution and atrocities are the norm.

Some deal with the grief and become stronger and more Christlike, while others become bitter and turn away from God.

Maybe a brother in Christ, leaves his daughter with another Christian couple to babysit, and his daughter is killed in a tragic accident, and the brother never is able to forgive his brother and grows bitter and begins to hate his brother.

John is addressing his followers and exhorting them to continue to love their brother's and not hate.




JLB

 

[follower]

implies a possibility that they did what was pleasing to God.

Jesus always did what was pleasing to the father and it is said His father never left Him alone.

We do also. He never leaves us nor forsakes us.
^^.............................................^^.......................^^
"We" "us" "us" does not include all the people of the world, nor all the people in a church, nor even all thegquests on the internet.

A long time ago I asked my father that if we say we will always sin, then won't we behave according to our belief. He actually thought that was a good question.

And if we abide in Jesus Christ, and if we say truthfully we will not always sin... and if we behave according to God's Word (much better than 'according to our belief' I think) ....

We are definitely a product of the views we hold.
The place to remain is in Christ.

Can we be a product , a poem, a workmanship ongoing, of GOD, in Christ Jesus !? The views we hold may seem so puny and fallible.

The goal to be a light to the world.

Did Jesus Tell Disciples "You are a light in the world" ?

 

[follower]

You keep dodging the truth of the scripture, which leads you to talk in circles.

This might be entirely correct ( I'm not addressing the subject/topic of the other posts here).
On this and other forums, it is or seems often needed to "talk in circles" if to do any posting at all. Not because of dodging the truth , no, not necessarily anyway. Rather because the straight plain plumb truth, in line with all Scripture and harmony with God's Purpose and Plan, may be rejected before it is realized or understood.

 

[Runningman]

If we have faith that our baptism into Christ and into His death was true, we take part in His death and are raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
So, how are they not "the same way" ?

Jesus likely died from a combination of blood loss and asphyxiation. There is no comparison between the death and resurrection Jesus had and the kind Paul talked about in Romans 6. Paul is just speaking analogously.

Without our death, there is no rebirth.

Indeed.

The gist is "get rid of the "flesh" so you can walk in the Spirit."

We can't get rid of the flesh until we die because the flesh is not born again, but the spirit.

I have stopped sinning, to the glory of God.
If by 'bad thoughts' you mean temptations, temptations don't cease at conversion.
If you mean think ill of, or towards, anybody...as a new creature, reborn of God's seed, I cannot do such a thing.

Do you have anything like this?

Matt 15
19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander.

 

[follower]

Jesus likely died from a combination of blood loss and asphyxiation.

Not possible.

 

[Runningman]

Not possible.

Why?

 

[follower]

Scripture says what happened specifically.

I think it is also written what could not be done as well.

Completely in Perfect Harmony with All the Creator's Plan, Purpose and Word with no contradiction at all.

 

[Runningman]

Scripture says what happened specifically.

I think it is also written what could not be done as well.

Completely in Perfect Harmony with All the Creator's Plan, Purpose and Word with no contradiction at all.

I am speaking in accordance with the word of God.

When the Bible speaks of the blood of Jesus being what purifies us of sin, you do realize he didn't just have a papercut right? He bled out.

So how is it "not possible" for Jesus to have died of blood loss?

 

[follower]

Did anyone here read the Bible ? (concerning Y'SHUA'S Crucifixion)

 

[Hopeful 2]

You keep dodging the truth of the scripture, which leads you to talk in circles.

I know the truth can free us from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)
Do you know that ?

You are assigning your own definition to what walking in darkness means, when the meaning is given in the scriptures.

Scripture tells us what darkness is, in Pro. 4:19..." The way of the wicked is as darkness: "
The way of the sinner is "darkness".

He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.

So true.

He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11

So true.

But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness

So true.

A Christian can be a loving brother in Christ until someone say, kidnaps and rapes and murders his little 8 year old daughter, then that person may indeed struggle with resentment and hatred. They may indeed turn to God for help and grace to find their way through to peace and forgiveness, or they may turn bitter.

Hypotheticals don't interest me.
The man can elect to remain in the faith or show he never had faith to begin with.
The man can manifest from which seed he has been born, or reborn from by his reaction to temptation.

Christians deal with these kinds of things everyday, especially in third world countries where persecution and atrocities are the norm.

Yes.

Some deal with the grief and become stronger and more Christlike, while others become bitter and turn away from God.

As those born of God can't commit sin, (1 John 3:9), the "turners" show they were never reborn of God.

Maybe a brother in Christ, leaves his daughter with another Christian couple to babysit, and his daughter is killed in a tragic accident, and the brother never is able to forgive his brother and grows bitter and begins to hate his brother.

His disobedience will be penalized the same as any other child of the devil.

John is addressing his followers and exhorting them to continue to love their brother's and not hate.

Agreed.
He also tells us how to identify the posers.
Those who cannot say they have no sin, or, that they have fellowship with God, or, those who don't "know" God, are the posers.