1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[Corinth77777]

Who said it then ?

So, I was right !

Yes, He said that too.

Do sinners abide in His word ?
No, they do not.
They walk in .

 

[Corinth77777]

I disagree.

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32


Jesus was speaking to believers.

There are a couple of ways to see this:

1. Before they believed him- they were unbelieving

2. There were still those who were unbelieving after they heard Him, and those who believed as #1

Pointing out> regeneration and Justification come first.

For God calls things to exist through His word.

First believing who Jesus is, then living by His word.

He is basically saying to me- that when you live according to the call you make your call sure.

So then a person knows what they have when they walk in it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Of course we can be free from the service to sin, however we must by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of sin that dwells in our flesh.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13

The truth of Scripture is that anyone sinning against God, is serving sin against God. Only those doing His righteousness are serving the righteous Lord.

However, some apply sinful man's moral relativism to God's words, and make service a matter of frequency, even as some judge sin by type: Some judge all sinning is not unto death, and some make some sinning is not unto service.

Once God's service is interpreted by frequency, then moral relativity of liberal philsophers and theologians is injected into God's judgment.

Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2 Tim
{2:15} Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. {2:16} But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

The righteous Lord and judge says all sinning is enmity against Him, and any time of sinning is being His enemy.

Jas 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Scripture does not say in the 'days' ye eat therof, but in the very day of disobedience to God.

Moral relativity is also applied to repentance as well as service. It's the progressiveness of gradual repentance relative to the past. They only repent to sin less than before, and never to sin not at all.

They also make themselves moral relativist activists and frequency watchers, who judge what amount of frequency is now guilty of serving sin.

Which, of course, never includes their own 'infrequent' amount of only sinning from time to time.

They are progressives liberally interpretiing Scripture pertaining to works and repentance, whereby they justify themselves by their own less frequent sinning than before, as well as condemn others for more frequentl;y sinning than themselves.

It's all judgement relative to their own faith and works, and not relevant to God's judgement of any sinning against Him at any time in heaven and on earth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

No the truth can't set us free from committing sin.

True. Only doers of the word are free from sinning.

Jhn 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Those who don't want to be set free from their own sinning, will never cease sinning, because they harden themselves not to repent from their own sinning.

Know matter how much truth they read, hear, and give lip service to.

 

[RBDERRICK]

We will be free from sin when our physical body is resurrected from the dead, at His coming.

Not for those refusing the Lord's command to repenting of sinning today.

The vain hope of unrepented or lukewarm repenting sinners, is to be born a whole new creature after the grave.

2 Cor

{5:17} Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. {5:18} And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ

Only those who repent of their sins and trespasses to become now in Christ Jesus, and continue in Him to keep themselves from their past sinning, shall be judged worthy of resurrection unto life in Jesus' likeness.

 

[Corinth77777]

No one.



No you were wrong.



No Christians must continue in His word, in order to eventually know the truth.

Certainly doesn't happen at water baptism. Check mate!

Are you saying because He did not quote it correctly He is wrong?

 

[Free]

When Scripture says sons born of God cannot commit sin, does it mean that we cannot be sinning, or that when we are sinning, it cannot be judged as sin by God?

I preach the former, others decieve themselves with the latter.

It's both. Those who think they are Christians but don't or can't sin, can only believe that if their sin is not judged as sin by God. However, sin is sin and for a "believer" to claim to be without sin is say that the sins they commit aren't sinful. That is what John is addressing in 1 John 1:8-10. That is precisely why John says such a "believer" makes God a liar and doesn't have his word in them.

Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. (ESV)

 

[Free]

Saints struggle with temptation, not sinning.

Sinners struggle with sinning.

Saints that sin by temptation are now sinners struggling with sinning.

True believers give in to temptation from time to time and sin. That is why John says believers are to be continually confessing their sins for forgiveness and cleansing.

True. This is enduring temptation and overcoming the sinning.

Which won't see its perfection and completion in this lifetime.

Only if continually sinning.

Which is every believer.

Those who preach when they sin, are not preaching Jesus' doctrine for if we sin.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Then it's called repenting of the sin.


Since it's not John's words being taught, then it's someone else's doctrine that makes no sense with God.

However, it makes perfect since for those continually sinning, to need continual confession and cleansing.

And the longsuffering Lord will continue to do so, untl the confession becomes only the lip-service of "Oops. Sorry."

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

I'm not sure what your point is here or how it answers my point that you quoted.

Diving into original languages is a favorite tool of people, that want to change the plain English into something else entirely.

You're fallaciously begging the question. None of the books of the Bible were originally written in English, so we must necessarily look at what the original languages state, since many things don't translate directly. Anyone who knows more than one language knows this to be the case. Hence, when studying the Bible, if one doesn't want to look into the original languages, as part of proper study they should, at a minimum, consult several different translations. As it is, translators must necessarily look at the original languages and translate into English, and they are all biased in terms of which meanings of words they choose, since many words have more than one meaning depending on context.

But no amount of such linguistic arts can ever produce John ever saying the saints ought be continually confessing...As though the saints ought be continually sinning...

It has absolutely nothing to do with any command to "be continually sinning." It has everything to do with the reality of living in a fallen world where we are still tempted.

So, this gets back to my point. You and Hopeful 2 keep saying that once a person repents and is saved, they don't need to confess sin since they no longer sin. However, that makes John's statement in 1 John 1:9 nonsense, since he is saying "if we [keep on confessing] our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." This can only apply to believers.

There is no growth in Christ Jesus with disobedience, but only with obedience.

I haven't said otherwise.

The holy seed of Christ produces only the obedient trees of God:

1 Peter
{1:14} As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

It's only another sinful seed that produces any evil fruit, whether all evil, or good and evil.

Please, tell me of a seed that produces an instant, fully grown plant or tree or crop. Hopeful 2 cannot do it, so maybe you can help.

Also with the Lord, anyone doing unrighteousness are sinners not inheriting His righteous kingom: Whether at any time, or habitually.

Even as one sin is as any other, any time of sinning is as any other.

There is no transgression worse nor better than any other, nor is there any time of transgression worse or better than any other.

Those who believe their own less sinning, is less sinful than the world, are saying their own sinning is less sinful than the world.

Rom 2:22
Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


This of course condemns frequency of doing such things.

The relativist judgment of sinful man is among the unrepentant Jews having the law alone, and the unrepentant Christians having faith alone.

It's what the world most mocks about any religious sinner, who believes their own sinning and amount of sinning, is better than those not playing religion at all.

{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Mark 2;17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus only comes to call sinners to repentance, not the self-righteous by law or faith alone.

I don't know what your point(s) is here.

Especially truly warm believers with half-hearted repentance.

Those believers have made a warm bed with their continual sinning and confessing, without repentance of the sinning.

No. John is very clear that true believers, those who have been justified by truly repenting and putting their faith in Christ by grace alone, through faith alone, still struggle with sin. That is without question. According to John, any who think that they are a true believer but without sin, is self-deceived, without the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them (1 John 1:8, 10).

Not necessarily. There are many liars, that absolutely beleive what they are lying about. Many people can be sincerely wrong.

And so, to say someone is lying about the truth of the Bible, is not necessarily saying someone is purposely lying against the truth.

However, all liars that love to make a lie, will be cast into the LOF.

Whether they sincerely believe their own lies or not.

Yes, necessarily. A lie is purposeful, always. It is an intent to deceive that has nothing to do with whether or not one actually believes what they are lying about.

And some do spend much time loving how to turn the truth of Scripture into a lie,

Yes, they promote the ideas that true believers don't sin and that works are necessary for justification, both of which flatly contradict Scripture.

True. Even Paul said a lie, when He said his companions on the road to Damascus did not hear any voice.

We see by God's account through Luke, that they certainly did.

And so willing to believe all things, Paul honestly repeated their lie to him, that they didn't hear any voice from heaven.

Prove that Paul lied.

But if the righteous do sin, then we have the same advocate with the Father, that the whole world of sinners have to confess and repent to.

That has been my point the entire time. Why do you dispute it and then suddenly state it as though I have never said it?

The good news is not that no saint can possibly ever sin again. The good news is that anyone can now repent for Jesus' sake, and become a saint not sinning.

And this contradicts what you stated immediately above.

 

[JLB]

I can't agree with your POV that Jesus did not say the truth could free us from service to sin.
It is plainly written in John 8:32-34.

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32


Only those who continue in His word, shall (eventually) know the truth, and by knowing the truth they shall be made free.

Here is some truth --

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10


The way we are free, cleansed from sin, is by confessing our sin; humbling ourselves and confessing our sin.

We know by the truth, that if we say, we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Not for those refusing the Lord's command to repenting of sinning today.

The vain hope of unrepented or lukewarm repenting sinners, is to be born a whole new creature after the grave.

2 Cor

{5:17} Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. {5:18} And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ

Only those who repent of their sins and trespasses to become now in Christ Jesus, and continue in Him to keep themselves from their past sinning, shall be judged worthy of resurrection unto life in Jesus' likeness.

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath Romans 2:5-8

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32

Then, contrary to your post # 306, Jesus did say it !

Only those who continue in His word, shall (eventually) know the truth, and by knowing the truth they shall be made free.

Eventually ?
That is not written in the bible.

Here is some truth --

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

I agree, but I also know that 1 John 1:8 and 10 address those walking in darkness...not those walking in the light.

The way we are free, cleansed from sin, is by confessing our sin; humbling ourselves and confessing our sin.

Ideally, that happens before being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
After which, we can say we have no sin !

We know by the truth, that if we say, we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.

It is true, when a sinner says it.
But those walking in God, Whom scripture says is the light, don't serve sin.
Thankfully, there is no sin or sinners in God !

 

[JLB]

Eventually ?
That is not written in the bible.

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32


Did Jesus say to those who believe in Him, you now know the truth and are sinless, or did Jesus say If you abide in my word.

Abide means to continue. Jesus says if we continue in His word...


How long did Jesus say we would need to continue in His word, before we knew the truth in such a way whereby we would be free?

So, it's either immediately or eventually.

Does a baby immediately know everything there is to know about life when they are born?



JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32

OK, I can see where you got your POV from now.
But during Jesus' time, nobody could be reborn of God's seed so they were all sinners.
Jesus was getting them ready for the NT.

Did Jesus say to those who believe in Him, you now know the truth and are sinless, or did Jesus say If you abide in my word.

His audience is of an unknown make up.

Abide means to continue. Jesus says if we continue in His word...

Won't everybody who loves Him do that ?

How long did Jesus say we would need to continue in His word, before we knew the truth in such a way whereby we would be free?
So, it's either immediately or eventually.

I see your POV.
But I don't think Jesus was supplying any time line.
Some believe and repent immediately, and other go their entire lives in service to sin.ow everything there is to know about life when they are born

 

[JLB]

OK, I can see where you got your POV from now.
But during Jesus' time, nobody could be reborn of God's seed so they were all sinners.
Jesus was getting them ready for the NT.

I see, so you believe Jesus never got anyone saved during His time of preaching the Gospel on earth?

Jesus sent out His disciples, who were now apostles, to preach the Gospel to the lost, and all the while they were unsaved?

Unsaved apostles were sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, who were never saved?


That's what you believe?


5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! Matthew 10:5-15





JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

I see, so you believe Jesus never got anyone saved during His time of preaching the Gospel on earth?

Jesus provided everything men would need to be converted, for the rest of time on earth, in the OT.

Jesus sent out His disciples, who were now apostles, to preach the Gospel to the lost, and all the while they were unsaved?

If the day of judgement had yet to happen, you are correct.

Unsaved apostles were sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, who were never saved?
That's what you believe

You put too much value on "saved" while ignoring all the time before the day of judgement.
Much time will pass between a man's conversion and his vessel's death.
During which, many leave the faith.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! Matthew 10:5-15

The day of judgement will be used to determine whose name is in the book of life.

 

[JLB]

You put too much value on "saved" while ignoring all the time before the day of judgement.
Much time will pass between a man's conversion and his vessel's death.
During which, many leave the faith.

Do you believe anyone was saved through the preaching of the Gospel by Jesus Christ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Do you believe anyone was saved through the preaching of the Gospel by Jesus Christ?

No.
Until the day of judgement, nobody can say they "are saved".
You may state that you are a Christian, but that could easily change tomorrow, under duress.
I will make one exception, the thief on the cross.

Every day presents opportunities to abandon the faith.
Some who say they are "saved" today, will be gone tomorrow.

 

[JLB]

No.
Until the day of judgement, nobody can say they "are saved".

I’m saved.

I know I’m saved because His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.


For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:15-16





JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

I’m saved.

I know I’m saved because His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.


For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:15-16

How can someone who has been freed from bondage still be a servant...of sin ?

 

[JLB]

How can someone who has been freed from bondage still be a servant...of sin ?

Because they choose to walk according to their flesh, which contains sin.


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12