1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[Consecrated Life]

wondering if the conscience is formed by our environment. That would mean if there was no law there would be no conscience that would convict one.

Our consciousness to sin we are born with ,
That is why God says in the judgement day He will righteously be able to judge all people accordingly .
No law was given at the time yet both Adam & Eve knew to hide from God because of their sin.
Likewise even there no law existed at the time Cain knew both to hide the body of his murdered brother and deny any involvement in his murder :
Gen 4:9
And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

 

[Hopeful 2]

wondering if the conscience is formed by our environment. That would mean if there was no law there would be no conscience that would convict one.

It is not.
Our conscience is given by God.

But that does not mean there is no sin, just means people are not rewarded for what they don't know. But if they have no conscience of sin is it sin?

It is not sin if it can't be punished by God.

no
Now if a person is born in sin and shaped in iniquity they have a shaped conscience due to the the enviroment.

That would be nobody.
No one is "born in sin".
That was just a slur.

They reside in death. Yet do they know they are apart from God?

I think so, as knowledge of His presence is inescapable.

Does eating off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil mean anything for the rest of the world or only for Adam.

It changed everybody.
We now all have a conscience of good and evil.

Yet again God is seen in His creation that man are without excuse

OK

I did,go back and read your writing. please

I'll pass.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Someone whose first & foremost desire is making sure everyone knows they are Christian, which in itself is a huge red flag, is by compulsively self-promoting their character in telling everyone how "good" they are only magnifies the spiritual insecurity & fear that dominates their lives.
They might as well wear a billboard advertising how good they out of this fear they live by.

True.

Mat 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 6:2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

There is no silent voice of the Most High within them whose presence alone is more than sufficient to comfort & strengthen them in all humility , Love , peace , gentleness, joy, faith. that exudes a heavenly radiancy from their very person that can be clearly seen, with no compulsive need to be restlessly, boastfully, loudly imposed on all within earshot.

Very well said. It's greater significance is in it's own clarion sound of well-shapen words, to exude the perfection of beauty as in a lovely song.

Indeed, it's prettiness of speech can almost drown out it's own radiant message. It's the kind of song Stephen may even have been singing with the beautific face of an angel...

Unlovely dispositioned Slaves they are to their own desperate, lonely, compulsive futile pleadings of self-glorification ,self-enlargement.. self-justification.

Sadly, most true indeed. But, once again, most poetically said.

1Ti 1:15
..... Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

True again. Paul is a chief example of someone that was once the greatest of sinners persecuting the body of Christ, and working most to destroy the gospel of salvation from sinning.

Now, if you'd like to address the flip-side of your condemnation for horn-blowers of one's own righteousness, then I'd be glad to hear it.

It's about those boasting of their continued sinning under the guise of self-debased himility, and justifying it by twisting Scriptural truth into a lie of the devil.

You can read it in the first post about 1 John 1 rebuking the hypocrites, that say their own continued sinning with the world is no more condemned like the world. They boast of walking in the light with Christ, with their works of darkness.

They are so loud in their boasts of self-justified sinning, that they even try to say the apostle Paul boasted of being the chiefest of sinners than them all. And further that they are only obeying the apostle's call to be as much a sinner by grace as he, by following him as he follows Christ.

It's the unrepented trespassers' gospel, that calls all sinners on earth to see who can be God's chiefest enemies through their own faith alone.

Terrible, sin't it?

 

[Consecrated Life]

True again. Paul is a chief example of someone that was once the greatest of sinners persecuting the body of Christ, and working most to destroy the gospel of salvation from sinning.

When Paul declares "I am chief of sinners" he is testifying of sin that is most painful and troubling to him present , not past.
And with good reason.
Paul says that he was not even aware of his past sins prior to his salvation committed in ignorance.
1Ti 1:13
I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

God's biblical principle of unto whom much is given , much more is required applies to sin as well .
Where you aware of that ?

We can look to ourselves in this regard , what sin has been most painful and troubling for you in your life , sin you committed before you ever knew the Love of Christ , or sin that occurred after you had been GIVEN so much in Christ who died to be your Savior ?

Which sin causes the most suffering and heartache, sin committed before salvation or after ?
Paul had an answer for this question.
Not the words of someone "boasting of their continued sinning" I might add.
Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


For me the sin that is most painful and sorrowful & demoralizing is the sin that has occurred post-salvation, after I had received the greatest love, promise & assurance, any person can ever receive in the person of Jesus Christ.
The sins I committed in ignorance before I ever received Christ , while not pleasant to think about will never compare to the heart felt pain from grieving the Holy Spirit in full knowledge of what Love was shown for me to save me.

 

[Hopeful 2]

When Paul declares "I am chief of sinners" he is testifying of sin that is most painful and troubling to him present , not past.

Were that true, a ton of Paul's other writings would be very hypocritical.
How can someone who doesn't believe a man can be sinless write to others praying for their perfection ?
For instance..."Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
And..."Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
Or how can a sinner honestly write..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Or..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

And with good reason.
Paul says that he was not even aware of his past sins prior to his salvation committed in ignorance.
1Ti 1:13
I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

You seem to be unaware of what constitutes a sin.
James writes..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
Without being tempted to commit a sin, there is no sin !
Without the lust to commit a sin, there is no sin !

God's biblical principle of unto whom much is given , much more is required applies to sin as well .
Where you aware of that ?

Don't you think that much was given to Paul ?
Don't you think that freedom from the lusts of the flesh, (Gal 5:24), would be one of those things ?

We can look to ourselves in this regard , what sin has been most painful and troubling for you in your life , sin you committed before you ever knew the Love of Christ , or sin that occurred after you had been GIVEN so much in Christ who died to be your Savior ?

With a true repentance from sin, there will be no more such pain or trouble.
That is insured by rebirth from God's seed, and the gift of the holy Ghost.

Which sin causes the most suffering and heartache, sin committed before salvation or after ?
Paul had an answer for this question.
Not the words of someone "boasting of their continued sinning" I might add.
Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

This plight from Paul's remembrance of his pre-conversion failings under the Law was answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
The body of sin/death of the pre-conversion Paul was destroyed at its baptism into Christ and into His death and burial.

For me the sin that is most painful and sorrowful & demoralizing is the sin that has occurred post-salvation, after I had received the greatest love, promise & assurance, any person can ever receive in the person of Jesus Christ.

One true repentance from sin would end your terrible pain and sorrow.

The sins I committed in ignorance before I ever received Christ , while not pleasant to think about will never compare to the heart felt pain from grieving the Holy Spirit in full knowledge of what Love was shown for me to save me.

Why would you fret over things you didn't even know were bad ?
You have been forgiven for your past, so why keep returning to them like they still mattered ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

When Paul declares "I am chief of sinners" he is testifying of sin that is most painful and troubling to him present , not past.

So why is Paul not only "fretting" , but calling himself "chief of sinners" over things he did in Ignorance , & did not even know were bad ?


1Ti 1:13
I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.


Why is Paul returning to things done in ignorance like they still mattered ?
Didn't Paul Know what you know that, " One true repentance from sin would end your terrible pain and sorrow."

One true repentance from sin would end your terrible pain and sorrow.

Why would you fret over things you didn't even know were bad ?
You have been forgiven for your past, so why keep returning to them like they still mattered ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Now, if you'd like to address the flip-side of your condemnation for horn-blowers of one's own righteousness, then I'd be glad to hear it.

It's about those boasting of their continued sinning under the guise of self-debased himility, and justifying it by twisting Scriptural truth into a lie of the devil.

You can read it in the first post about 1 John 1 rebuking the hypocrites, that say their own continued sinning with the world is no more condemned like the world. They boast of walking in the light with Christ, with their works of darkness.

They are so loud in their boasts of self-justified sinning, that they even try to say the apostle Paul boasted of being the chiefest of sinners than them all. And further that they are only obeying the apostle's call to be as much a sinner by grace as he, by following him as he follows Christ.

It's the unrepented trespassers' gospel, that calls all sinners on earth to see who can be God's chiefest enemies through their own faith alone.

Terrible, sin't it?

I can honestly say that no Christian I know has ever boasted or attempted to Justify to me a sin they have becoming ensnared in.
To person they have all expressed shame & remorse, repentance and turning away from it.
Could be due to the fact that anyone who knows me knows that attempting to boast or justify sin will not get a favorable response form me.
For the people you describe , of which I have never known one personally the one biblical application that immediately comes to mind is that " God is not mocked"
Nobody gets by with sin of a ongoing deliberate nature .
God will see to it, if they are a Christian .
There is a biblical principle that applies to that as well as King David discovered .
God does not whip the devil's children, just His own .

Gal 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I

 

[Hopeful 2]

So why is Paul not only "fretting" , but calling himself "chief of sinners" over things he did in Ignorance , & did not even know were bad ?

He isn't.
In 1 Tim, he is noting how even the worst of the worst can receive the gifts necessary for salvation.
And he notes that the persecution of the church, that qualified him as the "worst of sinners", was done in ignorance.

Why is Paul returning to things done in ignorance like they still mattered ?

What did he return to ?
It wasn't the persecution of the church, so what sins do you have in mind ?

Didn't Paul Know what you know that, " One true repentance from sin would end your terrible pain and sorrow."

Yes, he did.
His own repentance enabled him to serve the Lord faithfully, in the face of his own persecutions.

 

[Consecrated Life]

So why is Paul not only "fretting" , but calling himself "chief of sinners" over things he did in Ignorance , & did not even know were bad ?

He isn't.
In 1 Tim, he is noting how even the worst of the worst can receive the gifts necessary for salvation.
And he notes that the persecution of the church, that qualified him as the "worst of sinners", was done in ignorance.

Why does Paul say " I am " chief of sinners , instead of the proper term " I was " chief of sinners if he has already received salvation ?

 

[Corinth77777]

.

It is not.
Our conscience is given by God.

It is not sin if it can't be punished by God.

That would be nobody.
No one is "born in sin".
That was just a slur.

I think so, as knowledge of His presence is inescapable.

It changed everybody.
We now all have a conscience of good and evil.

OK

I'll pass.

Where did the "I don't sin anymore go"
If you go back and read your question you would see the answer I underlined.

Don't ask questions you don't want the answer to. ( just acting like you)

Saying " make your point" wasn't nice - you just forgot your question. That was not from love- therefore it was from _______?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why does Paul say " I am " chief of sinners , instead of the proper term " I was " chief of sinners if he has already received salvation ?

He "is" the worst one saved.

 

[Hopeful 2]

.Where did the "I don't sin anymore go"
If you go back and read your question you would see the answer I underlined.

Too far in the past now.

Don't ask questions you don't want the answer to. ( just acting like you)

OK ?

Saying " make your point" wasn't nice - you just forgot your question. That was not from love- therefore it was from _______?

I guess I did "forget my question".

 

[Consecrated Life]

Why does Paul say " I am " chief of sinners ,

He "is" the worst one saved.

" I am" chief of sinners
Not a complex two word statement in it's intimation .
Your inability to reconcile it's simple meaning not withstanding.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why does Paul say " I am " chief of sinners , instead of the proper term " I was " chief of sinners if he has already received salvation ?

You misread it.
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Tim 1:15)
Paul was the worst of those Christ came to save.
Why do you assume that Paul would continue to be the worst sinner ?
Paul is the one who wrote of how to quit committing sin !

 

[Consecrated Life]

You misread it.
"Paul was .."

Paul never used the word "was" you are now introducing in desperation.
" I am " is the term he used .
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Tim 1:15)

If you can show me just one example of yourself using the term " I am" rather than " I was " to indicate something you once were but are no longer I would love to see you make that work ?


As much as you talk about " I am" meaning " I was" that should be a snap for you .

 

[Corinth77777]

Faith is said to be worked by love

What does that mean to you guys?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul never used the word "was" you are now introducing in desperation.
" I am " is the term he used .
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Tim 1:15)

He used that word in relation to the "saved" part.

If you can show me just one example of yourself using the term " I am" rather than " I was " to indicate something you once were but are no longer I would love to see you make that work ?

Sure..."Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am one of the worst."
No matter how many others are saved by Jesus, I will always be one of the worst.

As much as you talk about " I am" meaning " I was" that should be a snap for you .

Thanks for making me consider the above.
Your interpretation of 1 Tim 1:15 only serves those who deny we can all live in complete obedience to God.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Paul never used the word "was" you are now introducing in desperation.
" I am " is the term he used .
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Tim 1:15)

He used that word in relation to the "saved" part.

What word ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

What word ?

The word "AM".
paraphrased..."I am the worst sinner saved by Christ".
The saved don't keep acting like the unsaved.

 

[Consecrated Life]

The word "AM".
paraphrased..."I am the worst sinner saved by Christ".
The saved don't keep acting like the unsaved.

The forced linguistic gymnastics only make you appear more spiritually unaware of Paul's specific words and meaning.
Paul cannot be Chief of sinners based on his pre-salvation sin done ignorantly of the sin in unbelief he also spoke of.
To say you are chief of sinners and then in the same breath say ,, but , but, but "I did it ignorantly in unbelief."
would be as wishy washy , half baked , half stepping self serving claim as you could find in scripture .
If Paul was talking about the same sin .
Thankfully Obvious to anyone with a modicum of spiritual discernment who knows Paul better than that knows he was not that mealy mouthed and wishy washy & he was speaking to two distinctly different instances of sin.
The sin committed in unbelief and ignorance being the sin before his conversion could not be the sin that made him refer to himself as chief of sinners.
The two concepts being as different as night and day, and go together like oil and water.

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Tim 1:15)

But , But , But ....

1Ti 1:13
...... I did it ignorantly in unbelief.