1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[Mustard Socks]

*edited. my words were harsh and uncharitable. Forgive me.

 

[WIP]

Paul says we are saved "by faith", or "by faith" we are saved.

There is no disagreement with this.

If someone no longer has faith, or no longer believes, or depart's from the faith, do you honestly believe they are still "saved by faith"?



JLB

By faith or through faith? Is there a difference?

 

[Mustard Socks]

By faith or through faith? Is there a difference?

In my view they are concomitant.

 

[FreeGrace]

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

What is it, according to your understanding, that a person must do, to have the Holy Spirit?

Believe the Gospel?
Something else?JLB

Eph 1:13 states the answer plainly: 'having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit'.

The problem with your position is the assumption that one can be unsealed, or lose the gift of the Holy Spirit. But where is that specifically taught?

If the indwelling Holy Spirit can be undone or lost, then the Bible would have clearly addressed that. But it hasn't, so there is no reason to assume that the Holy Spirit can be undone or lost.

Theology by assumption is no theology at all. Just another opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

The gifts and the calling are irrevocable.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

So, is your position that the calling is the gift of God? That 11:29 speaks only of one gift, not 2? Please explain.

I said this:
"eternal life is a gift of God."

False!

Flat out wrong. Rom 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift of God. You've failed to show otherwise.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

As I said, 6:23 SAYS "the gift of God is eternal life". Of course the gift is "in Christ Jesus our Lord". I never suggested otherwise.

But not including "in Christ Jesus our Lord" doesn't make the statement "the gift of God is eternal life" wrong. That would be absurd.

Paul warns these Christians, not to become a slave again to sin, as your master is the one you obey:

• Whether sin leading to death.
• Obedience unto righteousness.

...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The problem with your position is to default ASSUME that "death" always refers to eternal death. Your position ignores the divine discipline of physical death.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, those who have no answer to the plain words of Christ, usually fall into attacking the person, since the their doctrine is exposed for what it truly is.

You refuse to answer a simple question, that requires you to admit that the fundamental requirement to having the Holy Spirit is to believe.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

Not so fast. v.14 teaches the eternal security part: "who (the Holy Spirit is the who) is the GUARANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE. Got that? And this guarantee is for WHEN? "until the REDEMPTION of the purchased possession (that be us, the ones who have believed).

Do I need to define the word "redemption" or is that a familiar word?

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Those who believe = Saved
Those who believe for a while = saved for a while.
JLB

Another invalid evidence for your theories. Unless the Bible specifically teaches about losing salvation of one loses faith, it is only a mere assumption to believe that notion.

No one has shown from Scripture that losing faith equals losing salvation.

For those who are serious about defending their own positions must show from Scripture what they so confidently affirm.
1 Tim 1:7 but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. NIV

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul says we are saved "by faith", or "by faith" we are saved.

There is no disagreement with this.

If someone no longer has faith, or no longer believes, or depart's from the faith, do you honestly believe they are still "saved by faith"?
JLB

Sure. The gifts of God are irrevocable. As is the calling of God. Both are irrevocable.

 

[gr8grace3]

By faith or through faith? Is there a difference?

Huge difference. Saved BY grace through faith.

If we step on an airplane and have faith that it will get us across the country.And mid flight we suddenly lose all faith that the airplane is going to make it. And it makes it. What were you saved by? The airplane or your faith?

I simply do not believe God is going to open up the side door and give His kids the boot in mid flight.

Romans 8~~
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Mustard Socks]

If people could lose their eternal security they would wouldn't they?
After all, our human nature is what compelled God to send us a perfect one who was the image and likeness of a man imbued with the spirit of God to direct our steps to be better than we are. He suffered and died on the cross to take upon himself the punishment we deserve for being sinners. And in the course of that torture his words prior lived on as truth. Whosoever believes in that sacrifice and all that it meant shall have eternal life.

God's grace called us out of death into eternal salvation, which is security in his begotten word. . To revoke that and enter back into death it would have to be God that is the liar. And Jesus died for something that we could choose to throw back in his face.

That's just not the good news He was born to deliver is it?

I would wonder rather than continue to argue with a non-scriptural doctrinal push that claims eternal security in Christ is not true, why we don't take a moment to question why anyone would argue it is?

 

[WIP]

In my view they are concomitant.

You used a word I'm not familiar with. I looked up the definition but am still not sure I understand how it applies. Can you elaborate with more layman's terms?

 

[Mustard Socks]

You used a word I'm not familiar with. I looked up the definition but am still not sure I understand how it applies. Can you elaborate with more layman's terms?

Certainly.
concomitant

 

[FreeGrace]

Huge difference. Saved BY grace through faith.

Amen!!

If we step on an airplane and have faith that it will get us across the country.And mid flight we suddenly lose all faith that the airplane is going to make it. And it makes it. What were you saved by? The airplane or your faith?

Excellent example!! It is the OBJECT of our faith that saves, not our faith.

I simply do not believe God is going to open up the side door and give His kids the boot in mid flight.

Absolutely! And it's better than that. He promised that those who have believed will never perish. John 3:16 and John 10:28.

Romans 8~~
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I believe v.38 gets lost in the shuffle. By saying "nor things present, nor things to come", Paul was saying that whatever happens will NOT separate us from the love of God.

So, even those who lose faith beause of temptations or pressures of life, which is future to their faith in Christ, will not lose their salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

God's grace called us out of death into eternal salvation, which is security in his begotten word. . To revoke that and enter back into death it would have to be God that is the liar.

This is what the loss of salvation view cannot explain or defend.

And Jesus died for something that we could choose to throw back in his face.

Further, it would mean that He died for absolutely NOTHING, if one's salvation could be revoked.

I would wonder rather than continue to argue with a non-scriptural doctrinal push that claims eternal security in Christ is not true, why we don't take a moment to question why anyone would argue it is?

That's been my whole focus; prove through valid evidence that the Bible teaches loss of salvation. Of course, that cannot be done, esp since the Bible teaches the exact opposite.

 

[Mustard Socks]

This is what the loss of salvation view cannot explain or defend.


Further, it would mean that He died for absolutely NOTHING, if one's salvation could be revoked.


That's been my whole focus; prove through valid evidence that the Bible teaches loss of salvation. Of course, that cannot be done, esp since the Bible teaches the exact opposite.

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello Mustard Socks, dirtfarmer here

I agree that salvation can only be received, but I am not sure about the garden and the cross

 

[gr8grace3]

I believe v.38 gets lost in the shuffle. By saying "nor things present, nor things to come", Paul was saying that whatever happens will NOT separate us from the love of God.

So, even those who lose faith beause of temptations or pressures of life, which is future to their faith in Christ, will not lose their salvation.

Yes! And it brings us back to why Paul could describe salvation the way he did in Eph 2:8 and 2:5.

You were saved in the past(at the moment of belief/faith Acts 16:31). You are saved in the present. You are saved in the future...........NOTHING is going to separate us from His Love.His salvation. His eternal life. His body. That is an irrevocable gift. What verse was that again?:tongue

 

[Mustard Socks]

hello Mustard Socks, dirtfarmer here

I agree that salvation can only be received, but I am not sure about the garden and the cross

Jesus is the second Adam.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Yes! And it brings us back to why Paul could describe salvation the way he did in Eph 2:8 and 2:5.

You were saved in the past(at the moment of belief/faith Acts 16:31). You are saved in the present. You are saved in the future...........NOTHING is going to separate us from His Love.His salvation. His eternal life. His body. That is an irrevocable gift. What verse was that again?:tongue

Matthew 10:22-30?
22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

 

[dirtfarmer]

Jesus is the second Adam.

hello Mustard Socks, dirtfarmer here

Yes, the first man Adam was made a living soul, but the last Adam a quickening spirit. There is no "second" Adam, only a first and the then the last. It is only after the fall of the "living soul" Adam that he begat offspring and they were after his likeness and image, not the likeness and image of God. That is the reason that death, not physical but spiritual, has passed to all men.

 

[Mustard Socks]

hello Mustard Socks, dirtfarmer here

Yes, the first man Adam was made a living soul, but the last Adam a quickening spirit. There is no "second" Adam, only a first and the then the last. It is only after the fall of the "living soul" Adam that he begat offspring and they were after his likeness and image, not the likeness and image of God. That is the reason that death, not physical but spiritual, has passed to all men.

It's a matter of semantics. There is no difference in calling the last Adam or the second Adam. They are both Jesus Christ.
Through Adam's sin the human race became spiritually dead. Through the second Adam or last Adam the human race became new and alive in Christ in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for the sins of the human race.