1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[dirtfarmer]

It's a matter of semantics. There is no difference in calling the last Adam or the second Adam. They are both Jesus Christ.
Through Adam's sin the human race became spiritually dead. Through the second Adam or last Adam the human race became new and alive in Christ in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for the sins of the human race.

hello Mustard Socks, dirtfarmer here

If there is no difference then why does scripture say," last Adam"? I believe it is important because the first Adam was created without a sin nature, but acquired one during the fall. Christ is the last man to be sinless, without sin nature, therefore he is called the last Adam.

 

[JLB]

You were saved in the past

...by faith


You will receive salvation, in reality at the end of your faith.

IOW the end result of your faith is salvation.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

If you have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, then by default, you do not have salvation in reality, but you have the hope of salvation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for....

Now we have faith for salvation, which is called salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Paul explains:

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


What in this passage, is Paul waiting for with perseverance?



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

...by faith


You will receive salvation, in reality at the end of your faith.

IOW the end result of your faith is salvation.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

If you have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, then by default, you do not have salvation in reality, but you have the hope of salvation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for....

Now we have faith for salvation, which is called salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Paul explains:

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


What in this passage, is Paul waiting for with perseverance?



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

What is Paul waiting for with perseverance? Salvation from the presence of sin. He has already received salvation from the penalty of sin in that he is not longer spiritually dead. He also has received salvation from the power of sin. Romans 6:18 " Being then made free form sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." We, the saved, as Paul was, are awaiting our salvation from the presence of sin.

 

[gr8grace3]

...by faith


You will receive salvation, in reality at the end of your faith.

IOW the end result of your faith is salvation.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

If you have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, then by default, you do not have salvation in reality, but you have the hope of salvation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for....

Now we have faith for salvation, which is called salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Paul explains:

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


What in this passage, is Paul waiting for with perseverance?



JLB

Simple answer. His resurrection body. We don't see it now but we "hope" for it.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

You are using a worldly hope. Believers(who advance/mature) after salvation use a biblical hope.......CERTAINTY. WITHOUT A DOUBT.

 

[gr8grace3]

...by faith


You will receive salvation, in reality at the end of your faith.

IOW the end result of your faith is salvation.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

If you have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, then by default, you do not have salvation in reality, but you have the hope of salvation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for....

Now we have faith for salvation, which is called salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Paul explains:

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


What in this passage, is Paul waiting for with perseverance?



JLB

But anyhooo.........go back to the periphrastic perfect that I explained. By what you are saying here it can't be true. So prove to me that the periphrastic perfect is not in Eph 2:5 or 2:8. And then you would have some valid evidence to prove your point and call me out to be false a teacher.

Pitting scripture against scripture just doesn't work.

 

[Mustard Socks]

hello Mustard Socks, dirtfarmer here

If there is no difference then why does scripture say," last Adam"? I believe it is important because the first Adam was created without a sin nature, but acquired one during the fall. Christ is the last man to be sinless, without sin nature, therefore he is called the last Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 New International Version (NIV). So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

 

[Mustard Socks]

I would wonder how after the sacrifice on the cross it can be argued that one must work to be saved all the says of their life. And then depending on that level of committed labor find out if they worked hard enough on their faith to receive glory once they're dead.

 

[chessman]

Through the second Adam or last Adam the human race became new and alive in Christ in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for the sins of the human race.

Did you mean to imply that the entire human race became new and alive in Christ or rather that the brothers have?

1 Cor 15:49-50 (LEB) And just as we have borne the image of the one who is made of earth, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God,​

 

[Mustard Socks]

Did you mean to imply that the entire human race became new and alive in Christ or rather that the brothers have?

1 Cor 15:49-50 (LEB) And just as we have borne the image of the one who is made of earth, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God,​

Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world.

 

[chessman]

Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world.

Okay, I agree. But WRT 1 Cor 15:49-50, is not Paul clearly saying that it is the brothers that will bear the heavenly image/bodies, not the entire human race?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If people could lose their eternal security they would wouldn't they?

My wife got saved at the same time I did, later received the gift of speaking in tongues, but, by her own admission, has since departed the faith and no longer believes.

why we don't take a moment to question why anyone would argue it is?

The importance of knowing that salvation can be taken away because of unbelief is especially important in this time we live in. It's so easy to rationalize the sin of a works-less, faithless life when you've been told over and over again that your belief/obedience has no bearing on your eternal place. James and John made it quite clear that the person who is not changed by faith in Christ simply does not have the faith/ born-again experience they claim they have (James 2:14,18 NASB, 1 John 3:9-10 NASB). But hyper-grace doctrine insists that the unbelieving/ works-less person is still saved as long as they have some kind of confession of faith somewhere in their past. That COMPLETELY contradicts the passages I just cited. COMPLETELY.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Okay, I agree. But WRT 1 Cor 15:49-50, is not Paul clearly saying that it is the brothers that will bear the heavenly image/bodies, not the entire human race?

John 3:14–16

 

[chessman]

But WRT 1 Cor 15:49-50, is not Paul clearly saying that it is the brothers that will bear the heavenly image/bodies, not the entire human race?

John 3:14–16

Yes, that's my point. Paul agreed with John, John the Baptist and Jesus:

John 3:15, 18, 27, 36 (LEB) Jesus said ... that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”​

Humankind, "a man" can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. This includes the gift of eternal life and incorruptable bodies. Humans that do not believe can not receive eternal life. Their corruption and the wrath of God abides on those humans who do not believe. They have received no thing (nothing) from Heaven.

 

[JLB]

I would wonder how after the sacrifice on the cross it can be argued that one must work to be saved all the says of their life. And then depending on that level of committed labor find out if they worked hard enough on their faith to receive glory once they're dead.

No need to wonder, just read what the bible says.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:2-4

He has given us all the things that we need to live a life of godliness, through the knowledge of Him... But !



5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

add to your faith:

virtue [moral purity]
knowledge -
self-control
perseverance
godliness
brotherly kindness
love


Peter listed these things the we are to do... if !

If we don't want to be blind: ie walk in darkness.
If we want an entrance to be made available for us into God's Kingdom.
If we don't want to stumble: Turn away from God.

Stumble = The idea here is having turned away from the Light, a person stumbles in darkness; no longer believing.

WE are instructed to do these things, because we have been given the Holy Spirit, and the power of God's grace to live as godly people in this world.

It's our responsibility to do, if ....



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
You were saved in the past

...by faith

You will receive salvation, in reality at the end of your faith.

Then please explain how Jesus wasn't in error when he used the PRESENT TENSE and said this:
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. NIV

Your claim is in direct contradiction to what Jesus said. It is clear that your understanding of 1 Pet 1:9 is in error.

IOW the end result of your faith is salvation.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

Why keep kicking at the goads here? The Greek word for "end" doesn't mean "end of one's physical life" as your position would have it, but at the completion of one's faith. When one finally comes to the realization that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that His death on the cross paid for the sins of the world, and trusting Him alone to save you. That's what it means. Not what you suppose it to mean.

Who should we believe? Your claims or the claims of Jesus?

If you have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, then by default, you do not have salvation in reality, but you have the hope of salvation.

I will believe what Jesus said. Not your unbiblical claims.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

What in this passage, is Paul waiting for with perseverance?
JLB

He was waiting for eternity, when he would be with Jesus Himself.

This is proven by what Paul wrote elsewhere:
Phil 1:23
I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far NIV

 

[FreeGrace]

My wife got saved at the same time I did, later received the gift of speaking in tongues, but, by her own admission, has since departed the faith and no longer believes.

So, apparently it is this that drives your theology. Rather than the Word of God and the promises therein.

The importance of knowing that salvation can be taken away because of unbelief is especially important in this time we live in.

If that were true, then the Bible cannot be believed or trusted. Not meaning to pry, but did your wife depart the faith because of your theology?

It's so easy to rationalize the sin of a works-less, faithless life when you've been told over and over again that your belief/obedience has no bearing on your eternal place.

Right here you've just openly admitted that works are required to get into heaven. So why deny that your theology is a works based system of salvation?

James and John made it quite clear that the person who is not changed by faith in Christ simply does not have the faith/ born-again experience they claim they have (James 2:14,18 NASB, 1 John 3:9-10 NASB).

Neither of these verses say or mean what is being claimed.

But hyper-grace doctrine insists that the unbelieving/ works-less person is still saved as long as they have some kind of confession of faith somewhere in their past.

Again, the pejorative use of the term "hyper-grace" only reveals your contempt for the matchless grace of God.

You've quoted James in this post that I am responding to. Why not accept and quote ALL of what he wrote? Such as:
James 4:6
But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. NASU
James 4:6
But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: NIV
James 4:6
But the grace he gives is greater, which is why it says, CJB

God's grace is greater than ALL our failures. But your position does not allow for that.

That COMPLETELY contradicts the passages I just cited. COMPLETELY.

Nope. Not at all. In fact, James 4:6 contradicts your position and view of God's matchless grace.

 

[JLB]

But anyhooo.........go back to the periphrastic perfect that I explained. By what you are saying here it can't be true. So prove to me that the periphrastic perfect is not in Eph 2:5 or 2:8. And then you would have some valid evidence to prove your point and call me out to be false a teacher.

Pitting scripture against scripture just doesn't work.

Scripture against scripture is what the OSAS crowd must do, to propagate an unbiblical doctrine.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

For now we have faith, when He comes, we will have the salvation of our souls, at the revelation of Jesus Christ, which is why we are instructed to continue in the faith, to the end.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin,
for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


Please answer honestly.

What is it in this passage, that Paul says he is waiting for, with perseverance?

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Paul say we were saved [past tense] in this hope, in which he is describing the language of faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

...things not seen. hoped for...

...but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

Paul explains we are saved, in this hope.

If we are still hoping for salvation, the salvation we will receive, when He comes, then we do not yet have the object of our faith, but we are waiting for it, with perseverance.

Meanwhile, now at this present time, in this life, while we are waiting, we are told to do these things:

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

add to your faith:

virtue [moral purity]
knowledge -
self-control
perseverance
godliness
brotherly kindness
love


Peter listed these things the we are to do... if !

If we don't want to be blind: ie walk in darkness.
If we want an entrance to be made available for us into God's Kingdom.
If we don't want to stumble: Turn away from God.

Stumble = The idea here is having turned away from the Light, a person stumbles in darkness; no longer believing.

WE are instructed to do these things, because we have been given the Holy Spirit, and the power of God's grace to live as godly people in this world.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Scripture against scripture is what the OSAS crowd must do, to propagate an unbiblical doctrine.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

For now we have faith, when He comes, we will have the salvation of our souls, at the revelation of Jesus Christ, which is why we are instructed to continue in the faith, to the end.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin,
for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


Please answer honestly.

What is it in this passage, that Paul says he is waiting for, with perseverance?

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Paul say we were saved [past tense] in this hope, in which he is describing the language of faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

...things not seen. hoped for...

...but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

Paul explains we are saved, in this hope.

If we are still hoping for salvation, the salvation we will receive, when He comes, then we do not yet have the object of our faith, but we are waiting for it, with perseverance.

Meanwhile, now at this present time, in this life, while we are waiting, we are told to do these things:

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

add to your faith:

virtue [moral purity]
knowledge -
self-control
perseverance
godliness
brotherly kindness
love


Peter listed these things the we are to do... if !

If we don't want to be blind: ie walk in darkness.
If we want an entrance to be made available for us into God's Kingdom.
If we don't want to stumble: Turn away from God.

Stumble = The idea here is having turned away from the Light, a person stumbles in darkness; no longer believing.

WE are instructed to do these things, because we have been given the Holy Spirit, and the power of God's grace to live as godly people in this world.


JLB

Lets keep it simple.

In Eph 2:8 Paul uses a periphrastic perfect to describe salvation for the believer. Saved in the past.Saved in the present.Saved in the future. It is an emphatic statement,with no loopholes.

Your description of salvation is different from Paul's.

Show me that the periphrastic perfect is not used to describe salvation for the believer in Eph 2:8. It can't be there with your description of salvation if you are right.

I will change my mind on eternal security if you can prove this one point to me. But stay focused. Stick to Eph 2:8 or Eph 2:5 and The periphrastic Perfect of "you are saved."

 

[JLB]

Then please explain how Jesus wasn't in error when he used the PRESENT TENSE and said this:
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. NIV

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. John 5:24-30


Key word: Believes

A person has eternal life, who is "in Christ", as He is the source of eternal life.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1

Those who do not remain connected to Christ, are no longer connected to the eternal life within Him.

We are instructed to abide: remain connected "in Him".

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

Eternal life is given to those who believe.

Those who believe's for a while, then no longer believe's, has returned to unbelieving.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Lets keep it simple.

In Eph 2:8 Paul uses a periphrastic perfect to describe salvation for the believer. Saved in the past.Saved in the present.Saved in the future. It is an emphatic statement,with no loopholes.

Your description of salvation is different from Paul's.

Show me that the periphrastic perfect is not used to describe salvation for the believer in Eph 2:8. It can't be there with your description of salvation if you are right.

I will change my mind on eternal security if you can prove this one point to me. But stay focused. Stick to Eph 2:8 or Eph 2:5 and The periphrastic Perfect of "you are saved."

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

In this passage, what does Paul say he is waiting for, with perseverance?

He was waiting for eternity, when he would be with Jesus Himself.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Eternity is not found in this passage.

Paul Himself, says we were saved, in this hope...

We all who have faith in Christ, have the hope of salvation.

All the conjuring, and word twisting you can come up with, will not change this fact.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

again

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

again

...having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


JLB