1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[JLB]

When someone adds words to the Texts to 'make' them say things they don't actually say, the case is closed for them, yes.

There is no verse that says someone will 'lose their eternal life'. Thus, you try creating them. It's quite contradictory really. As if that life they received upon believing were not really eternal.

Odd really why someone would think eternal life is not eternal. Or why being blotted out of the book of life means means anything other than death.

I see. So you are teaching us that if we are "blotted out" of the book of Life, we are still saved, though we are no longer in the book of Life?

Is the Book of Life, the book of temporary life or the book of Eternal Life?

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


Funny that you would think the Book of Life, is not the Book of Eternal Life.


This seems to come from the same "spirit" as departing from "the faith", is faith in food or things God created,
rather than faith in Christ Jesus, which the context reveals.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 4:1-5



JLB

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 " Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? Matthew 25 is about the judgment of the nations after the tribulation. The saints will never be judged by angels.

If we are judged by our works for entrance into heaven, that is a gospel of works, not the gospel of the grace of God.

Nations is a reference to "Ethnic Groups". ie: Gentiles.


Jesus is teaching His Apostles privately about His Coming and the end of the age, in which He will return and Gather His people together.

All His people. Not Just Jews.

His Apostles were Jews who thought the Gospel was only for Jews.


By saying "the nations", Jesus is teaching that the Gospel would go forth to the nations, Gentiles, which it eventually did.

• Romans 2 - But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.Romans 2:5-11

Key Understanding: God will render to each one [Both Jew and Gentile] according to his deeds.

• John 5 - all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Key Understanding: Those who have done good vs. those who have done evil.


Please read the words of scripture.


Grace is God's Spirit, given to us who believe, to empower us to live a righteous life, something we could not do without the Spirit.


That's why it's called "The Spirit of Grace".


28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29


JLB

 

[chessman]

I see. So you are teaching us that if we are "blotted out" of the book of Life, we are still saved,

Like I said. When people add their own words to what others have said in order to make up their own concocted saying mean something else, to them, the case is closed.

I never said or even implied that nor do I think that being blotted out of the book of life means "we are still saved".

 

[FreeGrace]

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

I find it very interesting how much emphasis your ilk places on the present tense for believing in order to stay saved, yet Jesus used the present tense for "believe" and then added "for a while". So it's clear that the present tense does NOT mean action for the rest of your life.

In fact, in the previous verse, Jesus made the point that one IS SAVED by believing in the aorist tense, which has NO consideration for duration.

Therefore, Luke 8:12 and 13 sinks the claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. It's not taught anywhere in Scripture.

Please explain,with scripture, how a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, so that they fall away, is still somehow a believer?

I've never made such a claim. The point of Scripture is that such a one becomes an apostate.

So, now, the onus is on your position to show from Scripture where God removes salvation/eternal life from any apostate.

So, go for it.

What you have never been able to prove is how a person can be "in the book of life", then later, be "blotted out" of the book of life and still be saved.

How about first proving that anyone HAS been blotted out.

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

Got news for ya. The verse does not say that anyone has been blotted out. And I've already explained what a figure of speech called a "litotes" is and how it is used. And to "not blot out..." is one of those litotes. A figure of speech, which is a gross UNDER-statement which really indicates the opposite condition.

iow, rather than being blotted out of the book of life, the one who overcomes will be greatly acknowledged. That's a litotes.

What you have never been able to prove, is how someone can be "in Christ" then later, removed from Christ, and still somehow be saved?

What you've NEVER been able to prove is that anyone can be removed from the sealing with the Holy Spirit. When that is done, I'll consider what else you've got.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

It's about fellowship, a concept that your position either doesn't grasp at all, or simply rejects.

The reason you can't do this, is because you can't "explain away" the phrase "they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned".JLB

I did explain it, many times, but it just keeps getting rejected. The metaphor is a farming one, and is about service, not salvation.

You've failed to prove your claims about the verse. Your opinions have not been validated.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, lose their eternal life.
Case Closed.JLB

Why was the word "eternal" ADDED to the verse? It doesn't occur in that verse.

 

[chessman]

Is the Book of Life, the book of temporary life or the book of Eternal Life?

It is the book of life.

Funny that you would think the Book of Life, is not the Book of Eternal Life.

Funny that you would add the word Eternal to John's book.

This seems to come from the same "spirit" as departing from "the faith", is faith in food or things God created,

Yep. Just like you have the kind of spirit that would claim that I think "the faith" in 1 Tim 4 is "faith in food", your spirit is such to claim that I think being blotted out of the book of life means someone is "still saved, though we are no longer in the book of Life"

 

[FreeGrace]

All God's created men and women who believe... and continue to believe.

Explain that from Luke 8:12-13 where Jesus used the aorist tense in v.12 and the present tense in v.13.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

A perfect place to warn against loss of salvation should that be the result of not continuing to believe. So, where is the warning?

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

A perfect place to warn against loss of salvation should that be the result of not continuing to believe. So, where is the warning?

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:5-6

A perfect place to warn against loss of salvation should that be the result of not continuing to believe. So, where is the warning?

Seeing the point yet?

 

[Mustard Socks]

Simple third grade read here folks. The 'unless' is whether or not Christ has really been raised from the dead, not whether or not the Corinthians believed with full commitment. That is no where in the passage.

You're telling us you write at a third grade level?

 

[WIP]

I'm going to request that we drop the 1st grade...2nd grade...3rd grade...implications. Instead of trying so hard to skirt the rules, how about putting the same effort into debating each other's positions with respect for the other person?

 

[JLB]

A perfect place to warn against loss of salvation should that be the result of not continuing to believe. So, where is the warning?

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23


Read the plain words of scripture Freegrace.

The hope of the Gospel is salvation.

We were alienated from God through wicked works, then reconciled to God, through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ... if we continue in the faith, and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for.

If you no longer have faith in Jesus Christ, then you no longer have the hope of salvation. ie you have been moved away from the hope.


Faith in Christ = Reconciled to God
No faith in Christ = No reconciliation with God.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12


JLB

 

[JLB]

Explain that from Luke 8:12-13 where Jesus used the aorist tense in v.12 and the present tense in v.13.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Explain how someone who believes for a while then fall's away, somehow still believes?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Funny that you would add the word Eternal to John's book.

John's book?

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

How is the book of Life, John's book?

Do you believe, a person can be removed from the book of Life, and still have eternal life?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yep. Just like you have the kind of spirit that would claim that I think "the faith" in 1 Tim 4 is "faith in food", your spirit is such to claim that I think being blotted out of the book of life means someone is "still saved, though we are no longer in the book of Life"

You the one who claims "the faith" is faith in what God created, rather than the faith that Paul preached, which is faith in Christ Jesus.

The context is clear, yet you deny the truth.

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of
the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly;15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 3:8-4:5

Those who depart from the faith in Jesus Christ, have no other sacrifice for their sins... but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Like I said. When people add their own words to what others have said in order to make up their own concocted saying mean something else, to them, the case is closed.

I never said or even implied that nor do I think that being blotted out of the book of life means "we are still saved".

So then you admit, that those who are blotted out of the book of Life, have lost the salvation they once had, in which their name was written in the book of Life?

Loss off eternal life.
Loss of salvation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

A perfect place to warn against loss of salvation should that be the result of not continuing to believe. So, where is the warning?

Seeing the point yet?

The only thing I see is you denying what the scripture says.

If we are not part of the house [family] of Jesus Christ, then we are lost.

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Hebrews 3:5-6


We will be a part of His family... if we hold fast the confidence to the end.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


We will be partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence to the end, and not depart from Him, by having an evil heart of unbelief.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You're telling us you write at a third grade level?

What I'm saying is the passages that teach non-OSAS are not complicated passages. They are very plain and simple to understand. I got off the fence about OSAS when I realized how OSAS required me to filter these simple plain passages of scripture through the OSAS doctrinal filter so that they 'don't really mean' what they so plainly say. And so my eyes got opened to the deceitfulness of the OSAS doctrine.

OSAS doctrine is deceitful in the way Genesis 2:17 NASB now suddenly meant to Eve 'you can eat from that tree and you will not die' when that word got mishandled by the serpent, even though the plain words of God were to not eat of it and that she would die if she did. Once I realized I had to change the plain meaning of so many passages of scripture to remove their non-OSAS meaning I got off the proverbial fence about the matter. I decided I'm going to be honest about what the Bible says and not tell anyone plain passages of scripture 'don't really mean what they say' as the serpent did to Eve.

You (Corinthians) are either saved or you are not. And furthermore, Paul conditions their present salvation on whether they believed in vain in the past (or not).

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that is, unless Christ has not really risen from the dead-vs.14,17)." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Verse 2 is not a matter of 'unless you really believed what I preached to you'. Paul himself tells us they did in fact believe the gospel that he preached to them:

"3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed." (1 Corinthians 15:3-11 NASB)

So we see once again I'm being told by OSAS to ignore these plain words, and that they possibly didn't really believe what he preached to them, and so that's what "unless you believed in vain" (vs.2) means. And, I'm being told that I should ignore what Paul himself says "unless you believed in vain" (vs.2) means, which is they have believed in vain if Christ is not risen from the dead (vs.14,17). Which he goes on to explain is not the case.

What's really interesting is, whether or not they 'really' believed his gospel doesn't change the condition Paul sets forth for them being presently saved. He plainly says they are saved by the gospel that was preached to them, and which they received, and on which they stand IF they hold fast the word he preached to them. And that it is believing that has not been in vain because, as he goes on to explain, Christ really is risen from the dead. It's all right there in the passage in plain words. OSAS is the doctrine that tells me to ignore all this and listen to what it says so that this clear non-OSAS passage really means OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

//

Because of what James said about God's grace. It's greater.

Are you actually suggesting that any believer who still exhibits arrogance, boasting, and disobedience loses salvation on that basis?

If so, then please explain what exactly did Christ die for?

Your position continues to reveal a woeful ignorance of the grace of God.

God can oppose any of His children for an unChristian lifestyle. That doesn't mean they lose salvation.

You are the one who brought up the passage to prove that God's grace can be bent to go everywhere, thus the validity of the term 'hyper-grace'. You seem oblivious to the fact that the very passage you brought up to prove your point actually says God's grace does NOT go to the proud. It can not be bent to go there. Is there something about God giving grace to the humble, but, conversely, him opposing the proud that you do not understand? Or is this another example of how OSAS requires me to ignore the plain words of scripture and that James 4:6 NASB which says "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD" doesn't really mean what it says?

Just like an elbow that can't be bent backwards, so it is that God's grace can not be extended to the proud. So, contrary to hyper-grace doctrine, grace does in fact have limitations beyond which it does not get bent. Don't be angry at me, you're the one who brought up the verse to prove the boundless extension of God's grace not knowing that the very verse you used to prove that explains it's limitations.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Basically, "you are saved if you hold fast (possess) the Word which I preached" means this:
you are saved if you possess eternal life that I preached to you.

No, I'm pretty sure it says they are saved if they hold fast THE WORD, not if they have eternal life. Or is this yet another case where I am being told by OSAS that it doesn't really mean what it says and that 'the word' does not really mean the word of the gospel, but rather 'eternal life'?

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

 

[chessman]

John's book?...
How is the book of Life, John's book?

The book of Revelation, which contains Rev 3:5 and Rev 22:18 was given to us by John. I did not say the Book of Life was John's book.

Do you believe, a person can be removed from the book of Life, and still have eternal life?

No. [notice how I answer your questions] It's illogical to it's core for a person who has the gift of eternal life to ever lose it. For 1) it's eternal and 2) irrevocable.

Do you believe someone who has eternal life can ever perish?

Do you belive unbelievers have eternal life?

Do you believe believers have overcome death?

 

[GodsGrace]

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

Justification is not a continual process as sanctification is, it is once and forever accomplished. Justification is similar to an acquittal. It is sin, the nature, that Christ was crucified on the cross to accomplish for those that have that belief. Sins are the action of that nature and it is my belief that only Christians will be judged for sins. Those that reject the message of the gospel, Christ paid your debt for sin( not sins) are condemned. Romans 8:1 states that there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. The reason why is because they are a new creation in Christ Jesus and walk after the Spirit, not the flesh.

Work is for sanctification, not justification. We are continually being sanctified, set apart for the work that God has for us. The relationship between God and man is established, once,through faith; after the relationship has been established, it cannot be broken. It is fellowship that is broken and is restored when we confess our sins.

Hello Dirtfarmer,
I've just begun reading along and you may have answered this already.

I agree with all you've said regarding Justification and Sanctification. It's not that I agree with it, but mainline churches do and I always tend to go along with the theology of mainline Christian churches. I've found here, on this forum, that many make up their very own personal doctrine, and some is made up by independent churches which then leave the mainline church. I do not care for this since Jesus said we are to remain united. I like
Ephesians 2:19-22 We are built up on the foundation of the Apostles.

You say that once the relationship with Christ has been established (highlighted, underlined) it is the fellowship that is broken and restored when we confess our sins.

What do you say about someone who no longer has any faith in our Lord Jesus for their salvation?

Wondering