1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[chessman]

You the one who claims "the faith" is faith in what God created, rather than the faith that Paul preached, which is faith in Christ Jesus.

Wrong and You violate the rules of this thread to state what someone else believes. And for good reason. This one. You wrongly state what I believe about 1 Tim 4 and I've told you that multiple times. Yet you keep wrongly stating my belief.

The context is clear, yet you deny the truth.

I deny zero truth. The truth is, the departure from the faith Paul means in 1 Tim 4:5 is:

forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Do you think deacons should be forbidden to marry?

Those who depart from the faith in Jesus Christ, have no other sacrifice for their sins... but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

The Text doesn't say anything about departing from the faith in Jesus Christ. You've added words you like and deleted the ones you don't like from Paul's statement in 1 Tim 4:1-5.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is salvation that is not eternal salvation at all?

Is a winning lotto ticket not worth a gazillion dollars anymore just because you lost it? Of course not.

It seem to me that it is a reprieve, a putting off to some later date of time.

There is a coming Judgment that even Christians must pass through.
It ain't over till it's over. But if you have faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins you can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will pass through the coming Judgment safely and will enter into the kingdom after that Judgment.

If it is up to us humans to keep ourselves saved then did Jesus lie when in John 5:24 he states; " Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death unto life."

It is incumbent on the believer to continue to believe (that is, trust in the blood of Christ). How that got moved over to the side of 'works' in Paul's faith vs. works of the law argument is beyond me. But that is what happened in the Protestant church. Trusting in Christ, the very thing Paul CONTRASTS with works for justification, has now itself become a work of the damnable works gospel. We've fallen a long way.

"5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)

It is this profound misunderstanding of Paul's 'faith vs. works for justification' argument that has given rise to various hyper-grace OSAS doctrines because it has erroneously concluded that to make trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of sin a continuing requirement to stay justified is to be trying to earn your own justification. How ridiculously ludicrous. If anyone can post the passage that explains that my continuing believing is equivalent to the work that Paul said can not justify, please do so.

At least traditional OSAS retains the requirement of the believer to keep believing in order to be saved. That argument I can respect. But the hyper-grace belief that former believers who have denied the name of Christ are still saved is absolute blasphemy. Unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom of God. They would be totally out of place in a kingdom and nation of holy and righteous people. God will not allow it. The kingdom is the home of the righteous, not the unrighteous. Those who do not have faith are unrighteous. Their appointed place is the lake of fire, not the kingdom of God. Good grief, the church has fallen so far to think otherwise! But Christ did say that truth would be trampled to the ground in the end times. The serpent has been very hard at work destroying the gospel message of Christ. Eve, the bride of the son of God, is still being deceived to this very day.

"I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4 NASB)​

Yes, we have been bearing this deceit beautifully.

 

[chessman]

So then you admit, that those who are blotted out of the book of Life, have lost the salvation they once had, in which their name was written in the book of Life?

Where did I say they lost their salvation they once had?

 

[chessman]

Verse 2 is not a matter of 'unless you really believed what I preached to you'. Paul himself tells us they did in fact believe the gospel that he preached to them:

If they all (every last one) believed in the Gospel Paul preached then why did some of them say there is no ressurection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:12 (LEB) Now if Christ is preached as raised up from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? ​

So we see once again I'm being told by OSAS to ignore these plain words, and that they possibly didn't really believe what he preached to them,

I see that once again we are told by anti-OSAS to ignore the plain words that tell us that some of them did not really believe what Paul preached. Else, they would not believe there is no ressurection.

 

[JLB]

No. [notice how I answer your questions] It's illogical to it's core for a person who has the gift of eternal life to ever lose it. For 1) it's eternal and 2) irrevocable.

Please provide the scripture that says eternal life is irrevocable.
Please provide the scripture that says a person can never lose eternal life.

Eternal life is in Christ.

Those who are "in Christ", have access to the eternal life that is within Him, as they are joined to Him, being "one Spirit", with Him.

This Spirit of Life is "in Christ".

For the law of the Spirit of life "in Christ Jesus" has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

• Those who are removed from being "in Christ", are in fact no longer "in Christ".

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Those who were removed from being "in Christ"; ie cast out as a branch, end up being throw into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide "in Me", he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


Do you believe that people who were "in Christ", then later removed from Christ, in which they are thrown into the fire and burned, still have eternal life?



JLB

 

[JLB]

If they all (every last one) believed in the Gospel Paul preached then why did some of them say there is no ressurection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:12 (LEB) Now if Christ is preached as raised up from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

That's just it, they did believe at one time, when the Gospel was first preached.

That's the whole point!

But their believing, when the Gospel was first preached, became of no value, [their believing was in vain] because they didn't hold fast to what was first preached to them... ie - that Christ was crucified, buried, and rose from the dead on the third day, according to the scriptures.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Where did I say they lost their salvation they once had?

If someone was "in" the book of Life, then later, they were "blotted out of the book of Life", please explain how they can still have eternal life?



JLB

 

[chessman]

He plainly says they are saved by the gospel that was preached to them ...

Yep. They are NOT saved by a little g gospel that thinks Jesus was not raised from the dead. THAT's his point.

 

[JLB]

I deny zero truth. The truth is, the departure from the faith Paul means in 1 Tim 4:5 is:

The faith in 1 Timothy 4, means Faith in Christ Jesus.

Those who depart from "the faith", have discarded the substance of the hope of salvation, in exchange for a false doctrine of demons.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 4:1-5


1. - The faith is either "faith in Christ".
2. - It's faith in what He created: ie food, or marriage...

Which do you claim it is?



JLB

 

[chessman]

Do you believe someone who has eternal life can ever perish?

Do you belive unbelievers have eternal life?

Do you believe believers have overcome death?

JLB Are you going to answer these questions?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hello Dirtfarmer,
I've just begun reading along and you may have answered this already.

I agree with all you've said regarding Justification and Sanctification. It's not that I agree with it, but mainline churches do and I always tend to go along with the theology of mainline Christian churches. I've found here, on this forum, that many make up their very own personal doctrine, and some is made up by independent churches which then leave the mainline church. I do not care for this since Jesus said we are to remain united. I like
Ephesians 2:19-22 We are built up on the foundation of the Apostles.

You say that once the relationship with Christ has been established (highlighted, underlined) it is the fellowship that is broken and restored when we confess our sins.

What do you say about someone who no longer has any faith in our Lord Jesus for their salvation?

Wondering

hello Wondering, dirtfarmer here

When you were a child your relationship between you and your father was because you were born into his family, what could break that relationship? You also had or have fellowship with your father. When you went against his will, what was broken? relationship? Did you stop being his child? NO, what was broken was fellowship and when you told him you were sorry for disobeying, then fellowship was restored.

If you had said, I don't love you any more and you are not my father, did that make it true? No, because of birth, you was, are, and will forever be his child, no matter how much my deny it.

As far as mainline churches and even independent churches, some of their doctrine is incorrect. If you compare it with scripture and allow the Spirit to guide you, you will come to the truth.

It is my belief that Paul is the apostle to the church( Gentiles & Jews). I understand that most don't agree with me, but if you hold to the doctrine that we have to endure to the end for salvation, then how do you interpret the scriptures that state that we are now(present tense) children of God and heirs and joint heirs with Christ.

I don't base my belief on what man( any church) teaches, but on comparing scripture with scripture. If I find any disagreement between them, then I have misinterpreted one of those scriptures. I also believe that we must "rightly divide the word of truth". Some scriptures are written to the Jews and some are written to the body of Christ (both Jew and Gentile) and if we try to apply what was written to the Jews to the Church, we get confusion and vice versa.

 

[JLB]

Yep. They are NOT saved by a little g gospel that thinks Jesus was not raised from the dead. THAT's his point.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [G2722] that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2


They received the gospel Paul preached, the very gospel by which they are saved, if they hold fast that word which he preached to them.

If they don't meet the conditional "if", of holding fast [continuing to believe] the gospel message, then their believing they did at the first, will have been in vain.

Same thing Jesus taught us in the parable of the sower.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep [G2722] it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:13-15


Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yep. They are NOT saved by a little g gospel that thinks Jesus was not raised from the dead. THAT's his point.

Paul plainly tells us they received and believed the original gospel he preached to them:

"11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed." (1 Corinthians 15:11 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

But now they are being led astray into a false gospel (1 Corinthians 15:12 NASB), a gospel that even you acknowledge can not save. Thank you for finally acknowledging non-OSAS!

 

[Runner]

Yawn. I'll check back in at post #18,432, because I feel sure by then this centuries-old debate will have been settled.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see that once again we are told by anti-OSAS to ignore the plain words that tell us that some of them did not really believe what Paul preached.

Uh, I think you forgot that was your argument. Not mine.

They did indeed believe the gospel when Paul preached it to them (1 Corinthians 15:11 NASB), but you were the one trying to insist that "unless you have believed in vain" (vs.2) meant that some of them did not 'really' believe (past tense) the gospel word Paul preached to them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yawn. I'll check back in at post #18,432, because I feel sure by then this centuries-old debate will have been settled.

Don't get lost.
It's extremely naive of you to think that the serpent would have stopped deceiving the church with false doctrines.
There will always be those who propagate false doctrines, even when they see the plain evidence that proves their doctrine false.
You need to wake up.

The issue is settled for those who refuse to accept the 'it doesn't really mean what it says' explanation to make all the non-OSAS doctrines plainly written in our Bibles now suddenly become OSAS doctrines.

 

[JLB]

Do you believe someone who has eternal life can ever perish?

Yes they can perish, if they are removed from being "in" Christ, whereby they once had eternal life, which is defined as knowing Him.

Do you believe a person can have eternal life outside of Christ?

Do you belive unbelievers have eternal life?

No

Do you believe that someone who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is still a "believer"?

Do you believe believers have overcome death?

I would ask you to provide the scripture that says "believers" have overcome death.

Those who "overcome" shall not be hurt by the second death.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’
Revelation 2:11

I will say this: Is someone who believe's for a while, then no longer believe's, still qualified as a "believer".

Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5


Do you believe the "unbelieving" will overcome death?

It is possible for people to be believing for a while, then return to unbelieving.


From what I read in the bible, the unbelieving will not do well.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Runner , post #801 was written for people like you, not for the chessman's and freegrace's among us. I post here for people like you and dirtfarmer and others who are simply victims of the deceit that false teachers have been destroying the church with since the Protestant Reformation.

OSAS is a strong deceit that blinds and indoctrinates the minds of many believers. But if you sober up and decide you're not going to accept all the OSAS arguments based on 'it doesn't really mean what it says' you'll see that the Bible is very, very clear that it is incumbent on the believer to continue to believe in order to keep the justification they have received through faith in Christ's one-time sacrifice of himself on the altar of heaven.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Paul plainly tells us they received and believed the original gospel he preached to them:

"11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed." (1 Corinthians 15:11 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

But now they are being led astray into a false gospel (1 Corinthians 15:12 NASB), a gospel that even you acknowledge can not save. Thank you for finally acknowledging non-OSAS!

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

What was it that made their faith a vain faith? V12 last phrase, " how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead." You do understand that "resurrection of the dead" is in reference to bodily resurrection. What made those in verse 2 faith vain, was not that they quite believing, but they didn't believe in the bodily resurrection.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What made those in verse 2 faith vain, was not that they quite believing, but they didn't believe in the bodily resurrection.

For them to have received and believed Paul's original gospel of a resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-3 NASB), and then for some of them to now not believe in a resurrection of the dead (vs.12) most certainly is them quitting believing. How is believing one thing yesterday, but not today, not a person quitting believing?????

11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
12Now if Christ is preached , that He has been raised from the dead
(and you believed it--see above), how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
(1 Corinthians 15:11-12 NASB italics in original, bold and parenthesis mine)​