1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[Mustard Socks]

What I'm saying is the passages that teach non-OSAS are not complicated passages. They are very plain and simple to understand. I got off the fence about OSAS when I realized how OSAS required me to filter these simple plain passages of scripture through the OSAS doctrinal filter so that they 'don't really mean' what they so plainly say. And so my eyes got opened to the deceitfulness of the OSAS doctrine.

OSAS doctrine is deceitful in the way Genesis 2:17 NASB now suddenly meant to Eve 'you can eat from that tree and you will not die' when that word got mishandled by the serpent, even though the plain words of God were to not eat of it and that she would die if she did. Once I realized I had to change the plain meaning of so many passages of scripture to remove their non-OSAS meaning I got off the proverbial fence about the matter. I decided I'm going to be honest about what the Bible says and not tell anyone plain passages of scripture 'don't really mean what they say' as the serpent did to Eve.

What I see you arguing then in the non-OSAS passages that you believe are there speaking so as to say salvation is not eternal, is biblical contradiction does exist in scripture. And now you've gotten off the fence as you say and chosen the contradiction that you agree with.
Being OSAS scriptures do exist and you say there are those scriptures that refute OSAS, that is a contradiction in God's divine inspired word.
Which is to say , God promised eternal salvation and then said, in passages you believe are there, just kidding.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I see you arguing then in the non-OSAS passages that you believe are there speaking so as to say salvation is not eternal, is biblical contradiction does exist in scripture.

Whether or not I can lose eternal life while I'm still in the body does not make the life God's promises to us now not eternal. That's like saying your winning lotto ticket is not worth a gazillion dollars if you lose it. The ticket remains worth a gazillion dollars. Whether you posses it or not is what is alterable.

The problem with your thinking is you and many others are simply incapable of understanding any thought outside of what you've been taught. I was once like that, too. That's how indoctrinations work. They aren't simply teachings. They are teachings that blind the eyes of the person to being able to see any other teaching about the subject.

The way I can know if a person has the blindness of an indoctrination is they are only capable of understanding my opposing argument according to what they have been taught is the opposing argument. No matter what I say they always hear what I say their way. For example, I can post billboards all over town proclaiming that justification is by faith all by itself not by works, but all they can hear me say when I say you must continue to do that believing that justifies is that justification is by works. That kind of deafness shows me I'm dealing with a hardened indoctrination.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And now you've gotten off the fence as you say and chosen the contradiction that you agree with.

The interesting thing is, my non-OSAS argument does not nullify and contradict the passages of scripture that OSAS uses as favorites to prove OSAS (i.e. John 5:24 NASB, John 10:28 NASB). But the OSAS argument nullifies all the passages I use that prove non-OSAS, thus the reason they have to resort to the 'it doesn't really mean what it says' argument to make my non-OSAS passages become OSAS.

 

[dirtfarmer]

For them to have received and believed Paul's original gospel of a resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-3 NASB), and then for some of them to now not believe in a resurrection of the dead (vs.12) most certainly is them quitting believing. How is believing one thing yesterday, but not today, not a person quitting believing?????

11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
12Now if Christ is preached , that He has been raised from the dead
(and you believed it--see above), how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
(1 Corinthians 15:11-12 NASB italics in original, bold and parenthesis mine)​

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

I don't see that verse 12 proves that they believed the bodily resurrection and then stopped believing in body resurrection. In fact, I see as the opposite: they never believed in the bodily resurrection.

I will cease from discussing this subject. It seems to be "He said, she said" type of discussion.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Whether or not I can lose eternal life while I'm still in the body does not make the life God's promises to us now not eternal. That's like saying your winning lotto ticket is not worth a gazillion dollars if you lose it. The ticket remains worth a gazillion dollars. Whether you posses it or not is what is alterable.

I would agree.

The problem with your thinking is you and many others are simply incapable of understanding any thought outside of what you've been taught.

It's attitudes like that that defeat your position.

I was once like that, too. That's how indoctrinations work. They aren't simply teachings. They are teachings that blind the eyes of the person to being able to see any other teaching about the subject.

As does that judgment that isn't about debating the scriptures. But rather, about casting aspersions defending your position.
How do you find it in your heart to patronize fellow Christians ?

The way I can know if a person has the blindness of an indoctrination is they are only capable of understanding my opposing argument according to what they have been taught is the opposing argument.

Perhaps you don't see it. But your remarks there reflect the biblical truism, as ye judge so too are ye judged.

No matter what I say they always hear what I say their way. For example, I can post billboards all over town proclaiming that justification is by faith all by itself not by works, but all they can hear me say when I say you must continue to do that believing that justifies is that justification is by works. That kind of deafness shows me I'm dealing with a hardened indoctrination.

I don't think the scriptures lie or contradict themselves.
My view is that and to put it simply rather than wallOtext like I sometimes do, is to say, God said he calls those who will be saved to him. Those who are attuned and receptive to that call respond. Jesus said, those persons who are called and do respond shall never be taken from his hand.
I trust Christ knowing the meaning of never before I believe any fellow mortal who presumes to rephrase.

In my view, those who argue we can lose the grace God bestowed, and everything Jesus did and died to give us so as to seal that eternal covenant, are arguing from their place with the dead. Dead in our sins as we all are, were. They don't believe the eternal truth of Jesus covenant because they are not in it.
Even the disciples spoke of those who left the side of the Master. They left because they were never with the Master.
Jesus came to save the whole world. That doesn't mean every individual in the world knows that. Feels attuned to do better for themselves. Or are in the palm of Jesus.

 

[Mustard Socks]

The interesting thing is, my non-OSAS argument does not nullify and contradict the passages of scripture that OSAS uses as favorites to prove OSAS (i.e. John 5:24 NASB, John 10:28 NASB). But the OSAS argument nullifies all the passages I use that prove non-OSAS, thus the reason they have to resort to the 'it doesn't really mean what it says' argument to make my non-OSAS passages become OSAS.

What I think you are overlooking is the entire mission of Jesus Christ. And I make that observation, some would say judgment, based on your arguing that people who believe in the eternal that Jesus taught are delusional. While what Jesus taught in your opinion is not what Jesus meant.
Once saved always saved.
Provide the passage or accept you are in error and show us the exact scripture, chapter and verse, that states, God retracts his grace from whom he chooses because they act in a way that makes him do that.

Because what you overlook constantly is one word: Repentance.

The prodigal son parable tells you all you need to know to prove salvation in Christ by God's grace is eternal.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's attitudes like that that defeat your position.

Perhaps defensiveness and pride (if those be present) make it so my position can not be 'heard'. You can't blame me for someone rejecting my suggestion that people simply don't have the capacity to 'hear' my argument if the reason they don't hear is because they are too proud and defensive to hear it, if that be the case. Think about it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As does that judgment that isn't about debating the scriptures. But rather, about casting aspersions defending your position.
How do you find it in your heart to patronize fellow Christians ?

Perhaps you don't see it. But your remarks there reflect the biblical truism, as ye judge so too are ye judged.

Lol, it's funny that you must have failed to notice I included myself in being overcome by blinding indoctrinations.
Is this just another example of what I'm talking about? You seem to not be able to 'hear' what I'm plainly saying.

I don't think the scriptures lie or contradict themselves.
My view is that and to put it simply rather than wallOtext like I sometimes do, is to say, God said he calls those who will be saved to him. Those who are attuned and receptive to that call respond. Jesus said, those persons who are called and do respond shall never be taken from his hand.
I trust Christ knowing the meaning of never before I believe any fellow mortal who presumes to rephrase.

So we are to just ignore the whole counsel of scripture that shows us this promise is contingent on continuing to believe? I can not in all honestly embrace the OSAS argument that requires me to isolate passages of scripture away from the whole context of scripture. That's called 'not rightly dividing the word of God'.

In my view, those who argue we can lose the grace God bestowed, and everything Jesus did and died to give us so as to seal that eternal covenant, are arguing from their place with the dead.

I'm not offended, but what was that about judging you posted above?
I am presently trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins (a.k.a. justification). Therefore I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am saved, and will pass through the coming Judgement safely. It's if I abandon my trust in Christ that I will no longer have what I need to pass through the coming Judgment safely.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Perhaps defensiveness and pride (if those be present) make it so my position can not be 'heard'. You can't blame me for someone rejecting my suggestion that people simply don't have the capacity to 'hear' my argument if the reason they don't hear is because they are too proud and defensive to hear it, if that be the case. Think about it.

And again, right back at you. See, as I read you, you're arguing completely contrary to God's own teaching that is in writing.

Whereas I am defending God's own teaching that appears in writing. It isn't that Jesus died to give temporary , by your acts you shall retain your salvation, salvation covenant. He didn't die so that people could come to him and then say, oops, sorry, made a mistake I'm leaving! And then be gone forever because Jesus holds a grudge. And those who fall from the path of righteousness are not allowed "back in".
People who are dead in their sins, which is everyone on earth before they find Christ, don't find Christ, are re-born, re-newed in the spirit, and then decide they're going to by human will and choice undo everything God's Holy Spirit did to and for them. That makes people more powerful than God's omniscient will.
Sure, people can fall away, backslide. Which is the prodigal son parable in a nutshell. But that doesn't mean that prodigal son was no longer the son of the Father he obstinately left behind . That means the son thought he could do his own thing without the Father's wisdom imbuing his life and be just fine. And the son ended up eating with the pigs instead.
And when he realized what he'd done, humbled himself and returned home, his Father recognized his son. Welcomed his son home and celebrated his son's return. Because the son repented. And because he was still part of the family.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"A perfect place to warn against loss of salvation should that be the result of not continuing to believe. So, where is the warning?"

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Read the plain words of scripture Freegrace.

Did. My question stands. Where is any warning of loss of salvation here?? This passage does NOT say anything about loss of salvation?

I already explained the subjunctive conditional phrase at the beginning of v.23 "if indeed you continue in the faith". It has nothing to do with loss of salvation, so why quote verses that don't support or teach your claims?

The "if" is about what Paul wrote in v.22; "to present you holy, blameless and above reproach".

iow, a believer HAS TO CONTINUE IN THE FAITH in order to be "presented holy, blameless and above reproach". That's what the 2 verse are about.

Faith in Christ = Reconciled to God
No faith in Christ = No reconciliation with God.

And I agree fully. What we totally disagree on is about losing salvation. You've not yet provided any verse that says such a thing. With ALL the verses you've presented, one is FORCE to ASSUME the verse teaches what you've claimed. But no verse says so outright.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12
JLB

I totally agree.

 

[chessman]

Do you believe someone who has eternal life can ever perish?

Yes they can perish,

Well there you have it. Your position is some who have believed and have eternal life will perish. Yet Jesus' position is that everyone who believes will never perish:

John 3:16 (LEB) For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. ​

eternal life, which is defined as knowing Him.

That's one definition. Another one is to not perish.

Do you believe that someone who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is still a "believer"?

No. Unbelievers become believers by believing. Believers who no longer believe have become exbelievers.

I would ask you to provide the scripture that says "believers" have overcome death.

Those who "overcome" shall not be hurt by the second death.

That's correct. And besides there we have (among others):

1 John 3:14 (NASB) We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1 John 5:4, 13 (NASB) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.​

Brethen, born of God, have overcome death. They have passed out of death into eternal life.

Do you believe the "unbelieving" will overcome death?

No.

It is possible for people to be believing for a while, then return to unbelieving.

No.
Is it possible for a murderer to be someone who has not murdered?

Is it possible for a believer to be someone who has not believed?

 

[FreeGrace]

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Explain how someone who believes for a while then fall's away, somehow still believes?
JLB

Why haven't you bothered to read any of my posts? I've already answered this many times. Please pay attention.

One who ceases to believe DOES NOT believe. Got it?

Now, a repeated question for you that has YET to be answered:
What verse SAYS plainly that if one ceases to believe they cease to be saved?

I'm not interested in anyone's opinions, but what the Word of God actually SAYS. And please don't give a verse that one is forced to ASSUME means ceasing to believe means ceasing to be saved.

Thank you.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"A perfect place to warn against loss of salvation should that be the result of not continuing to believe. So, where is the warning?

Seeing the point yet?"

The only thing I see is you denying what the scripture says.

That's an extremely odd claim, since you've never quoted any verse that says what you keep claiming. What I have seen from your posts are only opinions and verses that force one to make HUGE assumptions about what it means.

We will be partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence to the end, and not depart from Him, by having an evil heart of unbelief.
JLB

Since your theology seems to have no room for the concept of fellowship, there is no point in explaining the verse you've quoted from.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am defending God's own teaching that appears in writing.

...but not all of it. You are ignoring the many scriptures that make it so you can not interpret what you defend the way you do.

 

[chessman]

They received the gospel Paul preached, the very gospel by which they are saved, if they hold fast that word which he preached to them.

Unless they believed in vain as some among them did. Plainly.

1 Corinthians 15:12, 17, 34 Now if Christ is preached as raised up from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is empty; you are still in your sins.

Sober up correctly and stop sinning, for some have no knowledge of God—I say this to your shame.

Paul answers his own question, if you'll simply read on:

The reason some said there was no resurrection was because their faith (past tense from back when they believed in vain) was empty. Those among them had no knowledge of God.

Do you think those with an empty faith were saved?

 

[chessman]

They did indeed believe the gospel when Paul preached it to them (1 Corinthians 15:11 NASB),

Some did, some did not.

1 Corinthians 15:12, 17, 34 Now if Christ is preached as raised up from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is empty; you are still in your sins. Sober up correctly and stop sinning, for some have no knowledge of God—I say this to your shame. ​

How about you, do you believe someone's empty faith who has no knowledge of God is saved?

 

[FreeGrace]

You are the one who brought up the passage to prove that God's grace can be bent to go everywhere, thus the validity of the term 'hyper-grace'.

I've never once even hinted that God's grace can be "bent", whatever that may mean to you. It means nothing to me, since the Bible doesn't teach that God's grace can be bent anyway.

Here's the verse again: James 4:6
But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble." NIV

The concept is that God gives us MORE grace, or GREATER (NASB) grace. To humble believers, that is.

What does Eph 2:8 teach: we are saved by GRACE through faith. That is grace to everyone who believes. And yet God gives us more grace.

There is no such thing as "hyper-grace". That's just your opinion of God not taking away salvation from His children who stray, wander off, rebel, etc. Your view is to see them all "burn in hell", apparently. But God is a God of grace, after all. 1 Peter 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. NIV

I'm sure the meaning of "all" is familiar to all of us. All encompassing grace.

The view of loss of salvation must conclude that Christ's sacrifice just wasn't all that all encompassing. That He didn't really die for all sins.

You seem oblivious to the fact that the very passage you brought up to prove your point actually says God's grace does NOT go to the proud.

Are you kidding?? The verse DEFINITELY does NOT say what is being claimed. Please read the verse again. With such careless reading of Scripture, it's no wonder your theology is what it is.

The verse SAYS that God opposes the proud. Nothing about "God's grace does NOT go to the proud". Your side must stop assuming so much. Or read better. Or both.

Even in divine discipline, it is in grace. If we were to receive what we deserve, we wouldn't survive it. Your view cannot be found in Scripture.

Is there something about God giving grace to the humble, but, conversely, him opposing the proud that you do not understand?

It's pretty clear how much your own view of God's grace and what Scripture SAYS that you do not understand.

Or is this another example of how OSAS requires me to ignore the plain words of scripture and that James 4:6 NASB which says "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD" doesn't really mean what it says?

Why speak of "plain words of Scripture" when you've just demonstrated a faulty reading of James 4:6??

 

[FreeGrace]

No, I'm pretty sure it says they are saved if they hold fast THE WORD, not if they have eternal life.

Where does one find eternal life, if not from the written Word, which describes the LIVING WORD, Jesus Christ? You're just balking here.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

When a person believes, they HAVE the Word and eternal life. They are NOT "holding on" to it, as your view seems to be. As if one can then let go of it. It doesn't teach that at all.

 

[chessman]

Uh, I think you forgot that was your argument. Not mine.

You think wrong. It was my argument and still is. It comes straight from Paul. There were some there (and here now) that have a vain, empty faith. They really have no knowledge of God:

1 Corinthians 15:12, 17, 34 (LEB) Now if Christ is preached as raised up from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is empty; you are still in your sins. Sober up correctly and stop sinning, for some have no knowledge of God—I say this to your shame. ​

Your thinking that all Corinthians were saved is not supported from the passage. Neither Paul's sentence and logical IF, THEN, ELSE statement in Verses 1-2 nor the rest of the chapter.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please provide the scripture that says eternal life is irrevocable.
Please provide the scripture that says a person can never lose eternal life.

Eternal life is in Christ.

Those who are "in Christ", have access to the eternal life that is within Him, as they are joined to Him, being "one Spirit", with Him.

This Spirit of Life is "in Christ".

For the law of the Spirit of life "in Christ Jesus" has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

• Those who are removed from being "in Christ", are in fact no longer "in Christ".

• What you've repeatedy failed to provide is any verse that teaches that anyone can be removed from Christ. We are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit of promise, but it seems you've rejected that promise.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

As long as one rejects the doctrine of fellowship, that one cannot properly and rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Do you believe that people who were "in Christ", then later removed from Christ, in which they are thrown into the fire and burned, still have eternal life?
JLB

Please provide clear evidence that any believer has been "later removed from Christ". Not verses that forces one to assume such a meaning.