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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
The problem is that all those passages do not prove non-OSAS. And ALL of those passages have been reasonably explained to show that they are not warnings of loss of salvation, but warnings of loss of fellowship, and loss of eternal reward, and promises of divine discipline while in the body, which can include physical death.
All of which you've rejected, but without any attempt to explain why the passages do teach loss of salvation.
The error here is to claim that people "don't hear" your argument. of course we all hear it. And have thoroughly REFUTED it repeatedly.
How can one refute a view if they don't understand (hear) it? Not possible. So, yes, we've heard you loud and clear, and we hav REFUTED it soundly.
So what actually hasn't been "heard" is the refutation.
There the claim is made again, yet without any Scripture to support it. The promise of salvation is NOT continent upon the fantasy claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. It just ain't there. That's just an assumption, and a huge one at that.
lol. That's exactly what has had to be done in order to come to your opinion.
Mustard Socks
Member
No, I read that. Maybe you're still blind just from a different side of the fence.
God's light bless your heart,
Mustard Socks
Member
1 Peter 1:20 speaks of Jesus being chosen before the creation of the world. And Ephesians 1:4 ( KJV ) says about us, those faithful to our Lord, According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
If all this salvation grace issue were conceived before the creation of the world, and God knew his faithful before that also , wouldn't that say God's will in choosing those believers in Him and Jesus makes it impossible for the chosen to revoke what God intended before the world we inhabit was made?
If all this salvation grace issue were conceived before the creation of the world, and God knew his faithful before that also , wouldn't that say God's will in choosing those believers in Him and Jesus makes it impossible for the chosen to revoke what God intended before the world we inhabit was made?
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is another reason why I don't agree with OSAS doctrine. It suggests that all prodigals return home, thus proving that you can never lose your salvation. It's an inaccurate conclusion because the premise is false--not all prodigals come back home. Israel certainly did not come home to somehow prove the validity of this erroneous OSAS argument.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Just another example of the main reason why I'm not OSAS. I'm being asked to change 'the gospel which I preached to you' (1 Corinthians 15:1 NASB) to 'eternal life' itself. That's not what the passage says. There is no honest way to make the word of the gospel and the actual eternal life it secures (if you believe that word) interchangeable in order to defend an OSAS doctrine.
Besides, it's a really big 'duh' moment to say 'you are saved if you have eternal life'. That goes without saying and has no value toward what Paul is addressing in the passage. But it's entirely consistent with the context of the passage for Paul to say 'you are saved by the gospel word I preached to you if you retain that message' (vs.2 paraphrased)--which he does, lol! (John says the same thing in 1 John 2:24 NASB). But you are asking me to ignore what he actually says and insert what you want there in order to make this non-OSAS passage OSAS. That's deceptive.
But Mustard Socks never said anything about all prodigals coming back home. He said it would be "impossible for the chosen to revoke what God intended". And the Bible never says that man can revoke any of God's gifts.
So it's your conclusion that is inaccurate, not his.
Mustard Socks
Member
No, not all prodigals return home. The point of the parable as I see it was to address those that wish to, fear to, but persevere and take the change to.
I think those who do not return home were addressed by the disciples themselves. 1 John Chapter 2
Verse 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6
These passages teach us that:
- Some who are "in Him", can and will be "removed" from Him... He takes away.
- Those who are "in Him", that don't remain in Him, can and will be thrown into the fire and burned.
I have posted these passages many times, only to have you either ignore what is said, or attempt to redefine what is said, and even attempt to say that "thrown into the fire and burned", means removed from Christian service.
JLB
Did the prodigal son "return" home?
Was the prodigal son welcomed back by the "father"?
JLB
1 Peter 1:6-9 says we shall receive the end [result] of our faith, the salvation of our souls, after we have been tested.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9
The context of verse 20:
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 1 Peter 1:17-21
- We will be judged according to each of our work.
- It is those who believe, who have their faith and hope in God.
Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, no longer have their faith or hope in God.
JLB
Please provide the scriptures that says we are sealed "in Him".
I believe what the bible teaches, not the twisting heresy of man's false doctrine.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14
The Holy Spirit is God's seal of approval, to those who believe the Gospel.
This verse does not say we are "sealed in Christ", like some vacume sealed jar with no chance to depart.
Seal in this verse describes a King's "seal of authentication", as put on any important document to authenticate it.
The science of sealing by canning, started around the 1800's, and was not even invented back then, so it's impossible that Paul was referring to "sealing" as the modern day term is used.
Sealed - Strong's G4972 - sphragizō
to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
- for security: from Satan
- since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
- in order to mark a person or a thing
- to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
- angels are said to be sealed by God
- in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
- to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
- of a written document
- to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be
- to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
Those who believe for a while, then return to "unbelieving", are no longer qualified as believers.
JLB
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Yes, those who believe will never perish.
If a person no longer believe's, then they have returned to "unbelieving", since they no longer believe.
The "unbelieving", will have their part in the lake of fire.
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8
Those who overcome, shall inherit the kingdom of God, and will have become God's son.
JLB
I asked this:
"I'm patiently waiting for any plainly worded verse that teaches that a former believer can be or will be or has been removed from being "in" Christ.. Where is it?"
Just as a farmer discards FROM USE OR SERVICE any branch that does not produce fruit, so God will set aside/discard FROM SERVICE OR USE any believer who does not produce fruit. The passage is about fruit production, not how to keep or lose salvation.
The key verse in the passage is: John 15:8
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. NIV
Trying to apply this passage to how to lose salvation misses the entire point of the passage.
And I have adequately explained WHY "thrown into the fire and burned" DOES refer to removal from service/usefulness. And you've failed to show otherwise. Your claims are without merit.
"I'm patiently waiting for any plainly worded verse that teaches that a former believer can be or will be or has been removed from being "in" Christ.. Where is it?"
No they don't teach that. That's your mis-interpretation of the passage, which has already been explained very adequately. You've taken a farming or agricultural metaphor and tried to spiritualize it.
Just as a farmer discards FROM USE OR SERVICE any branch that does not produce fruit, so God will set aside/discard FROM SERVICE OR USE any believer who does not produce fruit. The passage is about fruit production, not how to keep or lose salvation.
The key verse in the passage is: John 15:8
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. NIV
Trying to apply this passage to how to lose salvation misses the entire point of the passage.
I've not "redefined" anything. That's your style. Your error is to ASSUME every mention of "fire" refers to hell. Try that on 1 Cor 3:14-15. Doesn't work. And it doesn't work here either.
And I have adequately explained WHY "thrown into the fire and burned" DOES refer to removal from service/usefulness. And you've failed to show otherwise. Your claims are without merit.
You keep asking and I have kept answering this question. Why keep on asking?
Eph 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit NIV
I'll even boil it down for ease of understanding:
you were included IN CHRIST when you having believed, were marked IN HIM with a seal
Please quit asking the same question over and over when it's been answered. This doesn't give any credibility to your position.
In the strongest terms, I disagree completely. Your responses and posts support that.
Sure. Thanks for agreeing with me.
Sure. So far, so good.
It really does. In your translation, v.13 begins with IN HIM you (believer) trusted. Then it goes to say "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit". It doesn't say "sealed in the Holy Spirit". The sealing with the Spirit refers to being IN HIM.
I believe the difficulty with your position is that when a fully adequate explanation is given for the OSAS position or against any of the anti-OSAS position, your position just doesn't want to believe the truth.
chessman
Member
Yep, every one of them. I mean, that's what Jesus said concerning the future of every unbeliever that belives in Him in the present.
Same as in Rev 21:
Revelation 21:7-8 (LEB) The one who conquers will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.
Umm, that's NOT what the verse says. Nope, nothing about "returning to unbelieving" in the verse. Why add to the book of Revelation words that simply aren't there???