1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[JLB]

I do NOT deny all liars or all unbelievers will have their part in the Lake of Fire (the second death).

Do you believe it's somehow impossible for Christians to be liars?

There is no Scripture that says "all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire". You snip the part you like out and deny there is any distinction being made of these folks from that of the overcomers spoken of in verse 7.

Revelation 21:8 (LEB) But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.

Well you just contradicted yourself.

Here is what Revelation 21:8 plainly says.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Does this verse say that "all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire" ?

• Yes
• No

JLB

 

[JLB]

Plus, You deny that Paul teaches us that God's gifts are irrevocable because the verse says gifts and callings.

Romans 11:29 (LEB) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Well guess what, using your method of 'interpretation' all liars do not have their part in the LoF. They would have to be a liar and be a murderer and be a coward and be an unbeliever and be a detestable person and be a sexually immoral person and be a sorcerer and be an idolater, to meet your method of interpretation.

Why snip out liar or unbeliever in Rev 21:8 when you think it's false that God's gifts are irrevocable from Rom 11:29???

Very hypocritical!

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

This is what Revelation 21:8 warns us of.

Those Christians who practice idolatry, sexual immorality, lying, sorcery and the like, shall have their part in the lake of fire.

This is undeniable.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


Those unbelieving Jews who rejected the Gospel, still have the gifts and calling of repentance available to them, if they do not continue in unbelief.

That is the context, of Romans 11:29


25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:28-32

Paul teaches us those [unbelieving Jews] have the "gifts and calling" of God still available to them, for God has not rejected them, if they do not continue in unbelief.

The object of the context, of verse 29 is referencing the unbelieving Jews, that still have the "gifts and calling" available to them as God is "without regret" that He has called them through the Gospel.


That is what the context reveals, and what the word ametamelētos means from the original.

unregretted; irrevocable - Strong's G278 - ametamelētos

not repentant of, unregretted

This Greek word, used in only one other place, in 2 Corinthians 7:10

10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
2 Corinthians 7:10

That is a key principle: For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation.

In Romans 11:29 the reference is to unbelieving Jews who have the calling available to them, but have not yet repented, and believed.


Therefore, they can not yet have the gift of eternal life.



JLB

 

[chessman]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:28-32

Paul teaches us those [unbelieving Jews] have the "gifts and calling" of God still available to them, for God has not rejected them, if they do not continue in unbelief.

Romans 11:1, 7, 13, 25, 28-32 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be!
...
For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. What then? What Israel was searching for, this it did not obtain. But the elect obtained it, and the rest were hardened, Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you formerly were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of the disobedience of these, so also these have now been disobedient for your mercy, in order that they also may now be shown mercy. For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all. ​

Red and yellow make orange!

Paul teaches us [believing Gentiles] that we have the "gifts and calling" of God because God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. For God has not rejected any of His people. Never.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Like I say, the parable speaks nothing of the son who does not return. And yet OSAS uses the parable to prove that OSAS is true because the father received the returning son. Which is actually more in line with a non-OSAS argument--the son had to return in order to continue to be saved. But I do not use it for that purpose. There's too many other plain passages of scripture that teach us non-OSAS.

You do know hyper-grace OSAS says the son who does not return remains saved, don't you?

Someone who is hyper-anti-grace is not open to reason.
It is interesting to note that in Jesus telling of the prodigal son what is not often recalled is the prodigals older brother. He who was not happy at his younger brother being received back by the Father. The older son is jealous and envious.Nor is he happy that the father gives a party to celebrate the younger son's return. Reminds me of Luke 15 when all of heaven rejoices when someone repents.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Romans 11:1, 7, 13, 25, 28-32 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be!
...
For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. What then? What Israel was searching for, this it did not obtain. But the elect obtained it, and the rest were hardened, Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you formerly were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of the disobedience of these, so also these have now been disobedient for your mercy, in order that they also may now be shown mercy. For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all. ​

Red and yellow make orange!

Paul teaches us [believing Gentiles] that we have the "gifts and calling" of God because God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. For God has not rejected any of His people. Never.

Well said .

Romans 11:29 shuts all naysayers down I think.

Rather than defend what God said being it is His eternal word, maybe we should consider why there is a vehement argument that eternal salvation in Christ is not truth in scripture. Or in their life. Which would be the natural inference being the Word does not equivocate. God's grace is a gift to the repentant who felt the call to be one with Christ. It is irrevocable. Why then would one so secure argue they are not?

 

[Mike]

Rather, what is apparent is that you prefer page after page to argue against eternal life in Christ. While attacking with personal insults, and allusions to levy insults by way of scriptural inference, against those with whom you wage your disagreement.

I believe it's human nature to see the insults that are levied by the opposing side of a debate and overlook those on yours, but do not make the mistake in putting the blame squarely on the anti-OSAS members. From a bystander's perspective, there is too much of this on both sides. I'd say it's equally shared.

I am beginning to think we've warned both sides enough to warrant yet another closure of discussions on this topic. Both side continuously accuse the other of misleading others, ignoring scripture, and making scripture up intentionally. Apparently, it is inconceivable that there is honest interpretation driving both conclusions of the same scripture.

Last call! Last call for level-headed debate. If these accusations persist, this discussion will have to be closed. Thank you.

 

[Mustard Socks]

I think for the proposition to exist wherein it is stated a believer can lose their salvation by their own choice, it must be ascertained as to what is salvation.
If someone can lose their salvation it means they worked to obtain it. Otherwise, their free choice would not be a factor in the antithesis; un-saved.

The scriptures that are respected as God's word reflecting his will state that we are saved by God's grace. To understand that it must be ascertained as to what is , grace.

If grace is something God bestows of his own sovereign will, we must then ascertain what sovereign means when applied to Creator.
if*edited) that which is bestowed is not so because of our will and act, but by God's, and we can shrug off that gift by God's choice of bestowal, then that would necessarily imply our free will supersedes God's omniscience. When before He thought to create all things, he thought to bestow a His sovereign will pre-planned for that one who he would know would choose not to be saved in God's grace. After being so, by God's grace.John 2:9

I don't read any scriptures that allude to that. Because to leave God's gift of bestowal that is grace, one would be greater in their will than God's omniscience that thought us worthy.
And when Jesus stated those whom the Father has given him come because the Father called them. And those ones once in Jesus hand, care, spirit, can never be removed by man. John 10:28-30.
When Jesus declares those in his hand by His Father's grace cannot be taken away by any man, I don't imagine any man or woman in his hand is an exception by a substitution unwritten clause that says the elect can elect to jump.
And thereby prove, no-one, was actually a mistake to say. And contained an incomprehensible fail factor to Jesus' thoughts.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Like I say, the parable speaks nothing of the son who does not return.

Here's an aditional thought.
Very often the scriptures refer to something that was contained specifically or alluded to, in a different passage. Book, chapter, verse.
Perhaps the parable of the prodigal son didn't speak of the son that did not return because it had already been discussed in, John 2:19/ “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

 

[Mustard Socks]

45 pages later..John 3:16.

Amen!

No arguing with that.

 

[JLB]

Rather, what is apparent is that you prefer page after page to argue against eternal life in Christ. While attacking with personal insults, and allusions to levy insults by way of scriptural inference, against those with whom you wage your disagreement. If anyone here appears to be ignorant of scripture and consecrated in knowledge of The Word, it is not Free. It is you.

Those who ignore the scriptures and the warnings from the Spirit of God, will have no excuse on the Day of Judgement, especially me.

Eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Romans 2:7

Paul counts himself as well as those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, as those who have the hope of eternal life.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7


Everlasting life is given at the end, to those who bear fruit unto holiness.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

However, what is just as true, is the fact, that those Christians who choose to live is sin, and practice the works of the flesh, will reap the wages of their sin, which is death; Eternal Death.

To put it plainly and then I'm going to insure I do not have to witness the opposition you make public consistently, Jesus said no one shall take those who are called by God to Him from His hand.

Please provide the scripture for this theory.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

If I understand loss of salvation, it is reverting back to the old man of sin. The problem I see with this doctrine is, who has the power to bring the old man back to life? We are told in scripture that the believer is crucified with Christ and the life that we now live is not us but Christ, Galatians 2:20.

Would we have salvation if Christ was still on the cross? So if we are in Christ, as scripture states, then we are not still on the cross. If we were crucified with him and also received resurrection after being buried with him, then what happened to the old life? does it still live? If it is dead because of the new life in Christ, then, when we sin, how does the old life resurrect itself? I understand that it is the devil that has the power of death, but does he also have the power of resurrection? I also understand that since we have received Christ as our savior that the devil has been rendered powerless to the believer, so the power that the devil has does not apply to the believer and therefore death has no more reign over the believer.

I am sure that Christ is not going to use his power of resurrection, to bring the old life back to a Christian that commits a sin.

The thing that the non-OSAS have not come to understand is that when a person receives salvation a relationship is established between God and the believer and then they begin to fellowship because of the established relationship. They also don't understand that the relationship, from the point of salvation is eternal and cannot be broken. What is broken when a believer sins is fellowship and it is that fellowship that must be restored by confessing to God as per 1 John1:9

I know that most non's are going to post scriptures about murderers, idolatry, drunkenness, etc., but what most people don't understand is that it is unbelief that sends a person to the lake of fire. By unbelief, I mean, not having faith in Christ and his sacrifice.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

it is unbelief that sends a person to the lake of fire. By unbelief, I mean, not having faith in Christ and his sacrifice.

The exact point I've been arguing.
It is incumbent on the believer to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perhaps the parable of the prodigal son didn't speak of the son that did not return because it had already been discussed in, John 2:19/ “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

No, using 1 John 2:19 in the way you are would mean the Prodigal Son would have never left in the first place.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If someone can lose their salvation it means they worked to obtain it.

Justification is solely on the basis of faith/trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sin, not works. Faith is not a work that would somehow make it so that saying you can lose your justification/salvation is tantamount to saying one worked to obtain it.

Paul very clearly contrasts faith for justification with works for justification (Romans 4:4-5 NASB). But for some reason hyper-grace OSAS has moved faith over to the side of the works that can not justify by saying that to make continued faith a requirement for salvation is to make a gospel of works justification. But clearly, the Bible never talks about trust in Christ being a damnable effort to justify oneself.

Trust in Christ as a requirement to be justified is not a damnable work when the believer first believes, and that very same continued trust in Christ as a requirement to continue to be justified is also not a damnable work that can not justify.

 

[FreeGrace]

Someone who is hyper-anti-grace is not open to reason.
It is interesting to note that in Jesus telling of the prodigal son what is not often recalled is the prodigals older brother. He who was not happy at his younger brother being received back by the Father. The older son is jealous and envious.Nor is he happy that the father gives a party to celebrate the younger son's return. Reminds me of Luke 15 when all of heaven rejoices when someone repents.

The older son kinda reminds me of those who believe that salvation should be taken away from those who offend them. The older brother had no clue about the father's grace and forgiveness, and wanted to see his brother rejected.

Great point!!

 

[FreeGrace]

45 pages later..John 3:16.

Actually, that verse, along with John 10:28 has been provided many times in these 45 pages.

 

[FreeGrace]

The exact point I've been arguing.
It is incumbent on the believer to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

And your point has yet to be supported by Scripture. And 1 Cor 15:1-2 doesn't do that. It doesn't say what you think it means.

It's the last phrase that refutes your continuous action notion. To "believe in vain" means a belief in anything other than saving faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

Justification is solely on the basis of faith/trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sin, not works. Faith is not a work that would somehow make it so that saying you can lose your justification/salvation is tantamount to saying one worked to obtain it.

Paul described justification as a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. Then he said that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

So, please explain how a justified person could end up in the lake of fire.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is interesting to note that in Jesus telling of the prodigal son what is not often recalled is the prodigals older brother. He who was not happy at his younger brother being received back by the Father. The older son is jealous and envious.Nor is he happy that the father gives a party to celebrate the younger son's return. Reminds me of Luke 15 when all of heaven rejoices when someone repents.

When my wife comes back to the faith I will kill three or four fatted calves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's the last phrase that refutes your continuous action notion. To "believe in vain" means a belief in anything other than saving faith.

You, and nobody else, has explained how "unless you believed in vain" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB) makes it so that those who DO truly believe don't have to "hold fast the word" in order to be saved. If I am one that has not believed in vain, how does somebody else believing in vain make it so that I don't have to hold fast the word that was preached to me in order to be saved?

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)