12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

[reba]

My take on this is God sends no one to Hell, that is a decision left to each and every one of us and that decision is made as we live out the Temporal Life here in what we have termed the Natural Realm. (There is a good Sunday School or Bible Study lesson.)

If, and there is that giant two letter word but, if we think we will escape the Wrath of the Judgement of the Righteous God by avoiding the study of the Bible we are being silly. When Adam sinned in the Garden he took one the Sin Nature. So many today name their sons Adam without, even, understanding what Adam is, Adam is man! Man sinned, period.

I need never blame the Father of all mankind because I was never required to sin but I did. Just as I look like my mother and father, so also I sinned like them. God has given every man the route to His Free Grace and if we miss that route, we are guilty of not seeking Him making the Default Judgement our own.

But on the matter of Extinction; We are made in the image of God, see Genesis 1. And we take that to mean we look like God but I ask, "Has anyone seen the Father and lived?" Of course not, God is Spirit! The image we reflect of the Father is our Spirit, the part only God can see.

Just as I ran toward death, often certain death, in Vietnam, so should the Christian. The Christian should never live their lives in fear of the death of the body only for after this Temporal life is Eternal Life. Fear, yes, the Lost man should, and while that is not the best reason to be in Church, it is a good start.

Nice post and i agree God sends no one to hell but that did not answer my question.. or address my thoughts ...

 

[Obadiah]

Closing the thread for cleanup. Not directed at any particular member.

 

[Obadiah]

Ok, thread back open after some clean up.

If you are going to post something, please do it with respect. Maybe try pretending you are talking face to face with a respected member of your church with other respected church members sitting around the same table listening to your statements. Maybe that will help. If you are still unsure of what is right or wrong, read the ToS, even if it takes some time to read. Make sure you understand it. If you make veiled threats, insults, or derogatory statements moderator action will have to be taken. We are trying to keep this thread with an even keeled, respectful tone. Thanks.

 

[Drew]

Drew,
You are personalizing this issue making it Subjective instead of Objective and every, reasonable, scientist knows better than to go there because science deals, simply, with what is and that what is is in the Natural Realm only. To define what is in the Spiritual Realm is defined by Scripture... All of it from beginning to the end.

Your drawing on a set of scripture drawn out of it's context and that is forbidden by God. It is also illogical because, yes, more or less, forty men penned the Books of the Bible but their inspiration is from the One Author, God. That means the Christian Bible is one book, of one context, from "In the beginning..." through the very last "Amen" of Rev. 22.

From this come my first rule of Hermeneutics, "No verse nor grouping of verses can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it.

I do not understand what you are saying. Here is a summary of what I have posted:

1. It seems incoherent to me that a God of love would sentence some of His creatures to an eternity of torment. Having said that, I do not think that one needs to make this appeal as the overall Biblical picture supports annihilation of the lost.

2. To take "the wages of sin is death" and effectively transmute this to "the wages of sin are eternal life in torment" strikes me as tinkering too much with the normal sense of the word "death".

3. While there are indeed some texts which (in English) refer to everlasting torment, I have provided evidence of Biblical use of the concept of "forever" or "everlasting" to denote non-infinite time intervals (Isaiah 34 about Edom is the one example I have provided so far)

Where do you think I have erred and why?

 

[Kathi]

Drew,
You are personalizing this issue making it Subjective instead of Objective and every, reasonable, scientist knows better than to go there because science deals, simply, with what is and that what is is in the Natural Realm only. To define what is in the Spiritual Realm is defined by Scripture... All of it from beginning to the end.

Your drawing on a set of scripture drawn out of it's context and that is forbidden by God. It is also illogical because, yes, more or less, forty men penned the Books of the Bible but their inspiration is from the One Author, God. That means the Christian Bible is one book, of one context, from "In the beginning..." through the very last "Amen" of Rev. 22.

From this come my first rule of Hermeneutics, "No verse nor grouping of verses can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it.

Yes taylor

 

[Drew]

Let the interested reader examine the following Scriptures and see what is being said about the fate of the unredeemed (sorry for the length):

Psalm 145:20:“The Lord preserveth all them that love him, but all the wicked He shall destroy”

Psalm 101:8 “I will early destroy all the wicked of the land, that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord”

Psalm 37:38 - “But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off”

Psalm 92:7 “When the wicked spring as the grass and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish, it is that they shall be destroyed forever”

Proverbs 13:13 - “Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed; but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.”

Proverbs 10:29 “The way of the Lord is strength to the upright, but destruction shall be the workers of iniquity.”

Philippians 3:19 “Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things”

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away”

Proverbs 19:9 “A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish”

Luke 13:3 “Nay, but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever should believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life”

2 Thessalonians 2:10 “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received no the love of the truth that they might be saved”

Matthew 3:12 “Whose fan is in His hand, and he will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire”

Matthew 13:30 “Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, ‘Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them. But gather the wheat into my barn”

Hebrews 6:8 “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”

Malachi 4:1,3 “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and th day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. It shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”

Isaiah 1:28 “And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away”

Psalms 104:35a “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no more”

Psalm 21:9 “Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.”

Revelation 20:9 “And they went up on th ebreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

Hebrews 10:27 “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indigination, which shall devour the adversaries”

Psalm 37:2,9,22,28,34,38 “For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb...For evildoers shall be cut off, but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth...For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off...For the Lord loveth judgment and forsaketh not his saints; the are preserved for ever. But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off...Wait on the Lord and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it...But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off”

Isaiah 33:12 “And the people shall be as the burnings of lime. As thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire”

Matthew 3:12. "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Nahum 1:9-10 "What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Matthew 13:40. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

1. The term "destroy" and its variants appears often - to destroy means to destroy. On what basis does one interpret "destroy" as "preserve in a state of torment"?

2. The term "perish" appears many times. Perish means perish. On what basis is "perish" transmuted into "preserve in a state of eternal torment"?

3. The notion of the lost being consumed and burnt away by fire appears many times. And yet many seem to think that the lost are not in fact consumed and / or that the fire does not, in fact, burn them away to nothing. How is such a move justified?

Yes, there are texts that refer to beings subject to "everlasting" torment. But, as I have shown, we have clear Biblical precedent for using "forever" to refer to what is, in fact, a finite duration of time. See Isaiah 34 and the promised judgement of Edom.

 

[Kathi]

I have often heard "why would a loving merciful God sentence people to an eternity of torment". I usually ask why would a loving God annihilate so many of his creation? I can see the difference if we are assuming a burning alive type of torment, but just because people decide to not be with Jesus using the free will that He gave them doesn't mean that He wants to wipe them out of existence. Just my thoughts anyway.

Are you saying jeff that the unbelievers will still exist in hell forever and ever in a eternal punishment?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I do not understand what you are saying. Here is a summary of what I have posted:

1. It seems incoherent to me

The highlighted is as clear a manifestation as I could have asked for of what I was speaking of. It is not about me or you and what we think. It is about God and what He has taught us and will we believe or will we go to Hell for the lack of that belief.

 

[Drew]

The highlighted is as clear a manifestation as I could have asked for of what I was speaking of. It is not about me or you and what we think. It is about God and what He has taught us and will we believe or will we go to Hell for the lack of that belief.

I still do not understand. The Bible is a book and we are readers. There is no escaping the fact that each of us has to interpret the words we read. So there really is no sense in which we can talk about "what God says" in the abstract - each of us unavoidably has to engage in acts of interpretation. The key is to interpret responsibly, accounting for context and knowledge of the cultural setting in which the texts were written.

This post, and your previous post do not appear to engage the actual arguments I am making.

Let me ask you these specific questions

1. When Paul write "the wages of sin is death", do you read this as "the wages of sin is to have a fully conscious awareness of eternal torment".

2. Consider this text from Isaiah 34 prophesying the destruction of Edom, a prophecy that we know historically has been fulfilled:

It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever

Is smoke rising from Edom today?
Is is really true that to this very day no one is passing through the land of Edom?

 

[tim-from-pa]

I made my points, and I was not really upset and think I have done so respectfully. If I offended anyone unintentionally, I apologize. So I won't contribute any longer to this thread.

I hope people can come to an amiable solution, or at least an understanding.

Usually threads of this topic take off fast, (although I've seen some that do not for whatever reason), so in addition to making my points, I'm getting lost answering everyone and keeping up with it. It's too much.

Thanks for the clean-up nevertheless. It may make it easier for some.

 

[FreeGrace]

Let the interested reader examine the following Scriptures and see what is being said about the fate of the unredeemed (sorry for the length):

Psalm 145:20:“The Lord preserveth all them that love him, but all the wicked He shall destroy”

Psalm 101:8 “I will early destroy all the wicked of the land, that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord”

Psalm 37:38 - “But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off”

Psalm 92:7 “When the wicked spring as the grass and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish, it is that they shall be destroyed forever”

Proverbs 13:13 - “Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed; but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.”

So far, all these can easily refer to physical death. Not eternal death.

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”

If one ceases to exist, why put a time (everlasting) description to it?

Matthew 3:12 “Whose fan is in His hand, and he will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire”

Why would a fire be "unquenchable" after it annihilates its objects?

Psalms 104:35a “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no more”

Psalm 21:9 “Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.”

Revelation 20:9 “And they went up on th ebreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

Hebrews 10:27 “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indigination, which shall devour the adversaries”

Physical death.

Yes, there are texts that refer to beings subject to "everlasting" torment. But, as I have shown, we have clear Biblical precedent for using "forever" to refer to what is, in fact, a finite duration of time. See Isaiah 34 and the promised judgement of Edom.

I didn't see anything resembling a finite duration for any of these verses. Could you please point specifically which ones you think do that?

 

[jasonc]

ALL im going to say that jewish thought and the lxx usage of hades in place of sheol doesn't allow for a simple grave in all contexts. the greek word grave isn't hades, nor is it sheol the word for grave in Hebrew that would be queber.

 

[th1b.taylor]

th1b.taylor what i get from reading the above is dead is not dead like we generally use the word... seems to me you are saying what we call death is is not death dead but just waiting for internal torment.. which brings to mind ...

That does sum up what is taught by the scriptures. In Matthew 27:52, one of my favorite verses, we see the Old Testament Saints, some of them passed over for hundreds and thousands of years, rising from the graves. Their bodies had, long before, been consumed or rotted away and yet they were alive.

Death is not understood today because of the amount of outside input we are receiving from everywhere but from God. There are verses that, once removed from the Bible, can be used to make the case for extinction but there in resides a huge issue, what's good for the goose is good for the gander and we know from verse 52 that the saved live though they have died the first death. And if the first death were permanent why even speak of the second and yet God does just that.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

what is perish
Strong's says this for parish
G622

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Please forgive if this reads argumentative it is not meant so..

Here is the example of a very, very, common mistake and thye folks doing so, almst never see it for themselves. The Strongs is a very valuable study reference but we must never let it define words to the point they lose their contextual reference.

Remembering, always, the Bible is of one context from beginning to end and is authored by one, supreme, God. Perish in the first and prior centuries did not always mean what the Strongs explains to us any more than it does today. if You come in to your kitchen and I'm there with a quarter glass of milk and the Cookie Dish is empty and I reply to your question that the Snicker Doodles perished, You will not immediately assume the passed over and I have been one kind dude and buried them for you...I hope, anyway.

In this passage Jesus, being the Son of God, knew he was dealing with a Pharisee that was daily tormented by various Sadducees trying to convince him that the end of this body was the end of all life and He used a term he would readily associate with. And then we must also consider the body, as we know and understand it, does cease to be for both the Lost and the Saved. The bodies we know right now will never survive natural nor spiritual fire. No, just as we, the Saved, receive the Glorified and eternal Bodies so it must, surely, be with the Lost that they are not resurrected without some form of eternal body.

The very thought of this truth is so offensive to many people and I never expect it not to be, I could never imagine me doing this to anyone... wellllll, maybe Ho Chi Minh. But remember, we are not God and our ways are not God's ways.

 

[OzSpen]

Agree. Why do some of you believe you can take words like "death" (the wages of sin are death) and "die" (the soul that sins shall die) and dramatically redefine these concepts to mean essentially their exact opposite? How can "death" be transformed into "eternal conscious living existence"?

That's because I take all of the Bible seriously. Luke 16:22-26 (ESV) states:

'The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (ESV)​

The fact demonstrated in this story of the rich man and Lazarus is that there is conscious torment in Hades for the unrighteous rich man after death. In fact, this torment was of such a nature that in the following verses he was pleading for someone to go to the father's house to warn his 5 brothers about the torment, lest they should come to that place of torment. It was so severe he did not want his brothers there.

That is definitely not describing annihilation for unbelievers after death. Death is the cessation of physical existence but not the cessation of life.

For the eternal dimension, we need to go to other Scriptures such as Matt 25:46 (ESV).

 

[JLB]

I do not understand what you are saying. Here is a summary of what I have posted:

1. It seems incoherent to me that a God of love would sentence some of His creatures to an eternity of torment. Having said that, I do not think that one needs to make this appeal as the overall Biblical picture supports annihilation of the lost.

2. To take "the wages of sin is death" and effectively transmute this to "the wages of sin are eternal life in torment" strikes me as tinkering too much with the normal sense of the word "death".

3. While there are indeed some texts which (in English) refer to everlasting torment, I have provided evidence of Biblical use of the concept of "forever" or "everlasting" to denote non-infinite time intervals (Isaiah 34 about Edom is the one example I have provided so far)

Where do you think I have erred and why?

There is a way that "seems" right to a man.... But the end is the way of death.


JLB

 

[JLB]

That's because I take all of the Bible seriously. Luke 16:22-26 (ESV) states:

'The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (ESV)​

The fact demonstrated in this story of the rich man and Lazarus is that there is conscious torment in Hades for the unrighteous rich man after death. In fact, this torment was of such a nature that in the following verses he was pleading for someone to go to the father's house to warn his 5 brothers about the torment, lest they should come to that place of torment. It was so severe he did not want his brothers there.

That is definitely not describing annihilation for unbelievers after death. Death is the cessation of physical existence but not the cessation of life.

For the eternal dimension, we need to go to other Scriptures such as Matt 25:46 (ESV).

 

[Obadiah]

I made my points, and I was not really upset and think I have done so respectfully. If I offended anyone unintentionally, I apologize. So I won't contribute any longer to this thread.

I hope people can come to an amiable solution, or at least an understanding.

Usually threads of this topic take off fast, (although I've seen some that do not for whatever reason), so in addition to making my points, I'm getting lost answering everyone and keeping up with it. It's too much.

Thanks for the clean-up nevertheless. It may make it easier for some.

Tim, the only reason your post was removed was because it was a response to another post that had been removed, therefore it became irrelevant to the conversation. That's why when I do that I always leave a message behind (in red font so it's easy to find) explaining this. You did nothing wrong.

 

[Butch5]

I do not understand what you are saying. Here is a summary of what I have posted:

1. It seems incoherent to me that a God of love would sentence some of His creatures to an eternity of torment. Having said that, I do not think that one needs to make this appeal as the overall Biblical picture supports annihilation of the lost.

2. To take "the wages of sin is death" and effectively transmute this to "the wages of sin are eternal life in torment" strikes me as tinkering too much with the normal sense of the word "death".

3. While there are indeed some texts which (in English) refer to everlasting torment, I have provided evidence of Biblical use of the concept of "forever" or "everlasting" to denote non-infinite time intervals (Isaiah 34 about Edom is the one example I have provided so far)

Where do you think I have erred and why?

I agree, we had this discussion not long ago in another thread on Conditional Immortality. The evidence is there for everyone to see.

 

[OzSpen]

While the unbeliever will indeed be judged -as will we all (Romans 2) - they will ultimately be annihilated. Even though I think the Bible indeed teaches this more or less explicitly (e.g. the wages of sin is death, the soul that sins will dies, etc.), I think it is otherwise self-contradictory to affirm belief in a loving merciful God who also sentences people to an eternity of torment.

Drew,

I profoundly disagree with you. Remember the warning in the Garden in Gen 2:17 (ESV). In the day that Adam & Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they 'shall surely die'. Did they die physically? Of course not. So 'die' in the Bible does not necessarily mean physical death. When I die not too long from now, my physical body will die to be buried, but I will not die. I will live eternally with the Lord.

Now to your comment about annihilation and eternal comment.

This is what 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV) states:

They [those who do not know God, v8] will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.​

We are told the nature of this ‘destruction’ in context. Second Thess 1:7-8 (ESV) says of unbelievers (those inflicting punishment on the believers at Thessalonica) that ‘God considers it just to repay with affliction…. inflicting vengeance’. That’s the language of God and he says that this is what happens when ‘they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might’ (2 Thess 1:9 ESV).

Let’s summarise what the Scriptures state in the context of 2 Thess. 1:7-9 (ESV).

• unbelievers will be repaid with affliction;
• In this affliction, God is inflicting vengeance;
• This vengeance is called ‘eternal destruction’’;
• And it means being ‘away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might’.

This is the justice that all unbelievers will receive from the absolutely just Almighty God of the universe. ‘Destruction’ in 2 Thess 1:9 (ESV) is a descriptive term and it tells us its content. Those who want to find destruction to mean something that is destroyed and that’s the end (as you are stating - annihilation) are found to be wanting because of the Greek word, aiwnios (eternal). There is no time frame here. It is timeless eternity and this destruction goes on to the aeon to come. This is what the adjective, aiwnios, means. It is true that the eternal life of the believers is as long at the eternal destruction of unbelievers (see Matt 25:46 ESV).

Second Thess 1:9 (ESV) says that this will be happening ‘away from the presence of the Lord’ and from ‘the glory of his might’. Please don’t minimise the seriousness of this destruction. The saints are surrounded by the glory of the Lord God’s presence. The unbelievers are excluded from the presence of the Lord and are experiencing God’s vengeance by means of eternal destruction. You and I don’t invent the meaning of ‘destruction’. It is explained in context. They are experiencing the infliction of God's vengeance. That's Bible.

Elsewhere the experience of unbelievers after death is described as being sent to the place where it is ‘outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’ (Matt. 22:13 ESV).

 

[th1b.taylor]

I still do not understand. The Bible is a book and we are readers. There is no escaping the fact that each of us has to interpret the words we read.

No, that is an assumption. Even the Interpreters had not the right to interpret what the words were saying, how could any man presume to know the mind of God... a God he or she has never sat down and conversed with? This is why only the Book of John is fruit bearing reading reading for the Lost man and even there they can never plumb the depths of the meanings there.

This post, and your previous post do not appear to engage the actual arguments I am making.

You are quite correct and the reason is that I will not be drawn into a silly, meaningless, contest. (Edited, ToS 2.4 unwelcome spiritual advice and personal insult. Obadiah)

Let me ask you these specific questions

1. When Paul write "the wages of sin is death", do you read this as "the wages of sin is to have a fully conscious awareness of eternal torment".

Yes, because the Holy Spirit has instructed me that this is the truth.

2. Consider this text from Isaiah 34 prophesying the destruction of Edom, a prophecy that we know historically has been fulfilled:

It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever

Is smoke rising from Edom today?
Is is really true that to this very day no one is passing through the land of Edom?

Yes and no to both questions and this has no direct bearing on the premise being discussed. The first two Edoms are defuct, expired in the known sense but they were known as first, Edom and the second as Rome. The third Edom, the United States and specifically Washington D.C. is presently spiraling to the ground to complete that Obidiah prophecy for the third time in history, His Story.