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1689 London Confession

Its God that sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie and be damned.
Yes, He did.

But He had a good reason:

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thess. 2:11-12 NKJ)

They already "did not believe the truth" so God permits Satan to deceive them even more. He did the same to Pharaoh, allowing Satan work miracles through Pharaoh's magicians and that emboldened him. He then hardened his own heart refusing to let Israel go because he thought God could be resisted.
 
Yes, He did.

But He had a good reason:

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thess. 2:11-12 NKJ)

They already "did not believe the truth" so God permits Satan to deceive them even more. He did the same to Pharaoh, allowing Satan work miracles through Pharaoh's magicians and that emboldened him. He then hardened his own heart refusing to let Israel go because he thought God could be resisted.
His reason was His Own Purpose. He decreed their damnation. He made them for destruction anyway Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
:

They were appointed by God to disobey the word and be damned 1 Pet 2:8
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

So His reason was because He so purposed it.
 
alfred

They already "did not believe the truth"

That describes everyone by nature ! It takes the new birth or the sanctification of the Spirit to believe the Truth of the Gospel 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If not for the mighty work of the Spirit, the elect would have been like the non elect described in the preceding verses

2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God treated His elect different than He did to the non elect, He had no mercy on them, but rather confirmed them justly in their unbelief.
 
His reason was His Own Purpose. He decreed their damnation. He made them for destruction anyway Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
:

They were appointed by God to disobey the word and be damned 1 Pet 2:8
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

So His reason was because He so purposed it.
You ignore the context. God sent the deluding influence in judgment of those who rejected Bible truth.

Now, you again ignore the context of Paul's statement about the potter. The example in context is Pharoah, not righteous people but sinners. They are the same lump of sinners, God uses them for His purposes:

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:17-24 KJV)

Here the purpose is stated. God could make sinners "toilets" or "mansions", but God is doing this to make known His glory to the Righteous, "vessels of mercy".

So "vessels of wrath" are sinners, God didn't make them sinners. That "sinful lump of clay" God makes different vessels as He sees fit.

And He does this to illuminate "vessels of mercy" "make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy".

And the "vessels of mercy" have different jobs to do in the church:

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (1 Cor. 12:28-29 KJV)

Peter warned you Calvinists, as well as everyone else, Paul's letters are deep, hard to understand. It would be nice if you heeded Peter and stopped implying there is "unrighteous with God"

God has mercy on some evil lumps of clay and makes them into vessels of honor, how many evil kings etc exist? Lots. God also doesn't have mercy on some evil lumps of clay and makes them into vessels of dishonor, but in neither case did He make the clay evil.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Pet. 3:15-16 KJV)
 
If anthropomorphisms are blasphemous then much of the Bible needs to be deleted.
Call it what you will, I said nothing about God having need, thats a blasphemous thought. God doesnt do anything because He needed to, He does things because its His Sovereign prerogative to do as He please Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
 
Call it what you will, I said nothing about God having need, thats a blasphemous thought. God doesnt do anything because He needed to, He does things because its His Sovereign prerogative to do as He please Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
He wasn't discussing God's attributes etc., he was posing a question. He did nothing wrong, certainly not blasphemy.

And you didn't answer his question.
 
alfred



No I didnt, thats how I found the truth, within the context
No, you ignored it to say God was the cause of their evil choices, when context shows they already made their evil choice and God was merely aiding and abetting their choice.

Paul is talking about apostate Christians who will eventually leave the church to follow the Beast. God sends THEM a strong delusion, they were already craving and wanting the delusion, so God reinforces it:

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:8-12 KJV)

John saw this future event so clearly when it happened in his day on a miniature scale he likens it to "the last hour":

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 Jn. 2:18-19 NKJ)

Paul contrasts these apostate TARES to true believers who love God's Word the Bible.

Unlike the TARES rejected for salvation made unholy through the spirit of antichrist who do not love God's truth, true believers are saved and have been sanctified by God's Spirit and love of God's Truth:


13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

(2 Thess. 2:13-3:1 KJV)
 
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I said nothing about God having need, thats a blasphemous thought.
Brightfame
Do you understand English?

Could you read my post again and reply to it?
Or is it just too difficult to give a decent reply?
 
He wasn't discussing God's attributes etc., he was posing a question. He did nothing wrong, certainly not blasphemy.

And you didn't answer his question.
The God I know and serve does things because Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
 
No, you ignored it to say God was the cause of their evil choices, when context shows they already made their evil choice and God was merely aiding and abetting their choice.

Paul is talking about apostate Christians who will eventually leave the church to follow the Beast. God sends THEM a strong delusion, they were already craving and wanting the delusion, so God reinforces it:

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:8-12 KJV)

John saw this future event so clearly when it happened in his day on a miniature scale he likens it to "the last hour":

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 Jn. 2:18-19 NKJ)

Paul contrasts these apostate TARES to true believers who love God's Word the Bible.

Unlike the TARES rejected for salvation made unholy through the spirit of antichrist who do not love God's truth, true believers are saved and have been sanctified by God's Spirit and love of God's Truth:


13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

(2 Thess. 2:13-3:1 KJV)
I found truth in the context of scripture, thats what scripture is for, to study it 2 Tim 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Now God sends men a strong delusion to believe a lie, and then damns them for it 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
It was Gods purpose from all eternity to damn these people for their sins, and in unbelief,

They were appointed to disobedience 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
 
Yes, He did.

But He had a good reason:

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thess. 2:11-12 NKJ)

They already "did not believe the truth" so God permits Satan to deceive them even more. He did the same to Pharaoh, allowing Satan work miracles through Pharaoh's magicians and that emboldened him. He then hardened his own heart refusing to let Israel go because he thought God could be resisted.
These people were never part of Gods saving purposes, God never had written their names in the Lambs Book of life, so their believing a lie had been foreordained from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 
He wasn't discussing God's attributes etc., he was posing a question. He did nothing wrong, certainly not blasphemy.

And you didn't answer his question.
“Her” (wondering), but otherwise I agree that “blasphemy” was inappropriate in that case. She was merely arguing in the form of a ‘hypothetical’ that the action was not needed to achieve the result.
 
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(And once again scripture is twisted and made to be illogical)
This was disrespectful of your opponents beliefs and unneccesary.

Why does God have the need to send an illusion?
All God has to do is not choose the guy in question.

Easy.
God had no need to send a delusion to damn them, they were fully capable of damnation on their own … as are we all. God chose to send a delusion because doing so served some greater purpose of God according to His bigger plan. Take those in Romans 1:18 as an example: certainly they had adequacy demonstrated their ability for self-damnation when they darkened their hearts and refused to honor God as God. Yet three times God turned them over to follow ever darker desires of their hearts and increase their guilt. God did not NEED to do it to damn them, they were already there. God did it for His purposes. The same can be said in other cases of God releasing men to greater evil and damnation. “Storing up wrath for the day of wrath” as the Bible says.
 
This was disrespectful of your opponents beliefs and unneccesary.


God had no need to send a delusion to damn them, they were fully capable of damnation on their own … as are we all. God chose to send a delusion because doing so served some greater purpose of God according to His bigger plan. Take those in Romans 1:18 as an example: certainly they had adequacy demonstrated their ability for self-damnation when they darkened their hearts and refused to honor God as God. Yet three times God turned them over to follow ever darker desires of their hearts and increase their guilt. God did not NEED to do it to damn them, they were already there. God did it for His purposes. The same can be said in other cases of God releasing men to greater evil and damnation. “Storing up wrath for the day of wrath” as the Bible says.
I believe Revelation 9:1-11; 1 John 2:18-23; 1 Timothy 4:1 reveal what the "strong delusion" does:

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. (2 Pet. 2:1-2 NKJ)

Most assume these "scoffers" are non-Christians, but the phrase "walking according to their own lusts" is repeated in Jude 1:16 speaking about TARES sown among the wheat. These scoffers have become apostates, in the fallen away church and now they are leaving to follow the Beast. They lost their "faith" and now mock Christianity as they join the Antichrist, denying the Father and the Son:

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder),
2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." (2 Pet. 3:1-4 NKJ)


18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
(1 Jn. 2:18-23 NKJ)

 
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Please no insults !
You know very well why I asked if you understand English.

Just reading words does not mean you understand.

You STILL have not replied to my question.

Let's try again and delete the word NEED since you'll grip on to anything in order to avoid discussing How reformed theology MAKES NO SENSE.


IF God is going to sovereignly predestinate WHO is saved and pass over the rest of humanity...

WHY would God send an illusion so that ANYONE would not believe?

WHY wouldn't God, in His sovereign right, just PASS OVER those to whom He would instead send an illusion?


This question has nothing to do with God's attributes.

Please read carefully and reply, if possible.
And you should also learn what blasphemy means.
 
You know very well why I asked if you understand English.

Just reading words does not mean you understand.

You STILL have not replied to my question.

Let's try again and delete the word NEED since you'll grip on to anything in order to avoid discussing How reformed theology MAKES NO SENSE.


IF God is going to sovereignly predestinate WHO is saved and pass over the rest of humanity...

WHY would God send an illusion so that ANYONE would not believe?

WHY wouldn't God, in His sovereign right, just PASS OVER those to whom He would instead send an illusion?


This question has nothing to do with God's attributes.

Please read carefully and reply, if possible.
And you should also learn what blasphemy means.
God does as He will !
 
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