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1689 London Confession

This was disrespectful of your opponents beliefs and unneccesary.


God had no need to send a delusion to damn them, they were fully capable of damnation on their own … as are we all. God chose to send a delusion because doing so served some greater purpose of God according to His bigger plan. Take those in Romans 1:18 as an example: certainly they had adequacy demonstrated their ability for self-damnation when they darkened their hearts and refused to honor God as God. Yet three times God turned them over to follow ever darker desires of their hearts and increase their guilt. God did not NEED to do it to damn them, they were already there. God did it for His purposes. The same can be said in other cases of God releasing men to greater evil and damnation. “Storing up wrath for the day of wrath” as the Bible says.
What you state above is not what @Brightfame 52 believes.

Brightfame knows very well I have no respect for Calvinism. No Christian does and did not from the beginning. Even the CC does not accept calvinism and Augustine was Catholic!

I DO, instead, respect the character of persons that are reformed. You're one of the very few.
But it's not easy. They have a way of being ornery and unpleasant and insulting, at times I respond in kind. Basically because it's so difficult to converse...

As is proven in this convo with BF.

We know what the bible states....
What I'd like is for BF to explain how Calvinism
MAKES SENSE.

God is causing this confusion?
God decrees BF to a belief he cannot adequately explain?
 
This was disrespectful of your opponents beliefs and unneccesary.


God had no need to send a delusion to damn them, they were fully capable of damnation on their own … as are we all. God chose to send a delusion because doing so served some greater purpose of God according to His bigger plan. Take those in Romans 1:18 as an example: certainly they had adequacy demonstrated their ability for self-damnation when they darkened their hearts and refused to honor God as God. Yet three times God turned them over to follow ever darker desires of their hearts and increase their guilt. God did not NEED to do it to damn them, they were already there. God did it for His purposes. The same can be said in other cases of God releasing men to greater evil and damnation. “Storing up wrath for the day of wrath” as the Bible says.
What do you mean that those in Romans 1:18 darkened their hearts?

Don't you believe they were Born already darkened? Already dead? Can't get deader than dead.

See A, I can make that statement,
NOT a Calvinist.

TOTAL depravity.
Depraved in every way.
Totally.
 
What do you mean that those in Romans 1:18 darkened their hearts?
It was an almost direct quote from Romans 1:21 …
  • Romans 1:18-21 [NKJV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
I was avoiding making any HUMAN judgements by merely stating as fact what God had already declared to be so. It is a matter of debate the role played by God and the role they played. When the Bible claims the following:
  • Romans 1:24-25 [NKJV] 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Which is the “cause” that is “responsible” for the result of “dishonor their bodies among themselves”?
  • Was it God giving them up?
  • Was it the lust of their hearts?
  • Was it both?
The bible is not 100% unambiguous in answering this, so people will disagree. However, the Bible was clear that those in Romans 1:18 had their hearts darkened by verse 21 … so THAT was before God’s action in Romans 1:24. Thus God did not need to “give them up to uncleanness” (Romans 1:24) in order for them to already be condemned for “darkened hearts” (Romans 1:21).
 
Don't you believe they were Born already darkened? Already dead? Can't get deader than dead.
Men are born fallen, spiritually dead, under the curse, unable to believe and unwilling to obey.
Unfortunately, yes, they can get deader than dead.

Romans 1:21 they had darkened hearts, were under God’s wrath, had rejected the true God and were worshiping false gods. They were dead and damned.

Romans 1:24 God gave them over to the “lust of their hearts” and they followed their passions and dishonored their bodies (temple prostitutes as an act of worship). They became “more dead“.

Romans 1:26 God gave them up to “vile passions” and they exchanged natural lusts for unnatural lusts. They became “even more dead”.

Romans 1:28 God gave them over to a “debased mind” and they became filled with all forms of evil and malice. They became “dead to the utter most”.

What Calvinism, me, and scripture affirm is that at no point were they “alive”. “Alive” left the building with Adam and only returns when God the Father draws us under the blood of God the Son. All natural men (the unsaved) are dead [Ephesians 2:1-3].

Some see evidence of a Prevenient Grace to all, but I see that as a wonderful eisegesis of our wishful thinking into the text. What I have in black and white is a God who states “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose. So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.” [Romans 9:15-16 NLT] and “God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.” [Romans 8:29-30 NLT] … a Sovereign Grace to those God has chosen to receive it.
 
TOTAL depravity.
Depraved in every way.
Totally.
WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS NOT:
Total Depravity is not UTTER DEPRAVITY. Every human being is not as bad as they could possibly be. (Even Adolph Hitler probably loved his mother, so there is room for everyone to be more evil than they are.)

WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS:
Total Depravity means that the fall affects the whole man. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our BODIES - so we become sick and we die. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our MINDS - so our thoughts become what the Bible calls “darkened” and “weakened”. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our WILL - according to Paul we are now in bondage and enslaved to the evil desires of our hearts. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our SPIRIT - we are no longer born with that innate spiritual connection to God that Adam once had and which only Christ can restore. So the fall has corrupted our bodies, our minds, our will and our spirit … the WHOLE MAN is corrupted by the power of sin.

from https://christianforums.net/threads/a-discussion-on-total-depravity.95683/
 
Hi A,
I read all 3 posts.
It's pretty funny that YOU are quoting Romans 1 and 2 to ME.
I guess you don't know me enough.
Anyway, it's past 11 pm here and I just got home.
I really would like brightfame52 to post, but he won't.
You're more secure in your beliefs than he is.
So, tomorrow.
Good night.
 
As usual....
No reply.

Even You don't understand what you believe.
Its a reply, just not the one you wanna accept. Your question is similar to the one Paul anticipated from people when he expounded the Sovereignty of God over people, observe Rom 9:17-22

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

So God does as He wills, all you doing is replying against God and asking why ? Because He wants to, if you dont like it tough sledding.

Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
 
Men are born fallen, spiritually dead, under the curse, unable to believe and unwilling to obey.
Unfortunately, yes, they can get deader than dead.

Romans 1:21 they had darkened hearts, were under God’s wrath, had rejected the true God and were worshiping false gods. They were dead and damned.

Romans 1:24 God gave them over to the “lust of their hearts” and they followed their passions and dishonored their bodies (temple prostitutes as an act of worship). They became “more dead“.

Romans 1:26 God gave them up to “vile passions” and they exchanged natural lusts for unnatural lusts. They became “even more dead”.

Romans 1:28 God gave them over to a “debased mind” and they became filled with all forms of evil and malice. They became “dead to the utter most”.

What Calvinism, me, and scripture affirm is that at no point were they “alive”. “Alive” left the building with Adam and only returns when God the Father draws us under the blood of God the Son. All natural men (the unsaved) are dead [Ephesians 2:1-3].

Some see evidence of a Prevenient Grace to all, but I see that as a wonderful eisegesis of our wishful thinking into the text. What I have in black and white is a God who states “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose. So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.” [Romans 9:15-16 NLT] and “God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.” [Romans 8:29-30 NLT] … a Sovereign Grace to those God has chosen to receive it.


11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! (Rom. 9:11-14 NKJ)

A Thought Experiment: Imagine the Elect aren't the only ones saved. What shall we say then?

There certainly is no unrighteousness with God when He Elects unto salvation whoever He chooses to have mercy upon, because He did not thereby Reprobate unto damnation those He did not elect.

Is there scripture proving its not just the Elect that can be saved? Yes, in the symbolism of the book of life:

The names of the Elect are in the Book of Life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8) but other names written in this Book cannot be of the "Elect" because those names can be blotted out (Rev. 3:5; Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28) or written in (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Mal. 3:16).

Blotted Out:
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5 NKJ)

32 "Yet now, if You will forgive their sin-- but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written."
33 And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. (Exod. 32:32-33 NKJ)

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. (Ps. 69:28 NKJ)

Written In:
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. (Ps. 69:28 NKJ)

The LORD will record, When He registers the peoples: "This one was born there." Selah (Ps. 87:6 NKJ)

Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, And the LORD listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the LORD And who meditate on His name. (Mal. 3:16 NKJ)

As God did not exclude people from the Book of Life when He wrote the names of the Elect in, others beside the Elect can be saved. Therefore, all the scriptures inviting everyone to believe, to choose life, aren't a charade. They are genuine offers for life.


Moreover, everyone assumes Esau is unsaved. He clearly wasn't one of God's Elect. But is he unsaved eternally?


Although the writer of Hebrews describes him as a Godless profane person who sold his birth right for a meal (Heb. 12:16), he also notes Esau and Jacob both were blessed "concerning things to come":

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. (Heb. 11:20 NKJ)

It doesn't appear from this Esau is cursed concerning things to come. Just the opposite.

Although the sins of the descendants of Esau led to their destruction, God enriched Esau's first descendants and destroyed the Horites from before them just as He did for Israel:

The Horites formerly dwelt in Seir, but the descendants of Esau dispossessed them and destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their place, just as Israel did to the land of their possession which the LORD gave them.) (Deut. 2:12 NKJ)

3 `Then I took your father Abraham from the other side of the River, led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.
4 `To Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. To Esau I gave the mountains of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt. (Jos. 24:3-4 NKJ)

Although Paul focuses on God's right to do with His creation as He wills, that wouldn't exhaust all the reasons why "there is no unrighteousness with God". When it comes to salvation, God isn't partial:


4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom. 2:4-16 NKJ)
 
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alfredp

There certainly is no unrighteousness with God when He Elects unto salvation whoever He chooses to have mercy upon, because He did not thereby Reprobate unto damnation those He did not elect.

Yes He did reprobate, reject to damnation them He didnt elect unto Salvation and He is not unrighteous in doing so, Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
 
alfredp



Yes He did reprobate, reject to damnation them He didnt elect unto Salvation and He is not unrighteous in doing so, Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
You took that out of context, the blindness isn't eternal:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:26-36 NKJ)
 
Are you serious? (about going to a different thread, I mean).
Total Depravity is not biblical.
We are depraved, body, soul and spirit.

But total depravity means we are UNABLE to seek God.
How many times do I have to post verses that say WE ARE TO SEEK GOD?

Does it mean nothing to you that there is so much conflict with biblical teaching?

Jesus tells us to GO TO HIM....
COME TO ME...is an invitation.
WE must GO TO HIM.

Matthew 11:28-30
28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Come to me is a command requiring an action IF we wish to go to Jesus.
Take my yoke is a command requiring an action IF we wish to follow Jesus.


Jesus tells us to repent in
Matthew 4:17
17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


Why would God tell us to repent if He knew we couldn't?
Why make it a command?
Apparently, it's because Jesus knew we could and were able to repent.
Here W makes up her own ideas, turning away from truth, then denying it as she often does.
 
You do realize those verses describe Prevenient Grace and its continuation after one is saved.
Prevenient grace is not taught in scripture anywhere.
Not one scripture can be found teaching God reprobates unto damnation.
30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.

The doctrine of Reprobation is an inference, thought to be the corollary of Election. But that assumes only the Elect are written in the book of life. That is not correct.
Reprobation is taught in scripture.
 
Peter warned you Calvinists, as well as everyone else, Paul's letters are deep, hard to understand. It would be nice if you heeded Peter and stopped implying there is "unrighteous with God
No God tells us that people like you and W will not understand and will scoff at it.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Pet. 3:15-16 KJV)

You have missed by a mile.
 
What you state above is not what @Brightfame 52 believes.
BF can answer for himself.
Brightfame knows very well I have no respect for Calvinism.
We read your attack posts and know you do not understand at all.
No Christian does and did not from the beginning.
This might be the most hostile and ignorant post of the year. No Christians have respect for :nono :poke:confused2:coffeeCalvinism ???

Even the CC does not accept calvinism and Augustine was Catholic!
The catholic church is a works based cult.
I DO, instead, respect the character of persons that are reformed.
You are no ones judge.

You're one of the very few.
But it's not easy. They have a way of being ornery and unpleasant and insulting, at times I respond in kind. Basically because it's so difficult to converse...

As is proven in this convo with BF
The attacks come from your keyboard
We know what the bible states....
What I'd like is for BF to explain how Calvinism
MAKES SENSE.
You will never understand unless God allows you to?
God is causing this confusion?
No, you are doing that all by yourself.


God decrees BF to a belief he cannot adequately explain?
He has explained, you are not allowed to see it yet.
 
The catholic church is a works based cult.
Agreed.
When you understand the idolatry of the mass, that propitiatory sacrifice of Christ can never save anyone, the treasury of merit, indulgences, the excess merit of Mary, purgatory, that one righteousness consists of that of Christ, Mary, the saints and oneself, sacraments, that the priest is another Christ … then one does not have the gospel of that leads to salvation. James White
So, no, if a person holds to the official Roman Catholic understanding of salvation, he or she is not saved. Despite their vigorous affirmations, Roman Catholicism does not truly hold to salvation by grace through faith. https://www.gotquestions.org/are-Catholics-saved.html

 
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