• Happy New Year 2025!

    Blessings to the CFN community!

    May 2025 be your best year yet!

  • CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • CFN welcomes new contributing members!

    Please welcome Roberto and Julia to our family

    Blessings in Christ, and hope you stay awhile!

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

1689 London Confession

So which is Pharaoh's heart an example of?
Did Pharaoh have GENUINE Free Will to not harden his heart (and thwart Passover) or was the Heart of Pharaoh under God's "sovereign control"?
Well A, oddly enough Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
THEN God hardened his heart, as God does in Romans 1:24a
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity...

Do you not accept that God will always have His way?
I'm sure you do.
So why cannot God work things out INCLUDING in His actions our free will?
Do you think this is so difficult for God to do?
How weak of a God do some think He is?
Pharaoh had a hard heart.
Exodus 8:19

Pharaoh hardened his own heart because he had no interest in God.
Exodus 8:15
Exodus 8:32
Exodus 9:7
Exodus 9:34

God hardened Pharaoh's heart as a result:
Exodus 9:12
Exodus 10:1, 20
Exodus 10:27
Exodus 11:10


Of course Pharaoh had free will to worship and obey God.
But He didn't.

Jesus said to REPENT in Matthew 3:17.
But not everyone did or will.

Jesus said that not all are WILLING to go to Him
John 5:40
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


We must be WILLING to go to Jesus.
He draws all men to Himself, John 12:32
but not all men will willingly go to Him.

Willingness denotes free will.
Those that do not go to Jesus because they have not learned from the Father, John 6:45,
are lost, and they are lost of their own choice.

It is this free choice NOT to go to God that condemns them in a just manner and makes each person responsible for their own destruction.
 
I misspoke. The Law isn't circular, its your understanding of it that is. You suppose God causes our choices, and declare God is first cause of everything.
Phew, I was about to give up on the possibility of a rational conversation.

Yes ... this is the Law of Causality. Every effect has a cause. Because God is eternal, He is uncaused; He is the initiator of all effects (unless you propose another eternal entity). According to the Law of Causality anything you do, anything that happens will eventually lead back to God who is the FIRST CAUSE. It's called a law because man has never found exceptions.

But that assumes what you are proving is true.
The Law of Causality is proof of what I am saying. Give an example of anything (except God) that was not caused.


If man has free will, and he chooses to act according to that choice, God is not the first cause of his act.
It is not possible to make an UNINFLUENCED decision (your definition of Free Will). You can't self-create yourself from nothing. You are 100% an effect. Therefore you can't have Free Will because your choices are ALL an effect of previous causes with this First Cause being God (or, in theory, some other eternal power which is dualism). Now, deists would say God sets up a pool table and takes the first shot and then everything reacts according to the properties God gave them ... this too cannot be free will for the movement of one ball is caused by another ball with the First Cause still being God, the Great snooker player.


Only by regression back to Creation and in a court of law, no one does that.
Agreed, we don't have the ability to analyze every cause and effect. Heck, I don't even know all the causes of why I farted 10 minutes ago. I do know from logic that God determined I would fart and I did so freely, He did not force me ... He simply controls my desires such that I choose to fart .... got to go.... wife calling ...restaurant tonight, yummy.
No time to spell/grammar check/ audit
 
Phew, I was about to give up on the possibility of a rational conversation.

Yes ... this is the Law of Causality. Every effect has a cause. Because God is eternal, He is uncaused; He is the initiator of all effects (unless you propose another eternal entity). According to the Law of Causality anything you do, anything that happens will eventually lead back to God who is the FIRST CAUSE. It's called a law because man has never found exceptions.


The Law of Causality is proof of what I am saying. Give an example of anything (except God) that was not caused.



It is not possible to make an UNINFLUENCED decision (your definition of Free Will). You can't self-create yourself from nothing. You are 100% an effect. Therefore you can't have Free Will because your choices are ALL an effect of previous causes with this First Cause being God (or, in theory, some other eternal power which is dualism). Now, deists would say God sets up a pool table and takes the first shot and then everything reacts according to the properties God gave them ... this too cannot be free will for the movement of one ball is caused by another ball with the First Cause still being God, the Great snooker player.



Agreed, we don't have the ability to analyze every cause and effect. Heck, I don't even know all the causes of why I farted 10 minutes ago. I do know from logic that God determined I would fart and I did so freely, He did not force me ... He simply controls my desires such that I choose to fart .... got to go.... wife calling ...restaurant tonight, yummy.
No time to spell/grammar check/ audit
Satan rebelled against God and got Adam and Eve to do the same, which led to the fall. God did not create the fall so to me, He is not "first cause" of all the bad that happens in it.
 
You are missing the point.
NOBODY argues that God did not know what WOULD happen ... it is not God's knowledge of the future that is in question.

The question is God's ability to COMPEL His plan and the ABILITY of Pharaoh to have a FREE WILL to act contrary to what God desires. COULD Pharaoh have softened his heart and ended God's plan for a Passover? Did Pharaoh have THAT FREE WILL? Did Pharaoh have that ABILITY?

Scripture says that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" and you say "No, God only allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart." Scripture claims that GOD'S PLAN MUST HAPPEN and Pharaoh had no freedom to do otherwise. You claim that Pharaoh had the power within his FREE WILL to change God's Plan.

That is the point!

[The WILL is either FREE or it is NOT.]
I don't believe God compels the wicked do anything. They do it on their own. God raised up Pharaoh so he would be the person God confronts. But Pharaoh reacted to God as he chose. He could have let God's people go. He could have worshipped the True God. But he chose not to.

God knowing Pharaoh wouldn't do that didn't make Pharaoh do anything. And as its working out in real time, God is perfectly honest and sincere when he gives Pharaoh a chance to do right.

Hardening a heart makes one predisposed to do what they want to do, to manifest their free will.

If God didn't permit Satan work miracles through Pharaoh's magicians, its likely Pharaoh would have acted differently. He probably would have let Israel go BUT that wouldn't be his free will choice, he would only do it because he believed he had no choice.

So, God's hardening his heart protected Pharaoh's Free Will, when he saw his magicians do the same miracles his free will preference to resist God seemed possible.
 
Satan rebelled against God and got Adam and Eve to do the same, which led to the fall. God did not create the fall so to me, He is not "first cause" of all the bad that happens in it.
Well, that's your opinion and mind differs. Evidence is either scriptural, logical (rational) or empirical. Your statement of your believe lack any of these sources of evidence so you have not furthered your cause.

Aside: If God had wanted the representative of man to not eat of the tree of knowledge He simply could have created Adam2 (or Adam3) with the foreknowledge that that version of Adam would not eat the fruit. Therefore God wanted this to occur. So even if Adam had Free Will, God still determines the outcome by creating the version of Adam that accomplishes His purpose.
Of course I contend that God just caused it and God didn't have to go to Adam2 or 3 or whatever.

Question 3 for you:
Given:
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Question: if man has Free Will (able to chose without outside influence/control) how how this verse be true?
Seems like the decisions of the people of cities was determine by Christ (God).

____________________________________________________________________
Still waiting for answers to the following 2 questions:
Scenario 1:
1 Corinthians 15:34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”.

The choice is there. Either you can continue the rest of your life and never sin or you can decide to sin.
Question 1: What have you freely chosen to do and why?


Scenario 2:
Premise 1: People are without excuse (Romans 1)
Premise 2: One must have faith in Christ to be saved (John 3:18) (we'll keep it simple and restrict this to last 2000 yrs)
Premise 3: Billions of people have died in last 2000 years who never heard of Christ
Question 2 ... assuming you agree the premises are correct .... did these people have a choice which could save them from damnation???
 
Last edited:
Well, that's your opinion and mind differs. Evidence is either scriptural, logical (rational) or empirical. Your statement of your believe lack any of these sources of evidence so you have not furthered your cause.

Aside: If God had wanted the representative of man to not eat of the tree of knowledge He simply could have created Adam2 (or Adam3) with the foreknowledge that that version of Adam would not eat the fruit. Therefore God wanted this to occur. So even if Adam had Free Will, God still determines the outcome by creating the version of Adam that accomplishes His purpose.
Of course I contend that God just caused it and God didn't have to go to Adam2 or 3 or whatever.

Question 3 for you:
Given:
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Question: if man has Free Will (able to chose without outside influence/control) how how this verse be true?
Seems like the decisions of the people of cities was determine by Christ (God).

____________________________________________________________________
Still waiting for answers to the following 2 questions:
Scenario 1:
1 Corinthians 15:34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”.

The choice is there. Either you can continue the rest of your life and never sin or you can decide to sin.
Question 1: What have you freely chosen to do and why?


Scenario 2:
Premise 1: People are without excuse (Romans 1)
Premise 2: One must have faith in Christ to be saved (John 3:18) (we'll keep it simple and restrict this to last 2000 yrs)
Premise 3: Billions of people have died in last 2000 years who never heard of Christ
Question 2 ... assuming you agree the premises are correct .... did these people have a choice which could save them from damnation???
Implied in your reply is that God created to achieve what exists now. That if He didn't want it, He would have created an Adam who wouldn't have sinned. But that is wrong, now that the Fall happened, He is planning to replace it with a New Heavens and Earth:

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. (Isa. 65:17 KJV)

As for Question 1, you took that out of context. "Awake to righteousness and sin not". CSB translates "Come to your senses and stop sinning"; NAU "Become sober-minded and you ought, and stop sinning".

The "sin" is the "error" of fellowship with false teachers; of not being of "sober mind" correcting the "bad company who say there is no resurrection:

32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.
33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" (1 Cor. 15:32-35 NAU)

Question 2 doesn't apply to me:

Question 3 doesn't make sense. Chorazin and Bethsaida chose not believe Christ, despite His miracles (which would have convinced the Canaanite cities of Tyre and Sidon).

It is because Chorazin and Bethsaida should have chosen to believe, that Christ pronounces Woe upon them.

20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 "Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."
(Matt. 11:20-24 NAU)
 
Implied in your reply is that God created to achieve what exists now. That if He didn't want it, He would have created an Adam who wouldn't have sinned. But that is wrong
Why is it wrong? It is correct to say God is able to create a man who will not sin back in the garden of Eden.
Reasoning: God is all knowing and all powerful.
Aside: If give reasoning and scripture to support my claims .... you rarely do ... wonder why that is :chin


He is planning to replace it with a New Heavens and Earth:
Agreed. I don't see the relevance to our discussion.
 
Why is it wrong? It is correct to say God is able to create a man who will not sin back in the garden of Eden.
Reasoning: God is all knowing and all powerful.
Aside: If give reasoning and scripture to support my claims .... you rarely do ... wonder why that is :chin



Agreed. I don't see the relevance to our discussion.
You argue God wanted a fallen world, or He would have created an Adam who wouldn't disobey His command.

Why then, is God creating a New Heavens and New earth?

Clearly, a fallen world is NOT what He wanted.

You keep saying I don't detail my argument and support it with Scripture. You aren't reading my replies.

Suggestion. Reread my past few posts to you, stop "jumping ahead" as you read. Slow down, read it a couple of times. Think about what I said. After you clearly understand what I said, reply.
 
1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (traditional)
1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (modern English)

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment Thereof​

Chapter 6​


Paragraph 1​

Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof,1 yet he did not long abide in this honor; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given to them, in eating the forbidden fruit,2 which God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.

1 Gen. 2:16–17
2 Gen. 3:12–13; 2 Cor. 11:3

Paragraph 2​

Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all:3 all becoming dead in sin,4 and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.5

3 Rom. 3:23
4 Rom 5:12, etc.
5 Titus 1:15; Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 3:10–19

Paragraph 3​

They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation,6 being now conceived in sin,7 and by nature children of wrath,8 the servants of sin, the subjects of death,9 and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.10

6 Rom. 5:12–19; 1 Cor. 15:21–22,45,49
7 Ps. 51:5; Job 14:4
8 Eph. 2:3
9 Rom. 6:20, 5:12
10 Heb. 2:14–15; 1 Thess. 1:10

Paragraph 4​

From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil,11 do proceed all actual transgressions.12

11 Rom. 8:7; Col. 1:21
12 James 1:14–15; Matt. 15:19


Paragraph 5​

The corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;13 and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.14

13 Rom. 7:18,23; Eccles. 7:20; 1 John 1:8
14 Rom. 7:23–25; Gal. 5:17

Moving on from God to Man ...
 
Chapter 6, Paragraph 4 (in modern English) ... with proof texts inserted:

All actual transgressions arise from this first corruption.
  • James 1:14-15 [NKJV] "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."
  • Matthew 15:19 [NKJV] "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."
By it we are thoroughly biased against, and disabled and antagonistic toward all that is good, and we are completely inclined toward all that is evil.
  • Romans 8:7 [NKJV] "Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be."
  • Colossians 1:21 [NKJV] "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled"
An affirmation of man born fallen. A denial of Pelagianism (men are good and capable of innate perfection through the power of our will).

From where does our initial "heart" and "desires" and "carnal mind" come?
  • Inherited from Adam (spiritual genetics)?
  • The curse of God (Genesis 2-3)?
  • Educated in a fallen world (nurture rather than nature)?
 
From where does our initial "heart" and "desires" and "carnal mind" come?
  • Inherited from Adam (spiritual genetics)?
  • The curse of God (Genesis 2-3)?
  • Educated in a fallen world (nurture rather than nature)?
They debate where our soul ("heart" and "desires" and "carnal mind") come from; whether it be God or our parent.
:chin not like I'm going to come up with something to settle the case. I will say it's not the 3rd choice and put my 'chips' on #2 with Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being] AMP


Paragraph 1
Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honor; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion did willfully transgress the law of their creation,
That would be in conflict with the Law of Causality (every effect has a cause).
Compulsion-irresistible impulse to act, regardless of the rationality of the motivation. (Libertian Free Will ... hmmm)
 
I agree. They chose badly without any "HELP" from God.

I describe "Total Depravity" as the UNWILLINGNESS of fallen man (everyone that is unsaved) to choose God, so men exercise their Free and Fallen Will to choose to reject God with 100% constancy. If God did NOTHING about it, EVERYONE would fall into the "already condemned" camp BY THEIR OWN FREE CHOICE.

There is no such concept as total depravity in any scripture.
Man is described as being unrighteous.
Romans 3:11
“No one is righteous—
not even one.
11No one is truly wise;
no one is seeking God.
12All have turned away;
all have become useless.
No one does good,
not a single one.”d
13“Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave.
Their tongues are filled with lies.”
“Snake venom drips from their lips.”e
14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”f
15“They rush to commit murder.
16Destruction and misery always follow them.
17They don’t know where to find peace.”g
18“They have no fear of God at all.”

It's fools that do not believe in God.
And we are unable to seek God on our own without help from Him.
But if God directs us to seek Him and say that He can be found,
it means that SOMEHOW we are able to do this.
What makes it possible is that God reveals Himself to all men so that they will be without excuse.
Romans 1:19-20 is a most important passage of scripture.
It holds the key to many beliefs.

And there are many verses that state we are able to seek God.
So you must reconcile the above two and not concentrate on only the depravity part of the equation.
The reformed beliefs leave too many conflicts to resolve.
How to resolve your idea of total depravity with the following?
You say God cannot be sought...the following say He can:

Matthew 6:33

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.


It is by GRACE that God intervenes and "Irresistibly Draws" those whom God "Unconditionally Chose" and whpl God "Preserves as Saints" until He glorifies them. So our FREE WILL Guarantees our damnation and God's Sovereign Election overrides our decision and claims us for His Salvation.

Where does it state that God irresistibly draws or unconditinally chooses?
God does elect us...we are the elect...
but it's based on something...it's conditional.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

And here are the conditions:
Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent,
John 3:14-18

14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

We do not decree God's choice ... that is what Monergism and the Reformation is all about.
Neither does God decree our choice....
God wants us to love Him freely...not by coercion on His side.
 
Last edited:
Neither does God decree our choice....
God wants us to love Him freely...not by coercion on His side.
We were NEVER free …
  • John 8:34 [NLT] Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin.
  • Romans 7:14 [NLT] So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin.
  • Ephesians 2:1-3 [NLT] Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.
That is why God had to snatch us out of slavery, bondage, death … and GOD saves in spite of us, not because of us. God does not COERCE, God EMPOWERS the corpse with life.
 
That would be in conflict with the Law of Causality (every effect has a cause).
  • I just robbed a bank because a man strapped a bomb to me and threatened to blow me up if I didn’t do what he said.
  • I just robbed a bank because I was fired from my job for stealing to support my drug addiction and now I really need another fix.

In both cases, the EFFECT has a CAUSE (no violation of Causality, here). In both cases, one cannot say I willfully transgressed without any compulsion. In one case, the cause was my desires and in another case the cause was compulsion contrary to my desires.

So did Adam beg “Please God, don’t MAKE me eat the fruit and sin against you!” … but God turned His face from Adam and HARDENED Adam’s heart irresistibly compelling Adam to sin? Is that how it happened? God was the FIRST CAUSE and Adam WAS compelled to sin by God?
 
Well A, oddly enough Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
I did not want you to think that I had ignored this whole post …
… I simply disagree.

I think that it is clear that GOD is GOD and it was God that was in control of events starting with Jacob getting a wife that set a stage for the creation of 12 tribes in captivity in Egypt to be freed by a Moses via a Passover all to teach us about a coming Christ that would save mankind. Every person and event was chosen and controlled by God to achieve God’s plan and purpose. Pharaoh was as much God’s puppet as Satan was God’s puppet in the book of Job. Proverbs 21:1 [NLT] “The king's heart is like a stream of water directed by the LORD; he guides it wherever he pleases.
 
  • I just robbed a bank because a man strapped a bomb to me and threatened to blow me up if I didn’t do what he said.
  • I just robbed a bank because I was fired from my job for stealing to support my drug addiction and now I really need another fix.

In both cases, the EFFECT has a CAUSE (no violation of Causality, here). In both cases, one cannot say I willfully transgressed without any compulsion. In one case, the cause was my desires and in another case the cause was compulsion contrary to my desires.
Agreed so far. Every effect has a cause.

did Adam beg “Please God, don’t MAKE me eat the fruit and sin against you!”
No, Adam was not be directly forced by God to eat the apple. Adam's desires caused him to freely chose to eat the fruit. Adam's eating the fruit of and effect of his desires. What/who gave Adam his desires ... God. Adam's desires are the effect and God is the cause. This follows the law of causality; that things always happen for a reason.

When the Confession says Adam was "without compulsion" it is saying one of two things in my mind:
  1. there was no reason to do what he did (libertarian free will); Adam didn't eat the fruit because of his own desires. This would be an amoral decision that Adam would be condemned for.
  2. If "without compulsion" means Adam desired to do it without any external influence then you break the law of causality. I assume the latter.
"Without compulsion" contradicts the Law of Causality. (Aside: "Without compulsion" also creates a lot more theological dilemmas, but let's keep it simple *giggles at "keep it simple"*


… but God turned His face from Adam and HARDENED Adam’s heart irresistibly compelling Adam to sin? Is that how it happened? God was the FIRST CAUSE and Adam WAS compelled to sin by God?
God gave Adam his desires. A created being cannot forge its own desires. Desires are also a creation. God created all things. God sustains all things. All things works towards God's purpose.

God cannot will any other thing but himself as his end, because there is nothing superior to himself in goodness. Stephen Charnock - Existence and Attributes of God
  • Colossians 1:15 He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.
  • Romans 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen.
  • Acts 17:28a For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being],
  • Hebrew 1:3a upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word
 
Back
Top