1689 London Confession

[Alfred Persson]

I did not want you to think that I had ignored this whole post …
… I simply disagree.

I think that it is clear that GOD is GOD and it was God that was in control of events starting with Jacob getting a wife that set a stage for the creation of 12 tribes in captivity in Egypt to be freed by a Moses via a Passover all to teach us about a coming Christ that would save mankind. Every person and event was chosen and controlled by God to achieve God’s plan and purpose. Pharaoh was as much God’s puppet as Satan was God’s puppet in the book of Job. Proverbs 21:1 [NLT] “The king's heart is like a stream of water directed by the LORD; he guides it wherever he pleases.”

Consider the simile of water. Gravity pulls it down, that is "its heart's desire". Government directs that water that is flowing downward toward the ocean, to various aqueducts, to farms and cities, wherever it pleases them. Government didn't cause the water's "heart desire" when it directed it wherever they wanted. Eventually it does down to the ocean.

 

[atpollard]

What/who gave Adam his desires ... God.

Not directly.
If we reread the story it was Satan in the form of a talking snake that deceived Eve (not God) and it was Eve that gave the fruit to Adam (not God). So, like the story of Job (in the book of the same name), God is the First Cause and God makes use of secondary causes to accomplish His plans. [which is what the Confession made a point of earlier.]

 

[atpollard]

Consider the simile of water. Gravity pulls it down, that is "its heart's desire". Government directs that water that is flowing downward toward the ocean, to various aqueducts, to farms and cities, wherever it pleases them. Government didn't cause the water's "heart desire" when it directed it wherever they wanted. Eventually it does down to the ocean.

I will go one step further. God commands the Earth controlling the water. If left to its unrestrained desire, the water would fall as rain from the sky directly to the waters of the ocean. So too, God restrains man’s evil desires (like those of Satan in the Book of Job) … permitting our desires to fall so far and no further. Thus for God to “harden a heart” requires only that God “restrain less” that heart from the hardness it naturally desires.

This is what we see in Romans 1 as God gives the reprobate over to their desires.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did not want you to think that I had ignored this whole post …
… I simply disagree.

I think that it is clear that GOD is GOD and it was God that was in control of events starting with Jacob getting a wife that set a stage for the creation of 12 tribes in captivity in Egypt to be freed by a Moses via a Passover all to teach us about a coming Christ that would save mankind. Every person and event was chosen and controlled by God to achieve God’s plan and purpose. Pharaoh was as much God’s puppet as Satan was God’s puppet in the book of Job. Proverbs 21:1 [NLT] “The king's heart is like a stream of water directed by the LORD; he guides it wherever he pleases.”

You could disagree but I gave you the verses.
It states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and THEN God
hardened his heart...IOW, God gave up.
He pulled away His direction and left Pharaoh to himself and used it for His own purposes.

 

[GodsGrace]

We were NEVER free …

• John 8:34 [NLT] Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin.
• Romans 7:14 [NLT] So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin.
• Ephesians 2:1-3 [NLT] Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.

That is why God had to snatch us out of slavery, bondage, death … and GOD saves in spite of us, not because of us. God does not COERCE, God EMPOWERS the corpse with life.

We are not free when we serve satan. Satan keeps us ensnared.
We're free only when we serve God.
Romans 6:6-7
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7for he who has died is freed from sin.

John 8:34 Of course everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
But Romans 6:16 tells us that we are slaves to whom we present ourselves.
To whom we PRESENT OURSELVES. We are free to present ourselves to whom we freely choose.

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?


Romans 6:19
....For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

 

[GodsGrace]

Been there, done that …
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-discussion-on-total-depravity.95683/

Are you serious? (about going to a different thread, I mean).
Total Depravity is not biblical.
We are depraved, body, soul and spirit.

But total depravity means we are UNABLE to seek God.
How many times do I have to post verses that say WE ARE TO SEEK GOD?

Does it mean nothing to you that there is so much conflict with biblical teaching?

Jesus tells us to GO TO HIM....
COME TO ME...is an invitation.
WE must GO TO HIM.

Matthew 11:28-30
28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Come to me is a command requiring an action IF we wish to go to Jesus.
Take my yoke is a command requiring an action IF we wish to follow Jesus.


Jesus tells us to repent in
Matthew 4:17
17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Why would God tell us to repent if He knew we couldn't?
Why make it a command?
Apparently, it's because Jesus knew we could and were able to repent.

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems we have also been there, done that with Unconditional Election …

https://christianforums.net/threads/discussion-on-unconditional-election.95827/

Oh well.
Just save me some time and say you don't wish to discuss...

 

[GodsGrace]

• John 6:37 (I) [NLT] 37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.
• Romans 9:16 (U) [NLT] 16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

We have been there and done that with Irresistible Grace, too …
https://christianforums.net/threads/redemption-atonement-us-vs-them-the-l-of-tulip.95958/

Everyone that goes to Jesus does so because that person is answering to the revelation from God.
It's Jesus who is the savior of everyone in the world that wishes to be saved.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:15
15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
Ephesians 2:4-5
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
When we were dead in our sin, God made us alive through Christ BY HIS BLOOD, verse 13
And through God's mercy He saved us BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH....
Through faith we are saved by God's grace...
a gift from God. The gift is all of the above:
Salvation
Grace
Faith

Faith is a gift anyone could receive if they want it.
Luke 11:9-10
9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Not directly.
If we reread the story it was Satan in the form of a talking snake that deceived Eve (not God) and it was Eve that gave the fruit to Adam (not God). So, like the story of Job (in the book of the same name), God is the First Cause and God makes use of secondary causes to accomplish His plans. [which is what the Confession made a point of earlier.]

Yeah, I can go along with that. (not that you and I agreeing makes our ideas right *giggle*)
I might add #1.

1. God creates Adam's desires (a land mine included so to speak). God didn't have to put the "land mine" there. When we get to heaven God changes our desires; no more "land mines".
2. God sends Satan and Eve to set the land mine off

 

[Alfred Persson]

Are you serious? (about going to a different thread, I mean).
Total Depravity is not biblical.
We are depraved, body, soul and spirit.

But total depravity means we are UNABLE to seek God.
How many times do I have to post verses that say WE ARE TO SEEK GOD?

Does it mean nothing to you that there is so much conflict with biblical teaching?

Jesus tells us to GO TO HIM....
COME TO ME...is an invitation.
WE must GO TO HIM.

Matthew 11:28-30
28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Come to me is a command requiring an action IF we wish to go to Jesus.
Take my yoke is a command requiring an action IF we wish to follow Jesus.


Jesus tells us to repent in
Matthew 4:17
17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Why would God tell us to repent if He knew we couldn't?
Why make it a command?
Apparently, it's because Jesus knew we could and were able to repent.

Prevenient Grace resolves the apparent contradiction of God commanding us to "seek Him" and Paul's words "none seek God."

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. (Rom. 3:10-11 NKJ)
Prevenient Grace refers to the grace of God that precedes and prepares a person's heart for salvation, enabling them to respond to God's invitation with faith.

6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:6-9 NKJ)



Humanity is affected by the Fall and is unable to come to God on their own. Prevenient grace is the work of the Holy Spirit that goes before, or precedes, a person's conversion. It is seen as a divine initiative to awaken and draw individuals towards God, enabling them to freely choose to respond to God's offer of salvation.

So I can accept Total Depravity as Paul taught, we are fallen creatures. But in context Scripture reveals everyone has an equal shot at being saved, because God draws all to Himself, and brings all to a point where they can seek God and choose.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn. 6:44 KJV)

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." (Jn. 12:32 NKJ)

Its not God's fault some decline to seek God or choose death, that's on them.

The Lord is ...longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9 NKJ)

Christ's sacrifice is available to everyone, not just us only:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

 

[atpollard]

Does it mean nothing to you that there is so much conflict with biblical teaching?

It means something …

"O Lord, command what you will and give what you command" — St. Augustine​

“For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.” - Philippians 2:13 [NLT]

“But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.” - 1 Corinthians 2:14 [NLT]

“The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. ... Then he said, "That is why I said that people can't come to me unless the Father gives them to me." - John 6:63, 65 [NLT]

… no conflict, all agree God does the saving, not our choosing.

 

[atpollard]

Why would God tell us to repent if He knew we couldn't?
Why make it a command?
Apparently, it's because Jesus knew we could and were able to repent.

John 10:25-30 [NLT]
Jesus replied, "I have already told you, and you don't believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father's name. But you don't believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father's hand. The Father and I are one."

• The FATHER gives some to the SON making them His sheep.
• Most will not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.
• His sheep WILL hear and believe, and Jesus will give THEM (His Sheep, those that His Father gave to Him) eternal life.
• So the command is broadcast to all:
  • For most it brings conviction because they WILL NOT believe (and cannot because they are not His sheep and it is ‘foolishness’ to them)
  • For some, the command leads them to Life (because they are His sheep, given to Jesus by the Father).

John revealed how Jesus explained why … we just have to BELIEVE Jesus.

 

[atpollard]

Yeah, I can go along with that. (not that you and I agreeing makes our ideas right *giggle*)
I might add #1.

1. God creates Adam's desires (a land mine included so to speak). God didn't have to put the "land mine" there. When we get to heaven God changes our desires; no more "land mines".
2. God sends Satan and Eve to set the land mine off

As ‘dark’ is a measure of how far from ‘light’ a space is, so SIN is a measure of how far we miss the mark of GOD’s PERFECTION. Was it innately bad for Adam and Eve to desire to be more like God? (I would argue that the desire God created was good.)

Is was the misapplication of what was ‘good’ that made it ‘miss the mark’ and become sin. Not unlike how LOVE is innately good, but LUST is the misapplication of something good to make it evil.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It means something …

"O Lord, command what you will and give what you command" — St. Augustine​

“For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.” - Philippians 2:13 [NLT]

“But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.” - 1 Corinthians 2:14 [NLT]

“The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. ... Then he said, "That is why I said that people can't come to me unless the Father gives them to me." - John 6:63, 65 [NLT]

… no conflict, all agree God does the saving, not our choosing.

You do realize those verses describe Prevenient Grace and its continuation after one is saved.

Not one scripture can be found teaching God reprobates unto damnation.

The doctrine of Reprobation is an inference, thought to be the corollary of Election. But that assumes only the Elect are written in the book of life. That is not correct.

Its correct the names of the Elect are in the Book of Life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8) but other names in it cannot be "the Elect" because they can be blotted out (Rev. 3:5; Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28) or written in (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Dan. 12:1; Mal. 3:16).

That requires other books exist, one book of names and deeds for those who will be written into the book of life, and another book of names and their deeds for those who will be blotted out, so they can be properly listed for judgment.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev. 20:12 NKJ)

 

[GodsGrace]

Prevenient Grace resolves the apparent contradiction of God commanding us to "seek Him" and Paul's words "none seek God."

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. (Rom. 3:10-11 NKJ)
Prevenient Grace refers to the grace of God that precedes and prepares a person's heart for salvation, enabling them to respond to God's invitation with faith.

6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:6-9 NKJ)



Humanity is affected by the Fall and is unable to come to God on their own. Prevenient grace is the work of the Holy Spirit that goes before, or precedes, a person's conversion. It is seen as a divine initiative to awaken and draw individuals towards God, enabling them to freely choose to respond to God's offer of salvation.

So I can accept Total Depravity as Paul taught, we are fallen creatures. But in context Scripture reveals everyone has an equal shot at being saved, because God draws all to Himself, and brings all to a point where they can seek God and choose.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn. 6:44 KJV)

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." (Jn. 12:32 NKJ)

Its not God's fault some decline to seek God or choose death, that's on them.

The Lord is ...longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9 NKJ)

Christ's sacrifice is available to everyone, not just us only:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

Amen.
Great post.
Yes. The other member and i have discussed prevenient grace but, of course, it doesn't fit into the reformed paradigm.
There are no conflicts in the bible.
Reformed theology creates conflicts.

 

[atpollard]

Not one scripture can be found teaching God reprobates unto damnation.

After Adam, God doesn’t NEED to reprobate unto damnation. God could put up His feet, fold his hands and DO NOTHING and all mankind would SELF-REPROBATE UNTO DAMNATION.

 

[brightfame52]

alfredP

Not one scripture can be found teaching God reprobates unto damnation.

2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Thats close enough !

 

[Alfred Persson]

alfredP


2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Thats close enough !

No one gets the prize because they were close.

In context, God sends the strong delusion because they already rejected His truth:

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:9-12 NKJ)

Prevenient Grace, God's Holy Spirit convicted them to love the truth, but they hardened their own hearts and did not receive the love of God's truth. Because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What was "sent". Strong delusion isn't a literal translation.

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, (2 Thess. 2:11 NAU)

God stopped restraining "satanic energy that deceives inwardly via spiritual experiences" (2 Thess. 2:7), its called the "mystery" (or secret power) that inspires people to be lawless, disobey the Bible.

But its still a choice whether one heeds their own spiritual experiences or obeys the Bible.

God won't override free will choice. Rather, He will orchestrate events so free will choice to do evil manifests itself within the appointed time, to serve God's purposes.

The book of Revelation reveals an example of this "sending". God's restraint keeping the spirits of demons in the Abyss is lifted---the door opened and out pour demon possessed locusts. The biotec Locusts permit these spirits to physically attack apostates. For five months apostates reluctant to keep following the Man of Sin as he morphs into the Seed of Satan "Son of Destruction", are tormented until they do. They want to follow the Beast, but they were reluctant knowing accepting his mark and worshipping him results in eternal torment in the lake of fire. It took five months of demonic "convincing" to get them to manifest themselves within the time allotted:

NKJ Revelation 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
(Rev. 9:1-11 NKJ)

 

[brightfame52]

No one gets the prize because they were close.

In context, God sends the strong delusion because they already rejected His truth:

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:9-12 NKJ)

Prevenient Grace, God's Holy Spirit convicted them to love the truth, but they hardened their own hearts and did not receive the love of God's truth. Because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What was "sent". Strong delusion isn't a literal translation.

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, (2 Thess. 2:11 NAU)

God stopped restraining "satanic energy that deceives inwardly via spiritual experiences" (2 Thess. 2:7), its called the "mystery" (or secret power) that inspires people to be lawless, disobey the Bible.

But its still a choice whether one heeds their own spiritual experiences or obeys the Bible.

God won't override free will choice. Rather, He will orchestrate events so free will choice to do evil manifests itself within the appointed time, to serve God's purposes.

The book of Revelation reveals an example of this "sending". God's restraint keeping the spirits of demons in the Abyss is lifted---the door opened and out pour demon possessed locusts. The biotec Locusts permit these spirits to physically attack apostates. For five months apostates reluctant to keep following the Man of Sin as he morphs into the Seed of Satan "Son of Destruction", are tormented until they do. They want to follow the Beast, but they were reluctant knowing accepting his mark and worshipping him results in eternal torment in the lake of fire. It took five months of demonic "convincing" to get them to manifest themselves within the time allotted:

NKJ Revelation 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
(Rev. 9:1-11 NKJ)

Its God that sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie and be damned.

 

[GodsGrace]

Its God that sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie and be damned.

Why does God have the need to send an illusion?
All God has to do is not choose the guy in question.

Easy.

(And once again scripture is twisted and made to be illogical)