1689 London Confession

[Fastfredy0]

Premise 1

That often requires I rethink and correct a position.

Premise 2:

That hasn't happened here, yet. It could, but so far, no.

Premise 3:
Hundreds of disagreement on here
Conclusion: Confirmation Bias

 

[brightfame52]

atpollard

With that said, I stand with the Baptist Confession in making a distinction between what God actively does as the First Cause and what God Sovereignty permits or restrains through secondary causes. God is God over both, but it is a distinction WITH a difference (imho ... and according to Scripture).

God is the first cause of secondary causes, what God permits is due to the fact its of His First and Primary Cause, His Eternal Purpose. For instance, God forseen that Dam would sin and bring death into the world because He purposed it before Adam or any other secondary cause was in existence, yea even before satan existed. When God created the world, everything He created was created subservient to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus, beginning with the first grain of dirt. Eph 3:10-11

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Everything was Created FOR Jesus Christ and Gods Eternal Purpose Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[Fastfredy0]

Only God knows why He chooses who he chooses

• When you proceed further to ask why he so willed, you are seeking something greater and higher than God's will, which cannot be found. Vincent Cheung – Ultimate Questions God is the ‘first cause’; He is not an effect so there is no WHY.
• Nothing out of God can be the cause of any effect; for then there would be a cause prior to him, the Cause of himself, and that would be God, and not he. John Gill - Body to Doctrinal Divinity
• God is the first cause and therefore there is no WHY when referring to God as there is nothing to affect Him.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, the Elect obtained it, but did the non-elect fall forever?

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Rom. 11:7-12 KJV)

You see these verses, but can't acknowledge what they say because it contradicts the premise only the Elect can be saved.

Remove that premise, and read it again, and you must conclude the non-Elect stumbled, but did not fall into damnation. In fact, the fulness of them will be saved also.

If one isnt of the election of Grace, then God hardens them to damnation Justly so. Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
God is active and not passive in hardening and reprobation.
Jesus articulated it as well Jn 9:39
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If one isnt of the election of Grace, then God hardens them to damnation Justly so. Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
God is active and not passive in hardening and reprobation.
Jesus articulated it as well Jn 9:39
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Rom. 11:7-12 KJV)

You can't understand the words in bold font above, because you don't want to.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Premise 1

Premise 2:

Premise 3:
Hundreds of disagreement on here
Conclusion: Confirmation Bias

I agree, but not on my part.

 

[brightfame52]

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Rom. 11:7-12 KJV)

You can't understand the words in bold font above, because you don't want to.

Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Election and Reprobation

 

[atpollard]

I agree, but not on my part.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I agree, but not on my part.

More evidence that you have confirmation bias *giggle* (we all do)

 

[jasonc]

ME TOO ... vast confusion of theories ... I like Pre-mill 'cause it makes for cool narrative. Gee, Sproul end up amillennial in the end ... I think Reform are amill ...not sure ... don't care much ... lol

• NET© If anyone dares to challenge you, it will not be my doing! Whoever tries to challenge you will be defeated.
• NIV© If anyone does attack you, it will not be my doing; whoever attacks you will surrender to you.
• NASB© "If anyone fiercely assails you it will not be from Me. Whoever assails you will fall because of you.
• ESV© If anyone stirs up strife,it is not from me;whoever stirs up strife with youshall fall because of you.
• NLT© If any nation comes to fight you, it is not because I sent them. Whoever attacks you will go down in defeat.
• MSG© If anyone attacks you, don’t for a moment suppose that I sent them, And if any should attack, nothing will come of it.
• BBE© See, they may be moved to war, but not by my authority: all those who come together to make an attack on you, will be broken against you.
• NKJV© Indeed they shall surely assemble, but not because of Me. Whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake.
• NRSV© If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you.

hmmm.... well, can't say the troublesome verse is a bad translation ... they all agree except the MSG which is a poor version

Maybe, when God said IT IS NOT MY DOING .... maybe He's referring to Him not doing it directly and putting blame on some Second Cause (the verse doesn't fit my doctrine and I can't as yet give a solid explanation ... the verse also contradicts other verses) ... oh, well, can't win them all

R.c. sproul was preterist

 

[Alfred Persson]

More evidence that you have confirmation bias *giggle* (we all do)

Paul names two Groups that will be saved: The ELECT and Israel.

Israel was blinded at first but "have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not!"

Therefore, both Elect and Non-Elect (their fullness) will be saved.

Yet, none of you agree = Confirmation Bias

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
(Rom. 11:7-12 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

None of us are:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented--
38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. (Heb. 11:37-38 NKJ)

I quote their words, its on us to believe them.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Paul names two Groups that will be saved: The ELECT and Israel.

Israel was blinded at first but "have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not!"

Therefore, both Elect and Non-Elect (their fullness) will be saved.

Error of equivocation IMO ... but I'm not going to unravel it.

 

[GodsGrace]

How so?
Where does God give them (the generation of Noah) the same opportunity to be saved?

Hi A
God didn't pick and choose who would be saved.
Everyone was without excuse since God revealed Himself as per Romans 1.

Since everyone had the same opportunity to either accept God's revelation or not, this made God's condemnation just.

However, this was not my point.
My point has to do with the many conflicts that reformed theology causes. I've said many times that it just does not make sense and it pits God against Himself. Here's how in this case:

God decreed that behavior of Noah's neighbors.
Everyone had become so evil and sinful.
God was sorry He created mankind.

But wait.

It was God that made man to be sinful...He decreed their behavior...

Why create them in such a way that would make Him be sorry?
He changed His mind??
Why not just create them they way He wanted them to be so He wouldn't have to have regret?

Why didn't He just make more nice people instead of having to destroy mankind...

God doesn't change His mind.
God doesn't make mistakes.

According to the reformed He surely must if we use the story of Noah.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Election and Reprobation

Which is it.
Were they blinded
Or
Were they blind from birth?
You know, the reformed teach total depravity From Birth...

 

[brightfame52]

Which is it.
Were they blinded
Or
Were they blind from birth?
You know, the reformed teach total depravity From Birth...

Both

 

[GodsGrace]

Both

How could it be both?

 

[brightfame52]

How could it be both?

People are born spiritually blind and then God blinds people in Justice

 

[GodsGrace]

People are born spiritually blind and then God blinds people in Justice

What?
How could we be more blind than blind?

 

[atpollard]

My point has to do with the many conflicts that reformed theology causes. I've said many times that it just does not make sense and it pits God against Himself. Here's how in this case:

So you say, but the the Free Will alternative raises far greater conflicts.

God decreed that behavior of Noah's neighbors.
Everyone had become so evil and sinful.
God was sorry He created mankind.

Do you deny any of this?
Was God not in control from Adam until the time of Noah?
Was that the age when MEN RULED THE UNIVERSE?
Was God sorry He created mankind or not? Is it a poetic device used to make a literary point or was God admitting to having made a mistake and being imperfect? Which is your FREE WILL alternative if you are going to paraody reformed theology by mocking it with satire?

But wait.

It was God that made man to be sinful...He decreed their behavior...

Again, what is YOUR answer. DID God make man the way he was or did God loose control of His creation or did God make a mistake? What is your alternative to our “Yes, God did it on purpose” answer?

Why create them in such a way that would make Him be sorry?
He changed His mind??
Why not just create them they way He wanted them to be so He wouldn't have to have regret?

Why didn't He just make more nice people instead of having to destroy mankind...

God doesn't change His mind.
God doesn't make mistakes.

According to the reformed He surely must if we use the story of Noah.

Now that you have gotten the mockery out of your system, perhaps you can explain to me your alternative where the actions of an infinite God are directed by the ALL POWERFUL choices of the mortal creatures that He created. How has God lost control and been reduced to being forced to merely react to whatever we decide to do? We have become the CAUSE that controls the actions of GOD … and you claim that is a much better THEOLOGY than a Sovereign GOD exerting absolute control over His creation to bring to fruition His predetermined plan.