1689 London Confession

[atpollard]

How could it be both?

[Rom 1:18 NKJV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

• They suppress the truth … they are blind.

[Rom 1:21 NKJV] 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

• Then their foolish hearts were darkened … they became more blind.

[Rom 1:24 NKJV] 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

• So God gave them up to uncleanness … God made them even more blind.

[Rom 1:26 NKJV] 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

• God gave them up to vile passions … further blinding the blind even blinder.

[Rom 1:28 NKJV] 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

• God gave them over to a debased mind … they achieved a state of ultimate blindness.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Error of equivocation IMO ... but I'm not going to unravel it.

You missed there are two kinds of election, and both exist in the context:

Paul began distinguishing Israel (who was blinded and did not obtain salvation) from individuals "the Elect" (who weren't blinded and did obtain salvation) Rom. 11:7.

Therefore, "election for the sake of the fathers" (Rom. 11:28) is corporate "election" granted to Israel "for the sake of the fathers", because God promised the Patriarchs their descendants would live in the promised land forever.

So neither Paul or I am guilty of equivocation.

God is not Partial. The same opportunity for life He grants Israel in hell He will extend to the Gentiles, just as He extended the Old Covenant He had with Israel, to the New Covenant with the Entire Earth.

 

[brightfame52]

What?
How could we be more blind than blind?

Easy, all are born blind by nature, then God blinds people as a Judgment against sin. When God deals with a sinner He either deals with them in Mercy, or in strict Justice for their sin.

For instance Pharoah as all men are by nature was dead in sin, spiritually blind and deaf, yet God is said to harden his heart , but that doesnt mean pharoahs heart wasnt already spiritually hard towards God. Now that's all i can tell you, if you dont accept it, thats fine, doesnt make it not true.

 

[GodsGrace]

So you say, but the the Free Will alternative raises far greater conflicts.


Do you deny any of this?
Was God not in control from Adam until the time of Noah?
Was that the age when MEN RULED THE UNIVERSE?
Was God sorry He created mankind or not? Is it a poetic device used to make a literary point or was God admitting to having made a mistake and being imperfect? Which is your FREE WILL alternative if you are going to paraody reformed theology by mocking it with satire?


Again, what is YOUR answer. DID God make man the way he was or did God loose control of His creation or did God make a mistake? What is your alternative to our “Yes, God did it on purpose” answer?


Now that you have gotten the mockery out of your system, perhaps you can explain to me your alternative where the actions of an infinite God are directed by the ALL POWERFUL choices of the mortal creatures that He created. How has God lost control and been reduced to being forced to merely react to whatever we decide to do? We have become the CAUSE that controls the actions of GOD … and you claim that is a much better THEOLOGY than a Sovereign GOD exerting absolute control over His creation to bring to fruition His predetermined plan.

I'm not mocking.
Should I use smiley faces?
I'm very serious.
God cannot be pitted against Himself.
This happens other times too.
Reformed theology also represents Jesus as being unaware that it is God that predestinates or decrees. For instance when He cries over Jerusalem. Why cry over something God decreed? Was Jesus not aware of the system??

Please take my posts seriously, no matter how they may sound. I'm sorry that you think I'm being mocking.

 

[GodsGrace]

[Rom 1:18 NKJV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

• They suppress the truth … they are blind.

[Rom 1:21 NKJV] 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

• Then their foolish hearts were darkened … they became more blind.

[Rom 1:24 NKJV] 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

• So God gave them up to uncleanness … God made them even more blind.

[Rom 1:26 NKJV] 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

• God gave them up to vile passions … further blinding the blind even blinder.

[Rom 1:28 NKJV] 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

• God gave them over to a debased mind … they achieved a state of ultimate blindness.

Agreed on the above.

I believe this has to do with the hardening of the heart and not with blindness. One cannot be more blind than blind...not seeing.

However, one's heart can become more calloused with time and ultimately God abandons that person to himself, as you've posted.

Another case of God working against Himself.
Think of it.

God reveals Himself.
Romans 1:19...

We are without excuse...
We are responsible for our response.

God did not predetermined our response.
Thus a free will response.

I set before you life and death...
CHOOSE life.

 

[GodsGrace]

So you say, but the the Free Will alternative raises far greater conflicts.


Do you deny any of this?
Was God not in control from Adam until the time of Noah?
Was that the age when MEN RULED THE UNIVERSE?
Was God sorry He created mankind or not? Is it a poetic device used to make a literary point or was God admitting to having made a mistake and being imperfect? Which is your FREE WILL alternative if you are going to paraody reformed theology by mocking it with satire?


Again, what is YOUR answer. DID God make man the way he was or did God loose control of His creation or did God make a mistake? What is your alternative to our “Yes, God did it on purpose” answer?


Now that you have gotten the mockery out of your system, perhaps you can explain to me your alternative where the actions of an infinite God are directed by the ALL POWERFUL choices of the mortal creatures that He created. How has God lost control and been reduced to being forced to merely react to whatever we decide to do? We have become the CAUSE that controls the actions of GOD … and you claim that is a much better THEOLOGY than a Sovereign GOD exerting absolute control over His creation to bring to fruition His predetermined plan.

I'd like to discuss the free aspect of the above.
Those that believe in free will are not directing God's will at all. This is a belief system created by reformed theology.

God is all powerful, omnipotent, and does not fear giving free will to man. It's a weak God that would have this fear.

God has a big plan and that plan will be achieved within the parameters of man's free will. Man's free will cannot extend to creating or causing the final outcome that God has in mind. God only can achieve that outcome, but using our free will.

Jesus' sacrifice is the perfect example.
After Adam sinned, God made provision for our redemption through the perfect Godman and His sacrifice to buy back mankind from satan.

God used everyone to cause this to come about.
If, instead, God predestinated/decreed all to happen, it was just one big Broadway type play.

Sad indeed for mankind to be part of a play someone wrote. Pawns to be moved here and there as the master wishes.

 

[GodsGrace]

Easy, all are born blind by nature, then God blinds people as a Judgment against sin. When God deals with a sinner He either deals with them in Mercy, or in strict Justice for their sin.

For instance Pharoah as all men are by nature was dead in sin, spiritually blind and deaf, yet God is said to harden his heart , but that doesnt mean pharoahs heart wasnt already spiritually hard towards God. Now that's all i can tell you, if you dont accept it, thats fine, doesnt make it not true.

I know you can't read all my posts, but I agree with the above.

I'll only say regarding the first paragraph...
Yes, God does have mercy on some, where we disagree is that this mercy is based on something,,,,it's based on a condition.
Repentance.

 

[brightfame52]

I know you can't read all my posts, but I agree with the above.

I'll only say regarding the first paragraph...
Yes, God does have mercy on some, where we disagree is that this mercy is based on something,,,,it's based on a condition.
Repentance.

There is nothing to add, we are naturally hard and blind to the things of God, and then God judicially blinds, which means thats it, the person will remain blinded and perish, be damned. The persons here were already blind and deluded but notice what God does 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

None of us by nature receive the Truth and are unbelievers, so some God will have mercy on and grant them repentance to believe the Truth, but then others He judges and sends them a strong delusion confirming them in their blindness and ignorance and damns them !

 

[atpollard]

I set before you life and death...
CHOOSE life.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY ... They chose death, didn't they. The will was not FREE, the WILL was a SLAVE to sin. Tat is what Calvinists have been saying. How long will you deny the evidence? Did Adam choose LIFE? Did Israel choose LIFE? Then what makes you think that YOU can choose LIFE if they couldn't!

Enter ... John 6:44 and God DRAWING or John 10:29 and GOD giving or Romans 9:16 and dependance on GOD to show mercy to whom He chooses.

 

[atpollard]

I'm very serious.
God cannot be pitted against Himself.

I am sereios, too.
It is one thing to say "No your answer is wrong/bad/foolish" ... so then EXPLAIN THE CORRECT ANSWER TO US!
I asked questions based on those same events and your denial of our explanation. Respond to them as you are able. You can't just say "no" and offer no other explanation.

Since you have eliminated our answer that it was "God's will", then did God "loose control" of creation or did God "make a mistake"? (Personally, I find both of those options far more troubling than the thought that God deliberately created the people of Noah's generation so He could destroy them as a demonstration of His power and righteousness and mercy to Noah).

 

[atpollard]

Those that believe in free will are not directing God's will at all. This is a belief system created by reformed theology.

God is all powerful, omnipotent, and does not fear giving free will to man. It's a weak God that would have this fear.

God has a big plan and that plan will be achieved within the parameters of man's free will. Man's free will cannot extend to creating or causing the final outcome that God has in mind. God only can achieve that outcome, but using our free will.

You are misunderstanding CAUSE-EFFECT.

Why did God save YOU and not HITLER?

• A) Because YOU believed the Gospel and HITLER did not.
• B) Because GOD chose to GIVE you Faith (so that you could believe) and God chose to not give Hitler faith (so he could not believe).

If the answer is B, then GOD is 100% the CAUSE of the EFFECT (you were saved, Hitler was not saved).

If A, then YOU are the CAUSE of your salvation and Hitler is the CAUSE of his damnation. Of course, you were still saved by the blood of Jesus that cleansed you from all sin, but that was a SECOND CAUSE since GOD could not forgive you UNTIL you first believed. YOUR BELIEF was the FIRST CAUSE that controlled God's actions (Remember that according to YOU, God wants to save both you and Hitler ... it is MAN's FREE WILL that allows/prevents God from accomplishining His plan of salvation.)

What have I misunderstood about your Free Will and salvation?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Personally, I find both of those options far more troubling than the thought that God deliberately created the people of Noah's generation so He could destroy them as a demonstration of His power and righteousness and mercy to Noah).

The glory of God, not the happiness of the creature, is the true theodicy of sin.

Why did God save YOU and not HITLER?

• A) Because YOU believed the Gospel and HITLER did not.
• B) Because GOD chose to GIVE you Faith (so that you could believe) and God chose to not give Hitler faith (so he could not believe).

if I pick "B" ..
Hmmm,then to some extent I am in control of the All Mighty ...
how can God be ALL MIGHTY if I have partial control Him ...
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine. ... I guess picking "B" means I have an answer to GOD's question ... I would be giving Him my belief for which He is obligated to repay me ... wow, I can obligate God
How can God get all He desires to happen if man’s free will determines events?
For those who believe in ‘eternal security’ and ‘free will’; does ‘eternal security’ nullify ‘free will’ since I not change my mind as to believe/not believe?
How is God glorified by events that are determined by man as the initial cause? ... God says He doesn't share His glory with anyone ... yet it is I who determine whom He will make His son and I could glory in that

*sigh* I've got many, many more issues with option "B" .... maybe I stick with "A", final answer Alex (Trabek)

 

[atpollard]

if I pick "B" ..

... Then you believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is LITERAL and means exactly what it says.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Then you believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is LITERAL and means exactly what it says.

It's a 'no brainer'. Hmmm, not saying I'm a 'no brainer'. .... though I wish scripture was more literal but seeing 1 Cor. 2:14 says we won't understand it unless the Spirit reveals meaning ... I guess it doesn't matter (much...giggle).

I've got 400s of verses directly saying or at least implying salvation is exclusively the work of God alone. They've got 10ish verses usually using ambiguous words (all, everyone, world), the idea God would tell us to do something we could and God has to do some the way they see it or that doesn't fit their definition of God and therefore cannot be so.
Our theology is God centered; theirs is man-centered.

 

[GodsGrace]

 q

So you say, but the the Free Will alternative raises far greater conflicts.

We're discussing Noah here.
God regretted ever having created man because he had become so sinful.
Well then, why did God create man that way?
How could GOD be sorry about something HE did?
This is not biblical at all and if you need verses, I'll post them.

Hebrews 13:8
Malachai 3:6
Numbers 23:19


How is the free will alternative worse?

1. God creates mankind with free will.
2. Mankind does not turn to God willingly/freely.
3. There is evil and sinning in mankind.
4. God decides that mankind should be terminated.

No conflicts.

Do you deny any of this?

The part that I deny is that God decreed all this to happen
and then He had to feel sorry He did it.

Conflict is present.

Was God not in control from Adam until the time of Noah?

God is always in control.
That doesn't mean that He obstructs our free will constantly and at every moment.
It was man's free will to be evil and not in relationship with God.

Was that the age when MEN RULED THE UNIVERSE?

I have no comment. Men never ruled the universe.

Was God sorry He created mankind or not? Is it a poetic device used to make a literary point or was God admitting to having made a mistake and being imperfect? Which is your FREE WILL alternative if you are going to paraody reformed theology by mocking it with satire?

First of all I'm not mocking with satire.
I'm asking serious and legitimate questions.
I'm showing how reformed theology pits God against Himself.
If you don't see it, that's fine.

Poetic device. Of course it's a poetic device. God does not "feel sorry".
This is man using human terms to speak about God.
I gave you the free will alternative up above.
It creates no conflict...God does not do what He would then later "regret".

I'm not addressing anthropomorphism here.

Again, what is YOUR answer. DID God make man the way he was or did God loose control of His creation or did God make a mistake? What is your alternative to our “Yes, God did it on purpose” answer?

My reply is that God gave man free will and man did not use it properly.

Now that you have gotten the mockery out of your system, perhaps you can explain to me your alternative where the actions of an infinite God are directed by the ALL POWERFUL choices of the mortal creatures that He created.

How does man having free will direct instructions to God?

How has God lost control and been reduced to being forced to merely react to whatever we decide to do?

Why do you think God REACTS to what we do as if He didn't know beforehand what we are going to do?

We have become the CAUSE that controls the actions of GOD … and you claim that is a much better THEOLOGY than a Sovereign GOD exerting absolute control over His creation to bring to fruition His predetermined plan.

How are we a CAUSE?
Only God is a cause.
We are certainly not a cause of anything in the way that you mean it.

God will bring fruition to His predetermined plan AND has the power and sovereignty to allow us to have free will with no fear on His side.

It's the Reformed God that is fearful of giving his creatures free will.
This makes Him be a weaker God, not a stronger God.

God has the power to make His plan come to fulfillment - no matter what we choose to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

[Rom 1:18 NKJV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

• They suppress the truth … they are blind.

[Rom 1:21 NKJV] 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

• Then their foolish hearts were darkened … they became more blind.

[Rom 1:24 NKJV] 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

• So God gave them up to uncleanness … God made them even more blind.

[Rom 1:26 NKJV] 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

• God gave them up to vile passions … further blinding the blind even blinder.

[Rom 1:28 NKJV] 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

• God gave them over to a debased mind … they achieved a state of ultimate blindness.

I agree with the above but disagree as to what it is referring.
You say it refers to blindness. I don't believe a person could be more blind than blind.
If a person is born blind, then that is what they are.
We are all born blind. (I do know of children that worship God at the early age of about 3, but that is rare).

I believe the above scripture is referring to the state of the heart.
By heart, of course, we mean the soul.
We read how persons can become hard of heart.
Now the heart CAN change and become darker still.
We're born unaware of God, this is darkness of the heart, the mind.
Verse 28 of Romans 1 speaks about how God gave them over to a debased mind.

Romans 1:24
24So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.

Romans 1:28
28Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done.
29Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.
30They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents.
31They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy.
32They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

I believe it's pretty well established that being born blind and becoming more and more hardened of the heart is easy to see using the above verses.

Why is this important?

If we want to say that someone is born blind,,,then we have to keep to that idea.
They are blind. Period.

If we want to say that someone's heart can become darker and harder, then, yes, we can say this.

Reformed theology teaches that persons are born blind.
And yet scripture states that we BECOME blind, which means we cannot be born blind and which means Romans 1 cannot be used to show that blindness can become worse.

Thus confirming that we BECOME blind.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Easy, all are born blind by nature, then God blinds people as a Judgment against sin. When God deals with a sinner He either deals with them in Mercy, or in strict Justice for their sin.

For instance Pharoah as all men are by nature was dead in sin, spiritually blind and deaf, yet God is said to harden his heart , but that doesnt mean pharoahs heart wasnt already spiritually hard towards God. Now that's all i can tell you, if you dont accept it, thats fine, doesnt make it not true.

I replied to the above in my post no. 336.

We are all born blind to our spiritual self.
But I think what God does is make our heart hard, ONCE we have decided to do this for ourselves.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart,
and God hardened his heart...as in Romans 1:26

1. Pharaoh’s heart “became hard” (7:22)
2. Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (8:15)
3. Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (8:19)
4. “Pharaoh hardened his own heart” (8:32)
5. Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (9:7)
6. “The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (9:12)
7. Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (9:34)
8. God announces that he has “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:1,10:20)
9. God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:27)
10. God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (11:10)

 

[GodsGrace]

There is nothing to add, we are naturally hard and blind to the things of God, and then God judicially blinds, which means thats it, the person will remain blinded and perish, be damned. The persons here were already blind and deluded but notice what God does 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

None of us by nature receive the Truth and are unbelievers, so some God will have mercy on and grant them repentance to believe the Truth, but then others He judges and sends them a strong delusion confirming them in their blindness and ignorance and damns them !

Agreed. We are born blind.

So in 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul is speaking to saved persons. He says OUR LORD, BROTHERS & SISTERS verse 1
He also states that they should not be quickly shaken by hearing that the coming of the Lord is near. Verse 2
Paul talks of the coming of the lawless one at some time in the future.
The lawless one will come with power and signs and miracles - but counterfeit.
He will fool the unsaved on their way to destruction because they REFUSE TO LOVE AND ACCEPT THE TRUTH. Verse 10

God will cause them to be greatly deceived and they will believe the lies of the lawless one. Verse 11

So, why would God cause them to be deceived? They're already lost.


Also, verse 12 tells us why they will be condemned:
Because they enjoyed evil rather than believing the truth.


I wonder if atpollard and Fastfredy0 would care to address the sentence in blue.

 

[brightfame52]

I replied to the above in my post no. 336.

We are all born blind to our spiritual self.
But I think what God does is make our heart hard, ONCE we have decided to do this for ourselves.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart,
and God hardened his heart...as in Romans 1:26

1. Pharaoh’s heart “became hard” (7:22)
2. Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (8:15)
3. Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (8:19)
4. “Pharaoh hardened his own heart” (8:32)
5. Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (9:7)
6. “The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (9:12)
7. Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (9:34)
8. God announces that he has “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:1,10:20)
9. God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:27)
10. God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (11:10)

Okay so you replied, thats your right ! Doesnt change a thing I have stated.

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

God has the power to make His plan come to fulfillment - no matter what we choose to do.

Right because everything we choose to do whether good or evil God purposed it, mans will is never free from Gods purpose, which He purposed in Himself. All things act, react, according to His purpose and will Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

within the scope of all things is the heart and will of men. Even the bad sinful choices we make, and are accountable for, were from the working after the counsel of His will.