2 evidences that water baptism doesn't save anyone

[smaller]

He DID say that in order to be born again, one must be born OF WATER and of the Spirit. The first "born" refers to physical birth. The second "born" refers to regeneration, which is baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Brilliant deduction. You're probably the only poster I've run across here in the entire time I've posted that sees the above.

John 3:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

The "order" of delivery from God in Christ is "first the natural, then the spiritual." Exemplified many times, the above in particular.

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

This "order" was shown in both of the citings from John 3, above.

 

[Webb]

Yes, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a work of God.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Water baptism, which is a ritual, is a work of man. It requires a person to immerse another person.

According to Colossians its a work of God

 

[Jim Parker]

I said this:
"Just one question for you.
Do you claim that one is saved by being immersed in water?"
How is this a word trap? It is a very straight forward question. It seems you'd just rather not commit yourself to an answer.

It's a word trap because it is phrased to elicit a "yes" or "no" answer.
I have already posted my opinion. Why do you ask the same thing again?

Every single command, or what? Be specific. What commands must be obeyed in order to be saved. I'm sure there are verses if that is true.

And I have posted those verses more than once as well.

Did He say for salvation?

Does Jesus need to explain to you why He told you to get baptized in water or are willing to just obey him because he's God and you're not.

He's mine as well.

Then do as He tells you.

So do I. And we both know that "doing our best" is never enough because salvation is by grace through faith. Not by doing our best. Also consider that doing ones' best will vary between every individual, so how can that be any requirement for salvation?

Jesus is aware of each person's abilities and struggles and He knows everyone's heart. I trust that He is able to sort it all out.

All believers should to that. But not to be saved.

If you refuse then you are not saved.

No, He did NOT say that one needs to be born again of baptism in water. You're just adding words to fit your theology.

It is what the church has always taught. You can make up your own stuff if you like.

He DID say that in order to be born again, one must be born OF WATER and of the Spirit. The first "born" refers to physical birth. The second "born" refers to regeneration, which is baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The physical birth is the first birth. We were buried with Jesus by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (Ro 6:3)
That refers to Jesus' physical death (the end of his first physical life) and resurrection(the beginning of His new, physical, eternal life.)
In baptism we are sacramentally (mystically) joined to Christ so that our first physical body dies and is buried and we are raised again with a body that has been freed from sin, the cause of death. That is being born again of water. That's what the Church has always taught from the time of the apostles but you don't have to believe it. You can make up your own stuff or buy into your denominational tradition. Suit yourself.

But you don't understand what He says.

Sez you

Those who believe today that one must be immersed in water to be saved is comparable to the very early church's view by the Pharisees that one must be circumcized to be saved.

God commanded the descendants of Abraham to be circumcised and He commanded the believers in Christ to be water baptized. You do what you want. Do what Jesus tells you or do your own thing. Don't explain yourself to me. Just be ready to explain yourself to Jesus.

Acts 15:5 - Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”

Right. That's another topic. We're not taking about the Law of Moses and Christian baptism is not found there.

Don't forget your part is also to understand what He commands.

I understand that Jesus commanded water baptism. (Which is what the book of Acts tells us that Philip, Peter, and Paul understood.)

No, I always try to do as He likes.

That's nice
[/QUOTE] I believe in the Lord.[/QUOTE] That's nice too.
This is really getting boring.
I'll do what Jesus said. You do what you like. OK?
Bye!

 

[Jim Parker]

Brilliant deduction. You're probably the only poster I've run across here in the entire time I've posted that sees the above.

John 3:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

The "order" of delivery from God in Christ is "first the natural, then the spiritual." Exemplified many times, the above in particular.

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

This "order" was shown in both of the citings from John 3, above.

Jesus was explaining how must can be "born again."
It requires BOTH new birth through water and new birth through Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Is talking about the resurrection of the dead. In Ro 6:3-5, Paul says that we are baptized into Jesus' death in order to be united to Him in resurrection to eternal life.
Being born again in baptism and in Spirit is what the church has taught since the beginning.
I don't understand this felt need to refute the teaching of the apostles.

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”​

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; ...

 

[FreeGrace]

Nobody said that "one mut obey Him as Lord before His blood saves." Jesus' death and resurrection (His "blood") has already saved all of mankind from the grave. It is a "done deal."

Thank you. So, don't add "must obey Him" as a requirement for salvation.

All of mankind will be saved from death and resurrected from the grave immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:51-53)

Correct.

 

[FreeGrace]

According to Colossians its a work of God

Water baptism? What verse suggests that?

 

[Webb]

Water baptism? What verse suggests that?

Col.2:12

 

[FreeGrace]

It's a word trap because it is phrased to elicit a "yes" or "no" answer.

Why would answering a simple yes or no question be such a bother? How does truth get trapped by answering truthfully?

I have already posted my opinion. Why do you ask the same thing again?

I wanted clarity.

Does Jesus need to explain to you why He told you to get baptized in water or are willing to just obey him because he's God and you're not.

The Bible is clear as to why we should get baptized and obey Jesus.

Then do as He tells you.

I have.

If you refuse then you are not saved.

Once again you've added being obedient to be saved, when the Bible is clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not obedience to commands.

It is what the church has always taught. You can make up your own stuff if you like.

You're the one who added words that the Bible doesn't. But go ahead and make up your own stuff.

 

[smaller]

Jesus was explaining how must can be "born again."
It requires BOTH new birth through water and new birth through Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Is talking about the resurrection of the dead. In Ro 6:3-5, Paul says that we are baptized into Jesus' death in order to be united to Him in resurrection to eternal life.
Being born again in baptism and in Spirit is what the church has taught since the beginning.
I don't understand this felt need to refute the teaching of the apostles.

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”​

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; ...

I think Paul was right. It didn't take long for works salvation and legalism to creep into the churches.

Acts 20:
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

 

[WIP]

Brilliant deduction. You're probably the only poster I've run across here in the entire time I've posted that sees the above.

John 3:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

The "order" of delivery from God in Christ is "first the natural, then the spiritual." Exemplified many times, the above in particular.

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

This "order" was shown in both of the citings from John 3, above.

This question goes out to both you and FreeGrace. Where in Scripture is it explained that Jesus was speaking about natural birth with regard to "born of water" and not water baptism?

 

[WIP]

Please...there are a lot of responses that are just that, responses with no substance. Please provide substance to show the reason for your disagreements rather than just stating that that you disagree. 1 Peter 3:15 NKJV instructs us to "be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear."

 

[smaller]

This question goes out to both you and FreeGrace. Where in Scripture is it explained that Jesus was speaking about natural birth with regard to "born of water" and not water baptism?

You cited the scriptures in your reply. John 3: vs. 5 & 12

Jesus was speaking of an earthly birth.

Correlated to 1 Cor. 15:43-49, vs 46 in particular.

And for the record, I am not opposed to water baptism EXCEPT if it's done as a law to gain salvation and even moreso coupled with the penalty of possible eternal damnation for not doing so, as that is a CLEAR violation of many scriptures such as:

John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

John 4:2
(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Cor. 1:
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

IN christian divisions, there is no such thing as "ONE" baptism. Every sect plays a different drum of doctrines, dogma and PENALTIES for not doing so according to their SECT's fine print. That is NOT anything resembling the above.

Galatians 3:
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Jim Parker]

I think Paul was right. It didn't take long for works salvation and legalism to creep into the churches.

"Legalism" is the teaching that, to be saved, one must keep the Law of Moses. That is what Paul rebuked the Galatian church for; adding the Law of Moses and circumcision to grace.

That has nothing to do with doing good works.

We were "created in Christ Jesus to do good works". Doing "the good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:10 RSV) is NOT "Legalism." It is doing what God created us to do.
The opposite of doing "the good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" is rejecting Jesus' Lordship and living in sin.

At Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus very clearly stated that He would judge mankind according to whether they did or did not do "good works." He listed the works he expects people of faith to do. They are: Give water to the thirsty and food to the hungry; clothe the naked, give shelter and hospitality to the stranger, minister to the sick and visit the prisoners.

Jesus also very clearly stated at John 5:28-29 (NKJV)"... the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Paul, by revelation from Jesus Christ, said the same thing at Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) "(God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Does it get any clearer than that?

When you teach against the necessity to do good works you refute the explicit words of Jesus.

So when you teach people, contrary to Jesus' word, that they don't have to do any good works to be saved because "that's legalism", you prepare them to hear Jesus say to them when He returns: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me."

Also consider:

Eze 3:18 (RSV) If I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Eze 33:8(RSV) If I say to the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

Sela

 

[JLB]

It requires BOTH new birth through water and new birth through Spirit.

No such thing as new birth through water.

Born of water is a reference to natural child birth.
Born again is the new birth, of you spirit.

I do however agree with you that Jesus said... those who believe and are Baptized, shall be saved. Mark 16:16

I also agree with you that we need to obey the Gospel to be saved. Romans 10:9-10


JLB

 

[smaller]

"Legalism" is the teaching that, to be saved, one must keep the Law of Moses. That is what Paul rebuked the Galatian church for; adding the Law of Moses and circumcision to grace.

Tell me if your sect says if a person doesn't get baptised in water, according to every dictate of fine print of your sect, they can not be in your sect, AND any such who believe by/in faith in Christ as their Savior are potentially damned to hell?

Then tell me how many other sects have a similar setup. Then tell me if ANY of them are identical?

That has nothing to do with doing good works.

There are vast numbers of christian sects that have taken N.T. doctrines/principles and TURNED them on their heads into legalism with penalties attached. Not one bit different than O.T. LAW with thousands of different New Testament TWISTs and a side of potential eternal fire.

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I think any poster here who has followed your posts knows you are of a sect of works salvation adherents.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[smaller]

Who wants to discuss the BAPTISM of the people of Israel when passing through the sea, UNWET, and through the CLOUD?

1 Corinthians 10
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

No such thing as new birth through water.
Born of water is a reference to natural child birth.

We disagree.

Born again is the new birth, of you spirit.

We disagree.
[/QUOTE]I do however agree with you that Jesus said... those who believe and are Baptized, shall be saved. Mark 16:16
I also agree with you that we need to obey the Gospel to be saved. Romans 10:9-10
JLB[/QUOTE]
:shock !!!!

Imagine that! Common ground!! :biggrin

 

[smaller]

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Who wants to discuss the BAPTISM of the people of Israel when passing through the sea, UNWET, and through the CLOUD?

1 Corinthians 10
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Read the whole chapter.

 

[smaller]

Read the whole chapter.

I have. Countless times.

32 Give none offence,

I don't care if your sect wants to practice works salvation or any number of other pseudo laws to be saved because I think you'll be saved by Grace through faith in Christ, regardless. What I would NOT do is practice potential eternal condemnation toward ALL believers who are not in your sect, which is an affront to both faith in Christ and to any ordinary believers good heart and conscience.