2 evidences that water baptism doesn't save anyone

[FreeGrace]

Better if you talk of what is in the bible and not outside the bible. Don't want to accept anything outside the bible. I don't want to comment on anything of What Jesus commanded to His bride.

This is sad. Because a simple search on 'baptism in the OT' will provide a wealth of information on the concept of baptism IN the OT. That Jews did understand and practice it.

Read Romans 6:4, that's what the purpose of baptism.

I've asked if you are aware of 'wet' and 'dry' baptisms, and you have ignored the question. There is no use in discussing the "purpose" of baptism until I know that you are aware of the different types of baptism and what each one means.

Now you guys do you also say that breaking of bread is not necessary for salvation. When you say that if these things don't save you then your ultimate goal is to omit them.

Why do you assume such things? On what basis? You have no idea at all what anyone's "ultimate goal" is here.

So please don't act as though you do, because you don't.

You say worship doesn't save so result omit worship

Nope. I say worship because God is WORTHY of our worship. So does the Bible.

You say bible reading doesn't save you so the result is stop bible reading

Nope. I say study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman not ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. So says the Bible.

You say prayer doesn't save you so the result is stop praying

Nope. I say to pray in the Spirit (Eph 6:18, Jude 20). So does the Bible.

You say fellowship doesn't save you so the result is stop going to a fellowship

Nope. I say that we MUST be in fellowship, otherwise we are grieving (Eph 5:18) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.

As you can see, you are quite wrong in your opinions.

 

[chozen1956]

Baptism is the outward expression of the crucifying of the sinful nature.

 

[Sinthesis]

There are 2 Scriptural passages that are about baptism but in fact people were saved by staying dry, rather than by immersion.

1 Peter 3:20-21 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ NASB

First, let's notice that Peter said that Noah plus the 7 were brought "safely through the water". He didn't say "by the water". Then, in the next breath, he says "baptism now saves you". Hm. He clarifies what he meant by the next phrase: "not the removala of dirt from the flesh". This is a reference to applying water to the body to remove dirt. So Peter was not referring to water baptism here as to what saves us. In fact, he corresponds baptism with the saving of the 8 "through the water". Obviously none of the 8 were immersed in the flood.

But…the rest of mankind DID get immersed in the flood. They were certainly water baptized, and died as a result. They were not saved by the water; they were killed by the water.

So, Peter is referring to what John the baptist said in Mark 1:8 (and Lk 3:16); “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” NASB

This is a reference to regeneration, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit when a person believes in Christ. This baptism is an identification of the believer with Christ, and is referred to as a seal in Eph 1:13 for the day of redemption in Eph 4:30. This is a dry baptism.

Second, Paul wrote that the Exodus generation was "baptized into Moses" in 1 Cor 10:2 - and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea NASB

However, we know that they passed "dry shod" through the Red Sea, per Ex 14:16 - “As for you, lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel shall go through the midst of the sea on dry land. NASB

And, who did get "immersed" in the Red Sea? The Egyptian army. All of them. They were not saved by immersion. They were killed by immersion.

So, what was this "baptism into Moses" that Paul wrote about in 1 Cor 10? It was an identification of the people of Israel with Moses. They went through dry, yet it was called a baptism. They Egyptian army got immersed and were destroyed.

These 2 passages demonstrate that water immersion isn't what saves. In fact, in these 2 passages, it is what kills, not saves.

The baptism that saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who regenerates us, gives us eternal life, and seals believers for the day of redemption.

Don't be confused by the mechanics of baptism, what is important is the symbolism. Nobody is saved by immersion, because immersion is only half of baptism, for you have to be brought back up that you can live your new life. That is what baptism symbolizes: death to the old life, on to the new life. While Noah and the Israelites may have stayed 'dry' compared to the Nephilim and Egyptians, they were symbolicly as good as wet/dead, but the difference was they were brought through. The same for Baby Moses in the basket, Jonah in the fish, Naaman in the Jordan, not to mention the 'dry' baptisms of Isaac on the altar, Joseph in the pit, Daniel in the lions den, three Israelites in Nebuchadnezzar's fire, even Nebuchadnezzar's madness, and of course Jesus' crucifixion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Don't be confused by the mechanics of baptism, what is important is the symbolism.

I don't agree. There are symbolic baptisms, which involve immersion in water, and there are real baptisms, which are bone dry. Such as I noted in the OP.

Nobody is saved by immersion, because immersion is only half of baptism, for you have to be brought back up that you can live your new life.

Half right. No one is saved by immersion, because it is symbolic only. We are saved by grace through faith.

That is what baptism symbolizes: death to the old life, on to the new life. While Noah and the Israelites may have stayed 'dry' compared to the Nephilim and Egyptians, they were symbolicly as good as wet/dead, but the difference was they were brought through.

No, the real (dry) baptisms are all about identification. The Exodus generation were identified with Moses when they went through the Red Sea dry shod. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is identification with Jesus Christ, as the Holy Spirit places believers in union with Christ. Eph 1:13.

The same for Baby Moses in the basket, Jonah in the fish, Naaman in the Jordan, not to mention the 'dry' baptisms of Isaac on the altar, Joseph in the pit, Daniel in the lions den, three Israelites in Nebuchadnezzar's fire, even Nebuchadnezzar's madness, and of course Jesus' crucifixion.

Except none of these are referred to as baptisms. Moses wasn't baptised "in the basket", neither was Jonah baptized in the fish. Etc.

 

[Seabass]

There are 2 Scriptural passages that are about baptism but in fact people were saved by staying dry, rather than by immersion.

1 Peter 3:20-21 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ NASB

First, let's notice that Peter said that Noah plus the 7 were brought "safely through the water". He didn't say "by the water". Then, in the next breath, he says "baptism now saves you". Hm. He clarifies what he meant by the next phrase: "not the removala of dirt from the flesh". This is a reference to applying water to the body to remove dirt. So Peter was not referring to water baptism here as to what saves us. In fact, he corresponds baptism with the saving of the 8 "through the water". Obviously none of the 8 were immersed in the flood.

But…the rest of mankind DID get immersed in the flood. They were certainly water baptized, and died as a result. They were not saved by the water; they were killed by the water.

So, Peter is referring to what John the baptist said in Mark 1:8 (and Lk 3:16); “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” NASB

This is a reference to regeneration, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit when a person believes in Christ. This baptism is an identification of the believer with Christ, and is referred to as a seal in Eph 1:13 for the day of redemption in Eph 4:30. This is a dry baptism.

1 Pet 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

"through water"
"by water"

Whether the word "by" or "through" is used does not matter for they both carry the same idea. What is important is the MEANS by which those 8 souls were saved and that means was WATER. Peter makes 'saved by water' the OT type. In the NT, God has also chosen WATER as the means to save/remit sin:

OT type:----------saved by water
NT antitype:-----saved by water

Peter is therefore talking about literal water baptism. This is further proven by Peter saying water baptism is not for removing dirt from the flesh. One baths with literal water to remove dirt from the flesh. In Tts 3:5 and Eph 5:26 Paul uses the word loutron for "washing". Loutron refers to a laver of water. A laver of water, a baptistery refers to the water into which one is literally baptized.

Second, Paul wrote that the Exodus generation was "baptized into Moses" in 1 Cor 10:2 - and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea NASB

However, we know that they passed "dry shod" through the Red Sea, per Ex 14:16 - “As for you, lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel shall go through the midst of the sea on dry land. NASB

And, who did get "immersed" in the Red Sea? The Egyptian army. All of them. They were not saved by immersion. They were killed by immersion.

So, what was this "baptism into Moses" that Paul wrote about in 1 Cor 10? It was an identification of the people of Israel with Moses. They went through dry, yet it was called a baptism. They Egyptian army got immersed and were destroyed.

These 2 passages demonstrate that water immersion isn't what saves. In fact, in these 2 passages, it is what kills, not saves.

The baptism that saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who regenerates us, gives us eternal life, and seals believers for the day of redemption.

The baptism of Moses is not the "one baptism" of Eph 4:5 that is in effect in this present Christian dispensation. Christ's baptism of the great commission, that had human administrators that literal immersed people in water, as Phillip immersed the eunuch (Acts 8).

The context of 1 Cor 10, Paul is not discussing how water baptism saves/remits sins but is using Israel as an example to warn the Corinthians. Those Corinthians were involved in various kinds of errors and Paul was using examples from the OT to warn the Corinthians they could fall also (v12). The Israelites were not "baptized" to save their souls but "baptized" to save their physical lives from the pursuing Egyptian army. They were literally "baptized" - under a cloud and surrounded by water to save their lives. They were also figuratively baptized into Moses meaning they were going to follow Moses as their leader. The Israelites had no such thing as water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, but the Red Sea crossing and the flood are foreshadowing Christ's water baptism.

It can also be noted that even though the Israelites went through a baptism, multitudes ended up dying in the wilderness on the other side (1 Cor 10:5,6). Likewise, just because one has been water baptized into Christ is no guarantee he can never fall (1 Cor 10:12) himself losing God's favor where He no longer is pleased (1 Cor 10:5).

 

[JLB]

This is sad. Because a simple search on 'baptism in the OT' will provide a wealth of information on the concept of baptism IN the OT. That Jews did understand and practice it.

The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”



JLB

 

[JLB]

1 Pet 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

"through water"
"by water"

Whether the word "by" or "through" is used does not matter for they both carry the same idea. What is important is the MEANS by which those 8 souls were saved and that means was WATER. Peter makes 'saved by water' the OT type. In the NT, God has also chosen WATER as the means to save/remit sin:

OT type:----------saved by water
NT antitype:-----saved by water

Peter is therefore talking about literal water baptism. This is further proven by Peter saying water baptism is not for removing dirt from the flesh. One baths with literal water to remove dirt from the flesh. In Tts 3:5 and Eph 5:26 Paul uses the word loutron for "washing". Loutron refers to a laver of water. A laver of water, a baptistery refers to the water into which one is literally baptized.

Amen.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Read Romans 6:4, that's what the purpose of baptism. Now you guys do you also say that breaking of bread is not necessary for salvation. When you say that if these things don't save you then your ultimate goal is to omit them.

You say worship doesn't save so result omit worship
You say bible reading doesn't save you so the result is stop bible reading
You say prayer doesn't save you so the result is stop praying
You say fellowship doesn't save you so the result is stop going to a fellowship

Why take such an extreme position? No one would agree with this. It is true that these things here don't save, but that doesn't mean don't do them.

And the OP did not say that water baptism shouldn't be done.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 Pet 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

"through water"
"by water"

Whether the word "by" or "through" is used does not matter for they both carry the same idea.

Actually, not. The phrase "by water" means "by the means OF water". But "through water" means just the opposite; We are saved, not BY water, but THROUGH water.

If they mean the same thing, then we are saved BY water. But that is not what Peter was saying.

In fact, just consider the previous verse, which proves that he was teaching that they were saved by being OUT of the water, in the ark.

v.20 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

This is clear. They were brought SAFELY THROUGH the water. They stayed dry. If water saves, it would have been all the humans who drowned that would have been saved. Because they were the ones who were immersed IN the water.

But, in fact, they died BY water. They were not saved, in any sense.

What is important is the MEANS by which those 8 souls were saved and that means was WATER.

But 1 Pet 3:20 tells us that Noah plus 7 were saved by staying OUT of the water. They were actually physically saved by the ark, which kept them OUT of the water.

Peter is therefore talking about literal water baptism.

His point in v.21 is that it ISN'T physical water that saves. The water that "puts away the filth of the flesh" doesn't save at all. That's exactly what Peter said in v.21. "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but anappeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection ofJesus Christ,"

The bolded phrase shows that he wasn't talking about water, which does remove dirt from the flesh. He was talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which John the Baptist made note of about Jesus.

“I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Mark 1:8

This is further proven by Peter saying water baptism is not for removing dirt from the flesh.

His point is very clear. We are NOT saved by water baptism - "not the removal of dirt from the flesh".

One baths with literal water to remove dirt from the flesh.

Exactly! And that kind of immersion does not save. That's Peter's message.[/QUOTE]

 

[smaller]

Why take such an extreme position? No one would agree with this. It is true that these things here don't save, but that doesn't mean don't do them.

And the OP did not say that water baptism shouldn't be done.

I always thought it was interesting that there were Jewish believers who said you HAD to be circumcised to be saved. Others said that and keeping the law. And the Apostles rejected those sights. Acts 15.

Then in Acts 16, Paul has Timothy circumcised anyway.

Go figure.

 

[Malachi]

Then in Acts 16, Paul has Timothy circumcised anyway.

This was not contradictory at all. Paul had an excellent reason for doing this. There were times when Paul followed the Old Covenant in order to maintain fellowship with his Jewish brethren in Jerusalem. "To the Jew I became a Jew".

Back to the topic, water baptism does not save anyone but it does provide evidence that someone has been saved by grace through faith.

 

[smaller]

This was not contradictory at all. Paul had an excellent reason for doing this. There were times when Paul followed the Old Covenant in order to maintain fellowship with his Jewish brethren in Jerusalem. "To the Jew I became a Jew".

Didn't say it was a contradiction. I mentioned in as a similar sight to Freegrace in saying The Gospel is not against baptism, but it is not mandatory to salvation. Similar principle. Let's face a fact. How are christians any different with baptism than legalist Jews are with circumcision. Sometimes people do things just to get along with the crowd.

Back to the topic, water baptism does not save anyone

Agree.

but it does provide evidence that someone has been saved by grace through faith.

So does a confession of faith in Christ for salvation.

 

[Malachi]

So does a confession of faith in Christ for salvation.

So are you suggesting that water baptism is no longer a command of Christ for those who confess their faith? That would be contrary to Scripture.

 

[smaller]

So are you suggesting that water baptism is no longer a command of Christ for those who confess their faith? That would be contrary to Scripture.

Do I think believers who don't are under an automatic eternal damnation sentence if they don't?

Uh, no.

There is only ONE baptism. And it happened here:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Believers who practice baptism "like a law" with "condemnation" and "eternal penalty potential" have turned a Spiritual matter into another law, as believers are apt to do with many forms of doctrines.

Water baptism, taught and practiced in truth, will not be performed under condemnations or threats with penalties, which is no different than any other law. Such take a Spiritual principle and turn it into a law of their own making with attending penalties of condemnation, which Jesus prohibits doing.

 

[smaller]

What spiritual water is:

Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

You can tell a common legalist by their uses of baptism as a form of potential condemnation to those who have been DIPPED in Word Water by faith in Christ, and as such these can not be condemned. The legalist will make the opposing sight, seeking condemnation for non-performance.

These various forms of condemnation and legalistic works salvation practices are what have ripped apart the various congregations. In many cases severing them from each others. "My law says this." "My law says that."

And on and on it goes. It really is a works salvation sickness. Most of it inherited by the early practitioners of condemnation in the churches that Paul warned would come in Acts 20.

We were bought with a price that can not be paid by works.

 

[Jim Parker]

There are 2 Scriptural passages that are about baptism but in fact people were saved by staying dry, rather than by immersion.

1 Peter 3:20-21 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ NASB

First, let's notice that Peter said that Noah plus the 7 were brought "safely through the water". He didn't say "by the water". Then, in the next breath, he says "baptism now saves you". Hm. He clarifies what he meant by the next phrase: "not the removala of dirt from the flesh". This is a reference to applying water to the body to remove dirt. So Peter was not referring to water baptism here as to what saves us. In fact, he corresponds baptism with the saving of the 8 "through the water". Obviously none of the 8 were immersed in the flood.

But…the rest of mankind DID get immersed in the flood. They were certainly water baptized, and died as a result. They were not saved by the water; they were killed by the water.

So, Peter is referring to what John the baptist said in Mark 1:8 (and Lk 3:16); “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” NASB

This is a reference to regeneration, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit when a person believes in Christ. This baptism is an identification of the believer with Christ, and is referred to as a seal in Eph 1:13 for the day of redemption in Eph 4:30. This is a dry baptism.

Second, Paul wrote that the Exodus generation was "baptized into Moses" in 1 Cor 10:2 - and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea NASB

However, we know that they passed "dry shod" through the Red Sea, per Ex 14:16 - “As for you, lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel shall go through the midst of the sea on dry land. NASB

And, who did get "immersed" in the Red Sea? The Egyptian army. All of them. They were not saved by immersion. They were killed by immersion.

So, what was this "baptism into Moses" that Paul wrote about in 1 Cor 10? It was an identification of the people of Israel with Moses. They went through dry, yet it was called a baptism. They Egyptian army got immersed and were destroyed.

These 2 passages demonstrate that water immersion isn't what saves. In fact, in these 2 passages, it is what kills, not saves.

The baptism that saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who regenerates us, gives us eternal life, and seals believers for the day of redemption.

Is Jesus your Lord? Yes? Good! Then obey your Lord and get baptized IN WATER.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is Jesus your Lord? Yes? Good! Then obey your Lord and get baptized IN WATER.

Correct. Water baptism is for obedience, not for salvation!

 

[Webb]

Not according to Jesus!

 

[smaller]

Not according to Jesus!

If there is an "or else" attached, i.e. to avoid eternal condemnation, then it's just another "law" to earn salvation. Works salvation by any other name, i.e. obedience or else, is still works salvation.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[JLB]

This is clear. They were brought SAFELY THROUGH the water. They stayed dry. If water saves, it would have been all the humans who drowned that would have been saved. Because they were the ones who were immersed IN the water.

But, in fact, they died BY water. They were not saved, in any sense.

The message is that they had already died and were "in Christ", [The Ark] and were saved from God's judgement. The Ark being a type of Christ.

Christ is the One who actually went down and was raised again, and be "in Him" is what saves us.

We were Baptized in the "likeness" of His death, and the likeness of His resurrection, "IF" we obey His command to be Baptized.

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Romans 6:3

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:5

It's the obedience of faith, the doing of what God says, that activates and makes your faith alive and able to function and produce what it was intended to produce; ie a divine result.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

These also did not "get wet", as you say, but remained dry.

It was the Egyptians that "got wet" and drowned, thereby suffering the Judgement of God.


If the children of Israel would have "disobeyed" the Baptism in water [sea] as you teach, then they would have perished at the hands of the enemy.




JLB