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2 evidences that water baptism doesn't save anyone

Jn.3:5. "---except a man be born of water--".


Yes, this refers to natural birth.

For a man must first be born, in order to be born again.

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6

  • Born of water refers to natural birth, ie; being born of flesh. Born
  • Born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth, ie; being born of the Spirit. Born again

Water Baptism has nothing at all with being born again.


JLB
 
Yes, "It is only the rules of man that have changed it---". Please produce the term "ceremonial baptism" in the scripture.
 
so the important is not the water by means of which we anyway wash our bodies regularly, but the righteousness/faithfulness, or what will the benefit of the ceremonial water baptism be if the baptized worshiper remains unrighteous and perseveres in wrongdoing to the end?!, the "water" of God is the invisible substance, with which He made the universal creation/creature, as well as the universal creation/creature itself in its normal condition, which is the pure one, so the important for us is to be spiritually cleansed and pure
Thank you for that response.
However, it does not contain a definition of the term "ceremonial baptism."

A couple of thoughts. God did not use any substance at all to make creation. He created from nothing. There was no substance which was co-eternal with God as some of the ancient Greek Philosophers taught based on the idea that creation and "the One" were of the same substance.

Baptism is not about being spiritually cleansed, as the Law of Moses required, but, rather, the entrance into and participation in Christ's death and resurrection.

iakov the fool.
 
Baptism is not about being spiritually cleansed, as the Law of Moses required, but, rather, the entrance into and participation in Christ's death and resurrection.
For clarity, can you provide the Scripture to support this? Thanks.
 
For clarity, can you provide the Scripture to support this? Thanks.
Once again:
Romans 6:3-5 (RSV) Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
 
Jn.3:5. "---except a man be born of water--".

Webb - this isn't necessarily for you in particular, but those who hang onto literal water.

John 7:38-39 "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water flow from him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The water is in reference to the life giving Spirit flowing from us now as believers.
 
Webb - this isn't necessarily for you in particular, but those who hang onto literal water.

John 7:38-39 "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water flow from him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The water is in reference to the life giving Spirit flowing from us now as believers.
Do you have reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2?
 
Do you have reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2?

Here is the progression of context, as recalled from what Jesus commanded them.

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father,“which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” ... When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance... 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 1:4-5, 2:1-4,33



JLB
 
Here is the progression of context, as recalled from what Jesus commanded them.

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father,“which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” ... When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance... 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 1:4-5, 2:1-4,33

Sorry JLB, I was asking Lovethroughdove the question. His post was addressed to me.

JLB
 
This question of Spirit baptism or Spirit/actual water baptism can be reverse engineered to see what it didn't do, and in the process, prove that the baptism can only be of and by the Spirit, "in the spirit" apart from actual water.

We can observe Paul's post salvation state or John's post salvation state or Peter's post salvation state and observe the following facts.

Paul still had lusts in mind. Romans 7:7-13. Paul still had sin indwelling his flesh. Romans 7:17-20. Paul still had evil present with him. Romans 7:21. Paul had flesh that was contrary to and against the spirit. Gal. 4:14, Gal. 5:17. Paul stated "I am" the chief of sinners, after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

John said that if we say we "have," present tense, NO SIN we are not even in truth and are deceiving ourselves. 1 John 1:8.

Peter was called out for being a phony legalist hypocrite in Gal. 2:11-12

We might observe in all of this that the flesh condition of all of these Apostles retained the very problems we desire to be eventually saved from in our vile flesh. Phil. 3:21, when we are changed by the Power of Christ, Alone.

What the baptism of the Spirit produces is, at a minimum, HONESTY.

The baptism of physical water can not make a person honest. Only the Spirit of Christ in them can do that.

There are a whole lot of liars that still come up out of physical water baptism. Still not able to speak the truth of the condition of the flesh and it's contrariness to the Spirit and against the Spirit condition.

Only the Spirit of TRUTH in a man can bring a man INTO Truth. Physical water does NOT have the means or the capability to do so, nor can any other man make it so for another.
 
What the baptism of the Spirit produces is, at a minimum, HONESTY.

The baptism of physical water can not make a person honest. Only the Spirit of Christ in them can do that.

There are a whole lot of liars that still come up out of physical water baptism. Still not able to speak the truth of the condition of the flesh and it's contrariness to the Spirit and against the Spirit condition.

Only the Spirit of TRUTH in a man can bring a man INTO Truth. Physical water does NOT have the means or the capability to do so, nor can any other man make it so for another.
A glaring biblical example of this is Simon the sorcerer. The Bible tells us that he himself 'believed and was baptized', yet we know what he wanted to do.
 
A glaring biblical example of this is Simon the sorcerer. The Bible tells us that he himself 'believed and was baptized', yet we know what he wanted to do.
Glaring for sure. I might still divide the man on two sights. One, that he believed, and that his flesh conditions and the adverse influences therein remained. Just like everyone else.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also:

I might observe in this, that belief for Simon was sufficient, but not sufficient to extend sight to the flesh eyes, actions or conditions of the flesh. Just as it is with everyone.

People who are saved by belief do NOT come into everything of God, instantly. There are courses of growth that God in Christ Himself is directly in charge of.
 
Do you have reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2?
NIV - References to baptism in the Holy Spirit. (Jesus is the Baptizer.)
Mat 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mar 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Luk 3:16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Jhn 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

Act 1:4-5 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Act 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tonguesfn as the Spirit enabled them.

Note: Baptize(d) "with" may also be translated baptize(d) "in".
 
Thank you for that response.
However, it does not contain a definition of the term "ceremonial baptism."

it may not exist literally as an expression in the Bible, but it exists as a concept(ion) there by words such as "circumcision", "shadow", "meat", even "baptism", etc.

A couple of thoughts. God did not use any substance at all to make creation. He created from nothing. There was no substance which was co-eternal with God as some of the ancient Greek Philosophers taught based on the idea that creation and "the One" were of the same substance.

how is it possible that there be something from nothing?!, mind when you read the Bible and take more time over its interpretation:

Genesis 1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

so the first things that God created were the "heaven" and the "earth", while the "darkness" and the "waters" as well as the "face of the deep"(which implies there was a whole universe) were there without having been created by Him

Baptism is not about being spiritually cleansed, as the Law of Moses required, but, rather, the entrance into and participation in Christ's death and resurrection.

iakov the fool.

1 Peter 3:20-21 "the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)"

1 John 3:1-3 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

so the water baptism is for repentance, and repentance means first of all to cleanse your faith of (the) misbeliefs/heresies

Blessings
 
how is it possible that there be something from nothing?!, mind when you read the Bible and take more time over its interpretation:
It is impossible for man. It is not impossible for God.
God is the cause (logos) of all being. (all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3 RSV)

Genesis 1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

so the first things that God created were the "heaven" and the "earth", while the "darkness" and the "waters" as well as the "face of the deep" (which implies there was a whole universe) were there without having been created by Him
That is incorrect. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void;"
That says God created the "formless and void" heavens and earth. They were not already "there."

It is illogical that the universe would be eternal as is God. Everything the exists in the physical universe is the result of a previous cause. The ultimate cause of the existence of the physical universe is the Logos. (John 1;3)

"and darkness was upon the face of the deep."
The word "deep" refers to waters which were a symbol for chaos in the ancient middle eastern literature.

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
The word translated "moved upon" (רָחַף עַל `rachaph 'al) conveys the image of a hen brooding over her eggs until they hatch. It is the same image as conveyed at Luke 1:35.

1 Peter 3:20-21 "the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)"

1 John 3:1-3 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

so the water baptism is for repentance, and repentance means first of all to cleanse your faith of (the) misbeliefs/heresies

Blessings
(1) "The sacrament of Baptism is the gift of Christ's death and resurrection to each of us. In Baptism we are joined with Christ in His death and in His resurrection.
(2) in baptism the "old man" (sinful flesh) is put to death and, thereby our sins are remitted.

(1) Rom 6:3 (NKJV) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, (2) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

"The fruit of Baptism, its true fulfillment, is a new life, not simply a better, more moral or even more pious life, but a life ontologically different from the old one. And this difference, the very content of this newness, is that it is life in Christ..."
Of Water And Spirit, p.120, Fr. Alexander Schemann, ThD, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press​
 
NIV - References to baptism in the Holy Spirit. (Jesus is the Baptizer.)
Mat 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mar 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Luk 3:16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Jhn 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

Act 1:4-5 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Act 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tonguesfn as the Spirit enabled them.

Note: Baptize(d) "with" may also be translated baptize(d) "in".
Hi Jim Parker--My question about baptism was addressed to Lovethroughdove in response to a post addressed to me.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16
 
It is impossible for man. It is not impossible for God.
God is the cause (logos) of all being. (all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3 RSV)

but only if it is made, because if it is not made, then it is uncaused, therefore the matter at hand in John 1:3 is only the things that were made

That is incorrect. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void;"
That says God created the "formless and void" heavens and earth. They were not already "there."

it is written that the earth was without form and void, not the heaven - i did not say the heaven and the earth were not created

It is illogical that the universe would be eternal as is God.

why?!, why not uncaused universe as a boundless place/space containing/carrying all other uncaused things?!

Everything the exists in the physical universe is the result of a previous cause. The ultimate cause of the existence of the physical universe is the Logos. (John 1;3)

it is written that the man was made after the image and the likeness of God, and that he was taken/made from the ground/dust, and will return to the ground/dust, so isn't it possible that the universal creation were also made from some primordial substance that is even uncaused?!, the Logos is the seed of God, or in other words, God in His form of a seed/His seminal form

"and darkness was upon the face of the deep."
The word "deep" refers to waters which were a symbol for chaos in the ancient middle eastern literature.

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
The word translated "moved upon" (רָחַף עַל `rachaph 'al) conveys the image of a hen brooding over her eggs until they hatch. It is the same image as conveyed at Luke 1:35.

there is some truth here, but to be more correct, the "waters" are the souls and the primordial substance, which are uncaused

(1) "The sacrament of Baptism is the gift of Christ's death and resurrection to each of us. In Baptism we are joined with Christ in His death and in His resurrection.
(2) in baptism the "old man" (sinful flesh) is put to death and, thereby our sins are remitted.

(1) Rom 6:3 (NKJV) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, (2) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

"The fruit of Baptism, its true fulfillment, is a new life, not simply a better, more moral or even more pious life, but a life ontologically different from the old one. And this difference, the very content of this newness, is that it is life in Christ..."
Of Water And Spirit, p.120, Fr. Alexander Schemann, ThD, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press​

the important question is: has there been a full spiritual growth for no longer than about 3 years since the initial baptism and are there now fruits such as the fruits of Jesus and His true disciples were 2 millennia ago?!, because if the answer is no, then it is certain that the baptism has not gone properly and successfully, for the baptism is not just one ceremonial water baptism, but a process of spiritual growth that may last for months and years, strictly speaking, until the worshiper is fully (cap)able to do at least one of the works that Jesus and His true disciples did two millennia ago - this is the true baptism:

Luke 12:49-50 "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!"

so if the Lord Himself, Jesus, had to continue passing through the process of baptism, who are some human to think that a single ceremonial water baptism is enough?!

Hebrews 5:11-14 "we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Blessings
 
but only if it is made, because if it is not made, then it is uncaused, therefore the matter at hand in John 1:3 is only the things that were made
ANd what things are those?
"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (NKJV)
"All things" leaves no "uncaused" things or any matter (matter is a "thing") available with which to fabricate other things.

why?!, why not uncaused universe as a boundless place/space containing/carrying all other uncaused things?!
You may well imagine such a circumstance. It's what the ancient Greek philosophers imagined. But scripture specifically refutes that concept.

it is written that the man was made after the image and the likeness of God, and that he was taken/made from the ground/dust, and will return to the ground/dust, so isn't it possible that the universal creation were also made from some primordial substance that is even uncaused?!,

That you can imagine something does not make it possible.
If you are using the Bible as your source, it is not possible because John 1:3 specifically states that all things were created by the Logos.
The word "made" (Gr: γίνομαι translit: ginomai) has the meaning "to come into existence, begin to be, receive being"

the Logos is the seed of God, or in other words, God in His form of a seed/His seminal form
Where did you get that?
I don't believe that has any scriptural basis.

there is some truth here, but to be more correct, the "waters" are the souls and the primordial substance, which are uncaused
Not according to Christian theology or the Bible.

the important question is: has there been a full spiritual growth for no longer than about 3 years since the initial baptism and are there now fruits such as the fruits of Jesus and His true disciples were 2 millennia ago?!, because if the answer is no, then it is certain that the baptism has not gone properly and successfully, for the baptism is not just one ceremonial water baptism, but a process of spiritual growth that may last for months and years, strictly speaking, until the worshiper is fully (cap)able to do at least one of the works that Jesus and His true disciples did two millennia ago - this is the true baptism:

Baptism is not a process. It is an event. It is the uniting of the believer with Jesus in His death and resurrection.

Luke 12:49-50 "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!"

so if the Lord Himself, Jesus, had to continue passing through the process of baptism, who are some human to think that a single ceremonial water baptism is enough?!

Jesus did not pass through a process of baptism. The baptism to which He referred in that passage was his crucifixion.

Christian baptism is not a ceremonial washing.

Rom 6:3-7 (NASB)
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
We are united with Christ in His death and resurrection.
As the God/man Jesus Christ rose from the grave to eternal life, so does the believer rise from baptism to eternal life.
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.
The old self with it's fallen nature dies and is buried in baptism; the believer is raised to new life (born again) in Christ Jesus.

iakov the fool
 
ANd what things are those?
"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (NKJV)
"All things" leaves no "uncaused" things or any matter (matter is a "thing") available with which to fabricate other things.


You may well imagine such a circumstance. It's what the ancient Greek philosophers imagined. But scripture specifically refutes that concept.



That you can imagine something does not make it possible.
If you are using the Bible as your source, it is not possible because John 1:3 specifically states that all things were created by the Logos.
The word "made" (Gr: γίνομαι translit: ginomai) has the meaning "to come into existence, begin to be, receive being"


Where did you get that?
I don't believe that has any scriptural basis.


Not according to Christian theology or the Bible.



Baptism is not a process. It is an event. It is the uniting of the believer with Jesus in His death and resurrection.



Jesus did not pass through a process of baptism. The baptism to which He referred in that passage was his crucifixion.

Christian baptism is not a ceremonial washing.

Rom 6:3-7 (NASB)
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
We are united with Christ in His death and resurrection.
As the God/man Jesus Christ rose from the grave to eternal life, so does the believer rise from baptism to eternal life.
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.
The old self with it's fallen nature dies and is buried in baptism; the believer is raised to new life (born again) in Christ Jesus.

iakov the fool
Right on, Jim Parker
 
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