2 evidences that water baptism doesn't save anyone

[Jim Parker]

I don't care if your sect wants to practice works salvation or any number of other pseudo laws to be saved because I think you'll be saved by Grace through faith in Christ, regardless. What I would NOT do is practice potential eternal condemnation toward ALL believers who are not in your sect, which is an affront to both faith in Christ and to any ordinary believers good heart and conscience.

None of Jesus' commands are "pseudo laws." They are His eternal truth as is all scripture.
Nobodies practicing "potential eternal condemnation toward ALL believers who are not in your sect," (whatever you imagine that might be.) I certainly never said that all believers outside my "sect" are not saved. That is a figment of your imagination.
And I can only wonder how you come to the conclusion that the teaching of Christ is an affront to Christ.

Jesus said:

John 5:28-29 (NKJV)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

But you seem to be saying He didn't really mean it.

I can't show you what you don't want to see.

Be blessed.

 

[JCitoL]

the Apostles presented in the biblical book Acts had made ceremonial water baptism for the following reasons and in the following circumstances:

- to serve as an official certificate to the whole world (as for example the fast(ing) and the successfully passed trial of Jesus in the desert(Matt 4) served as an official witness to the whole universe that He is worthy to perform His mission of Lord/Christ and to act in the world as such), which was used mostly in the cases of spiritual servants in Christ such as Apostles, Deacons, Bishops, Elders, Preachers, etc.

- to give (more) confidence to worshipers that do not feel confident enough without it, also, it can give more grace(boost) to them for a good/better start in exercising faith
or
- in case the worshiper demands to receive it

in the last two cases it should be performed only if the worshiper(whoever they may be) is worthy enough to receive it, though the spiritual servant should also be worthy of it

another important thing is that it should be performed by true spiritual servants in Christ i.e. who really have the true Holy Spirit, otherwise there may be no full guarantee for the effect

also, the ceremonial water baptism may turn out to be vain(without effect) if the worshiper does not exercise the faith right enough, but commits too great spiritual iniquity

Blessings

 

[FreeGrace]

This question goes out to both you and FreeGrace. Where in Scripture is it explained that Jesus was speaking about natural birth with regard to "born of water" and not water baptism?

The reason "born of water" refers to physical birth is that v.6 is parallel to v.5 and serves to explain v.5 and it speaks of both physical and spiritual birth. Also, Nicodemus was clearly thinking about physical birth in v.4.

While it is possible that Jesus would speak of spiritual birth only in v.5 (symbol of regeneration view), and then talk of both physical and spiritual birth in v.6, it is more natural to take both verses as dealing with physical and spiritual birth.

The many verses that teach that salvation/eternal life is on the basis of faith, with nothing else mentioned, rules out the view of baptismal regeneration.

 

[JLB]

We disagree.

We disagree.

I do however agree with you that Jesus said... those who believe and are Baptized, shall be saved. Mark 16:16
I also agree with you that we need to obey the Gospel to be saved. Romans 10:9-10
JLB[/QUOTE]
:shock !!!!

Imagine that! Common ground!! :biggrin[/QUOTE]


Could you at least agree, that for a person to be born "again", they must first "be born"?



JLB

 

[JLB]

The reason "born of water" refers to physical birth is that v.6 is parallel to v.5 and serves to explain v.5 and it speaks of both physical and spiritual birth.

 

[JLB]

the Apostles presented in the biblical book Acts had made ceremonial water baptism for the following reasons and in the following circumstances:

- to serve as an official certificate to the whole world (as for example the fast(ing) and the successfully passed trial of Jesus in the desert(Matt 4) served as an official witness to the whole universe that He is worthy to perform His mission of Lord/Christ and to act in the world as such), which was used mostly in the cases of spiritual servants in Christ such as Apostles, Deacons, Bishops, Elders, Preachers, etc.

- to give (more) confidence to worshipers that do not feel confident enough without it, also, it can give more grace(boost) to them for a good/better start in exercising faith
or
- in case the worshiper demands to receive it

Was John's Baptism, from Heaven, or from men?

 

[WIP]

You cited the scriptures in your reply. John 3: vs. 5 & 12

Jesus was speaking of an earthly birth.

Correlated to 1 Cor. 15:43-49, vs 46 in particular.

And for the record, I am not opposed to water baptism EXCEPT if it's done as a law to gain salvation and even moreso coupled with the penalty of possible eternal damnation for not doing so, as that is a CLEAR violation of many scriptures such as:

John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

John 4:2
(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Cor. 1:
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

IN christian divisions, there is no such thing as "ONE" baptism. Every sect plays a different drum of doctrines, dogma and PENALTIES for not doing so according to their SECT's fine print. That is NOT anything resembling the above.

Galatians 3:
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Ah yes. Thanks. I failed to put two and two together.

 

[smaller]

None of Jesus' commands are "pseudo laws." They are His eternal truth as is all scripture.

There is only one "command" in the entire Bible for believers. Romans 13:8-10.

Nobodies practicing "potential eternal condemnation toward ALL believers who are not in your sect," (whatever you imagine that might be.)

I'd love to be able to expose' some of the various practices of condemnation of other believers within older orthodoxy. But perhaps the wisdom in not allowing an honest look at the subject is good. I don't think so but it's not my site.

I certainly never said that all believers outside my "sect" are not saved. That is a figment of your imagination.

You can spare me on that slant.

And I can only wonder how you come to the conclusion that the teaching of Christ is an affront to Christ.

Most of Protestantism left the sacerdotal constructs of the 2 major conflicting orthodox sects out of matters of conscience. Even within the 5 or 6 forms of older orthodoxy there is much dispute and myriads of heresy bombs that were set off long ago. They just can't seem to get it together, and time passed would probably show that this will continue. One of the earliest break offs from orthodoxy was over infant baptism.

Jesus said:
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

But you seem to be saying He didn't really mean it.

I believe every Word of God is fully true and fully applicable, in the now, for every believer. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

I can't show you what you don't want to see.

Be blessed.

I know exactly where most sects run:

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

I believe the Apostles made FULL allowance for every believer to follow their own conscience and prove their own work:

Galatians 6:4
But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

2 Corinthians 1:12
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

1 Timothy 1:5
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[Jim Parker]

the Apostles presented in the biblical book Acts had made ceremonial water baptism for the following reasons and in the following circumstances:

- to serve as an official certificate to the whole world (as for example the fast(ing) and the successfully passed trial of Jesus in the desert(Matt 4) served as an official witness to the whole universe that He is worthy to perform His mission of Lord/Christ and to act in the world as such), which was used mostly in the cases of spiritual servants in Christ such as Apostles, Deacons, Bishops, Elders, Preachers, etc.

- to give (more) confidence to worshipers that do not feel confident enough without it, also, it can give more grace(boost) to them for a good/better start in exercising faith
or
- in case the worshiper demands to receive it

in the last two cases it should be performed only if the worshiper(whoever they may be) is worthy enough to receive it, though the spiritual servant should also be worthy of it

another important thing is that it should be performed by true spiritual servants in Christ i.e. who really have the true Holy Spirit, otherwise there may be no full guarantee for the effect

also, the ceremonial water baptism may turn out to be vain(without effect) if the worshiper does not exercise the faith right enough, but commits too great spiritual iniquity

Blessings

Here's another perspective.

Baptism is a sacrament; that is: the decisive encounter of faith and the divine response to it, the fulfillment of the one by the other. The sacrament of Baptism is the gift of Christ's death and resurrection to each one of us.

"In Baptism, we are born again of water and the Spirit, and it is this birth which makes us open to the gift of the Holy Spirit, to our personal Pentecost. And, finally, it is the gift of the Holy Spirit that "opens" to us access to the Church, to Christ's table in His Kingdom. We are baptized so that we may receive the Holy Spirit; we receive the Holy Spirit so that we may become living members of the Body of Christ, growing within the church into the fullness of Christ's stature."
Of Water and Spirit, Fr. Alexander Schmemann, ThD p.116

 

[Jim Parker]

Could you at least agree, that for a person to be born "again", they must first "be born"?
JLB

HAH! Of course!

 

[JCitoL]

Was John's Baptism, from Heaven, or from men?

it was from Heaven

Blessings

 

[JCitoL]

Here's another perspective.

Baptism is a sacrament; that is: the decisive encounter of faith and the divine response to it, the fulfillment of the one by the other. The sacrament of Baptism is the gift of Christ's death and resurrection to each one of us.

"In Baptism, we are born again of water and the Spirit, and it is this birth which makes us open to the gift of the Holy Spirit, to our personal Pentecost. And, finally, it is the gift of the Holy Spirit that "opens" to us access to the Church, to Christ's table in His Kingdom. We are baptized so that we may receive the Holy Spirit; we receive the Holy Spirit so that we may become living members of the Body of Christ, growing within the church into the fullness of Christ's stature."
Of Water and Spirit, Fr. Alexander Schmemann, ThD p.116

the very baptism is the right exercise of faith according to the Gospel of the true Saints of Jesus, while the ceremonial baptism is its formal dedication

Blessings

 

[WIP]

I have removed a number of posts that began heading down a rabbit trail off topic. This thread is about Baptism and salvation not denominational differences and/or accusations. Let's keep things on topic please.

 

[Jim Parker]

the very baptism is the right exercise of faith according to the Gospel of the true Saints of Jesus, while the ceremonial baptism is its formal dedication

Blessings

I'm not familiar with the term; "ceremonial baptism."

 

[Webb]

The reason you are not familiar with the term "ceremonial baptism" is because its not in the Book.

 

[JCitoL]

I'm not familiar with the term; "ceremonial baptism."

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

1 Peter 3:20-21 "the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.",

1 Corinthians 1:17-18 "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.",

Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.",

Galatians 6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.",

Hebrews 8:4-5 "there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.",

Hebrews 9:8-10 "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.",

Hebrews 10:1-2 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins."

so the important is not the water by means of which we anyway wash our bodies regularly, but the righteousness/faithfulness, or what will the benefit of the ceremonial water baptism be if the baptized worshiper remains unrighteous and perseveres in wrongdoing to the end?!, the "water" of God is the invisible substance, with which He made the universal creation/creature, as well as the universal creation/creature itself in its normal condition, which is the pure one, so the important for us is to be spiritually cleansed and pure

Genesis 1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.",

2 Peter 3:5-6 "by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

Blessings

 

[Webb]

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

1 Peter 3:20-21 "the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.",

1 Corinthians 1:17-18 "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.",

Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.",

Galatians 6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.",

Hebrews 8:4-5 "there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.",

Hebrews 9:8-10 "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.",

Hebrews 10:1-2 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins."

so the important is not the water by means of which we anyway wash our bodies regularly, but the righteousness/faithfulness, or what will the benefit of the ceremonial water baptism be if the baptized worshiper remains unrighteous and perseveres in wrongdoing to the end?!, the "water" of God is the invisible substance, with which He made the universal creation/creature, as well as the universal creation/creature itself in its normal condition, which is the pure one, so the important for us is to be spiritually cleansed and pure

Genesis 1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.",

2 Peter 3:5-6 "by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

Blessings

The term or practice of "ceremony baptism" is not in the Bible.

 

[JLB]

The term or practice of "ceremony baptism" is not in the Bible.

Nor is the term "born again of water".


JLB

 

[Webb]

Jn.3:5. "---except a man be born of water--".

 

[smaller]

Jn.3:5. "---except a man be born of water--".

John 3:
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

This washing is not externally apparent, NOR is God forced into a corner to react to "external exercises" of the flesh. Anyone can go through the motions of an external water baptism and without first having been "washed" internally, by the Spirit, it would be meaningless in any case of exercise.

Some will claim that the external action is the means. But the reality is the washing is in internal, by faith, and that exists with or without the external exercise.

It is only the rules of man that have changed it to an external means at and in the hands of man, and NOT in the Hands of The Spirit of God Himself, working in them. Such rule makers will deny the internal washing exists without the external.