2 evidences that water baptism doesn't save anyone

[smaller]

Your perspective does not include angels who work on behalf of the saints.
JLB

They work Gods Work.

1 Corinthians 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

A legalist is always known by their bringing of wrath to those who have called upon Jesus to save them. They take precepts and turn them into LAWs with penalties and wrath.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The "baptism that saves us" is NOT the water that we may be dunked in. The "baptism that now saves us" (1 Pet 3:21) refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which does NOT involve water."

It would be grossly presumptuous to claim that this Baptism saves us, and therefore there is no need to be Baptized in water, since the days of Noah is a reference to the water that flooded the whole earth.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Are you saying that my comments are grossly presumptuous?

In fact, Peter actually says "this baptism now saves us". So it isn't at all presumptuous to claim what Peter claimed. The issue is which baptism Peter was talking about; which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is that baptism that saves us. Not the literal water that removes dirt from the flesh, just as Peter said.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

OK, quick quiz: when the Jews were baptized in the sea, who was immersed and DIED, and who stayed totally DRY and lived to tell about it? Looking forward to your answer.

Baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit at the new birth. [Into Moses] The Son

Baptism in water. [The Sea] The Father

Baptism with the Holy Spirit. [The Cloud] The Holy SpiritJLB

Here is a hint from the OT as to whom got immersed in literal water:
Deut 11:4 - and what He did to Egypt’s army, to its horses and its chariots, when He made the water of the Red Sea to engulf them while they were pursuing you, and the LORD completely destroyed them;

How did that work out for them?

Literal water does NOT save anyone. It will drown, but never save.

 

[WIP]

I'm seeing some rather personal pointed statements in some posts from both sides of this discussion that I think are out of line. There is no need to rip at each other and quite frankly when I see that happening I see someone seriously on the defensive and lashing out. This must stop. If I see it again, I will just remove the entire post without explanation. We can be nice and share our views without being rude.

 

[Jim Parker]

Why do you ignore these plain facts?

I believe your interpretation (what you believe to be "plan facts") is wrong. They seem to me to be contaminated by denominational traditions of man.

This (Ro 6:3-7) is speaking of the spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit, NOT water.

I find it astounding that you could come to such an conclusion.

And we're getting nowhere.

Have a nice day.

 

[Webb]

If there is an "or else" attached, i.e. to avoid eternal condemnation, then it's just another "law" to earn salvation. Works salvation by any other name, i.e. obedience or else, is still works salvation.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

But baptism is not a human work, but a work of God

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe your interpretation (what you believe to be "plan facts") is wrong. They seem to me to be contaminated by denominational traditions of man.

When I mentioned 'plain facts' I was referring to the people who were literally immersed in literal water during the flood of Noah AND when the Jews crossed the Red Sea. In both scenarios, it was those who were literally immersed in literal water who were destroyed. While those who stayed dry and away from literal water were delivered.

How are these not "plain facts"? Please advise.

I find it astounding that you could come to such an conclusion.

And we're getting nowhere.

My concluson is based on what Scripture says. In the flood and crossing of the Red Sea, everyone who was literally immersed in literal water were destroyed, while all those who stayed dry and out of the water (even though the Bible described them as being baptized) were delivered.

 

[FreeGrace]

But baptism is not a human work, but a work of God

Yes, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a work of God.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Water baptism, which is a ritual, is a work of man. It requires a person to immerse another person.

 

[smaller]

But baptism is not a human work, but a work of God

Is it really Gods Work to potentially condemn believers who have called upon Jesus to save them?

Works camp folk never believe this is the case. Salvation by faith in Christ through Grace is commonly held in the non-works sights.

If people turn baptism into a law of their own making, with potential eternal condemnation for not doing so as the "penalty" then they are practicing baptism as LEGALISM, working to "retain" their salvation by that work. Or by "obedience" to that law or however you care to term it.

Other believers will see that potential condemnation practice as a direct violation of what Jesus said, and rightfully so:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[Jim Parker]

When I mentioned 'plain facts' I was referring to the people who were literally immersed in literal water during the flood of Noah AND when the Jews crossed the Red Sea. In both scenarios, it was those who were literally immersed in literal water who were destroyed. While those who stayed dry and away from literal water were delivered.
How are these not "plain facts"? Please advise.

Those are not "plain facts" because you have intentionally misrepresented those events as being examples of Christian baptism. That renders your "plain facts" nonsense.

My concluson is based on what Scripture says. In the flood and crossing of the Red Sea, everyone who was literally immersed in literal water were destroyed, while all those who stayed dry and out of the water (even though the Bible described them as being baptized) were delivered.

Your "conclusion" is based on falsely and purposely equating the drowning of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea and the drowning of humanity in the flood as being the same thing as Christian baptism.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That's two separate events, Baptism IN WATER and receiving the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:36-38 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Did Philip drown the Ethiopian? No. HE baptized him IN WATER.

Act 10:44-48 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

So Peter baptized the household of Cornelius IN WATER after they were baptized in the Holy Spirit but he didn't drown them.

Act 19:1-6 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

In that passage the people were baptized IN WATER and then Paul laid hands on them and the were baptize3d in the Holy Spirit. That's two separate baptisms; one IN WATER and one in the Holy Spirit.

There are two Baptisms; on in water for the remission of sins (in which the old man is burred with Christ in His death IAW RO. 6) and on in the Holy Spirit.

All quotes are NKJV

 

[Jim Parker]

Is it really Gods Work to potentially condemn believers who have called upon Jesus to save them? Works camp folk never believe this is the case.

What are you talking about? Please clarify

If people turn baptism into a law of their own making, with potential eternal condemnation for not doing so as the "penalty" then they are practicing baptism as LEGALISM, working to "retain" their salvation by that work. Or by "obedience" to that law or however you care to term it.

It is obedience to Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who commanded his disciples to make disciples of all nations and to BAPTIZE them. No man made up that Command; it is directly from the lips of Jesus Christ.
Obedience to Jesus Christ your LORD is not "legalism."
And if you are not going to obey the LORD Jesus Christ then He is NOT your Lord.

Other believers will see that potential condemnation practice as a direct violation of what Jesus said,

What Jesus specifically said is :"...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (Mat 28:19-20 NIV) How can obedience to Jesus' command be a "direct violation of what Jesus said"? That doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[smaller]

What are you talking about? Please clarify

Every last one of you who potentially condemns believers to eternal hell over baptism are practicing legalism and salvation by works. That's really are there is to it.

Works are done to benefit "others" not save ourselves, as we are already saved upon belief.

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

God is NOT in need of "our works" in order to save us.

It is obedience to Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who commanded his disciples to make disciples of all nations and to BAPTIZE them. No man made up that Command; it is directly from the lips of Jesus Christ.

No, such just make it a TWO STEP process followed by a myriad of other works salvation postures. A good portion of "works salvation" camps can't even say or know if they are saved. They call it "reasonable assurances." Or "persevering or enduring to the end" before they know. I'd say they are just as close in that posture to an unbeliever as to a believer.

Obedience to Jesus Christ your LORD is not "legalism."

Any "form" of "do" or "do not" followed by a penalty is A LAW. Just because some N.T. believers take N.T. presentations and TURN them into laws of their own making doesn't make them legitimate in such sights.

And if you are not going to obey the LORD Jesus Christ then He is NOT your Lord.

As defined by who? Some other guy who sees only in part and only wants to hold up his pet stuff or condemn? LOL to that entire package. One may as well just carve their own idol instead.

What Jesus specifically said is :"...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (Mat 28:19-20 NIV) How can obedience to Jesus' command be a "direct violation of what Jesus said"? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Then I'd say you violated Jesus' First Command:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[Unnecessary dig. Be nice! WIP]

 

[FreeGrace]

Those are not "plain facts" because you have intentionally misrepresented those events as being examples of Christian baptism. That renders your "plain facts" nonsense.

Totally untrue. My point was that baptism is referenced in both cases: the flood of Noah and the Red Sea. I NEVER even hinted that these 2 "baptisms" were examples of Christian baptism.

Most Christians, it seems, make the mistake to think EVERY mention of baptism is referring to Christian baptism, which is simply not true.

Your "conclusion" is based on falsely and purposely equating the drowning of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea and the drowning of humanity in the flood as being the same thing as Christian baptism.

I absolutely did NOT do that. You have simply misunderstood my points.

There are those who believe that baptism saves, meaning immersion in literal water is what saves. I proved that idea wrong by citing 2 examples where those who were literally immersed in literal water were destroyed.

Why would anyone think that I was equating that with Christian baptism??

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That's two separate events, Baptism IN WATER and receiving the Holy Spirit.

The receiving of the Holy Spirit is what John the baptizer was referring to when He said that he baptized in water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:36-38 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Did Philip drown the Ethiopian? No. HE baptized him IN WATER.

Not to get saved.

Act 10:44-48 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

So Peter baptized the household of Cornelius IN WATER after they were baptized in the Holy Spirit but he didn't drown them.

Right. What is your point? And neither Cornelius nor any of his household were saved by being immersed in water.

Act 19:1-6 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

In that passage the people were baptized IN WATER and then Paul laid hands on them and the were baptize3d in the Holy Spirit. That's two separate baptisms; one IN WATER and one in the Holy Spirit.

The ONLY baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

There are two Baptisms; on in water for the remission of sins (in which the old man is burred with Christ in His death IAW RO. 6) and on in the Holy Spirit.

Just one question for you.

Do you claim that one is saved by being immersed in water?

 

[Jim Parker]

Just one question for you.
Do you claim that one is saved by being immersed in water?

You ask the kind of questions that the Pharisees and scribes and Sadducees asked Jesus: word traps.
I'm not falling for it.

No one is saved by taking a dunk in a swimming pool or falling out of a boat into the water.
Neither is anyone saved who refuses to obey Jesus.

Jesus said to be Baptized (in water). (Mat 28:19)
Jesus is my Lord.
I do my best to do what He says I should do.
If you claim to be a believer, you should do the same.

One of the things He said is: “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ " (John 3:3, 5-6 NKJV)

Paul said that, in Baptism, we are "baptized into Christ Jesus" and "were baptized into His death" (Ro 6:3 NKJV)
Then he said, "just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Ro 6:4 NKJV)
Dying and rising from death to new life in Christ through baptism is being "born again" of water.
That's what the Church has always taught beginning with the apostles.

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”


And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; ...

Jesus said that I need to be born again of water (baptism in water) and of the Spirit (baptism in the Holy Spirit.)
And I said: "Whatever you say, Lord."

The Church does the Baptism in water and Jesus does the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
My part is to say, "OK, Lord. Whatever you say."

You do as you like. You don't answer to me.
Good luck.

 

[turnorburn]

It need not be the church that does the baptizing any born again believer is fit for the purpose..

*edit: forgot this: We are not saved by water we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ..

 

[Jim Parker]

It need not be the church that does the baptizing any born again believer is fit for the purpose..

Yeah, in a pinch.

*edit: forgot this: We are not saved by water we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ..

We are, assuming that we do your best to obey Him as your Lord.
If we refuse or neglect to obey Him and do our own thing, then we're our own lords and we can't save us. :yes

Mat 7:24-27 (NKJV)
“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

 

[turnorburn]

i said nothing of the sort, i jumped in on this thread because its become a slug fest...

 

[Webb]

Totally untrue. My point was that baptism is referenced in both cases: the flood of Noah and the Red Sea. I NEVER even hinted that these 2 "baptisms" were examples of Christian baptism.

Most Christians, it seems, make the mistake to think EVERY mention of baptism is referring to Christian baptism, which is simply not true.


I absolutely did NOT do that. You have simply misunderstood my points.

There are those who believe that baptism saves, meaning immersion in literal water is what saves. I proved that idea wrong by citing 2 examples where those who were literally immersed in literal water were destroyed.

Why would anyone think that I was equating that with Christian baptism??


The receiving of the Holy Spirit is what John the baptizer was referring to when He said that he baptized in water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.


Not to get saved.


Right. What is your point? And neither Cornelius nor any of his household were saved by being immersed in water.


The ONLY baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.


Just one question for you.

Do you claim that one is saved by being immersed in water?

Totally untrue. My point was that baptism is referenced in both cases: the flood of Noah and the Red Sea. I NEVER even hinted that these 2 "baptisms" were examples of Christian baptism.

Most Christians, it seems, make the mistake to think EVERY mention of baptism is referring to Christian baptism, which is simply not true.


I absolutely did NOT do that. You have simply misunderstood my points.

There are those who believe that baptism saves, meaning immersion in literal water is what saves. I proved that idea wrong by citing 2 examples where those who were literally immersed in literal water were destroyed.

Why would anyone think that I was equating that with Christian baptism??


The receiving of the Holy Spirit is what John the baptizer was referring to when He said that he baptized in water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.


Not to get saved.


Right. What is your point? And neither Cornelius nor any of his household were saved by being immersed in water.


The ONLY baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.


Just one question for you.

Do you claim that one is saved by being immersed in water?

To answer your "one question". YES, if performed for ''THE REMISSION OF SINS" and to receive the ''GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT''. Acts 2:38
God bless,
W
Rom.16:16
TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OR JEW--WEBB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Just one question for you.
Do you claim that one is saved by being immersed in water?"

You ask the kind of questions that the Pharisees and scribes and Sadducees asked Jesus: word traps.

How is this a word trap? It is a very straight forward question. It seems you'd just rather not commit yourself to an answer.

I'm not falling for it.

The better word is dodging it.

No one is saved by taking a dunk in a swimming pool or falling out of a boat into the water.
Neither is anyone saved who refuses to obey Jesus.

Every single command, or what? Be specific. What commands must be obeyed in order to be saved. I'm sure there are verses if that is true.

Jesus said to be Baptized (in water). (Mat 28:19)

Did He say for salvation?

Jesus is my Lord.

He's mine as well.

I do my best to do what He says I should do.

So do I. And we both know that "doing our best" is never enough because salvation is by grace through faith. Not by doing our best.

Also consider that doing ones' best will vary between every individual, so how can that be any requirement for salvation?

If you claim to be a believer, you should do the same.

All believers should to that. But not to be saved.

Jesus said that I need to be born again of water (baptism in water) and of the Spirit (baptism in the Holy Spirit.)

No, He did NOT say that one needs to be born again of baptism in water. You're just adding words to fit your theology.

He DID say that in order to be born again, one must be born OF WATER and of the Spirit. The first "born" refers to physical birth. The second "born" refers to regeneration, which is baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And I said: "Whatever you say, Lord."

But you don't understand what He says.

The Church does the Baptism in water and Jesus does the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Those who believe today that one must be immersed in water to be saved is comparable to the very early church's view by the Pharisees that one must be circumcized to be saved.
Acts 15:5 - Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”

My part is to say, "OK, Lord. Whatever you say."

Don't forget your part is also to understand what He commands.

You do as you like. You don't answer to me.

No, I always try to do as He likes. And you are correct about not answering to you.

Good luck.

I don't believe in luck. I believe in the Lord.

 

[FreeGrace]

turnorburn said this:
"*edit: forgot this: We are not saved by water we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.."

Yeah, in a pinch.

We are, assuming that we do your best to obey Him as your Lord.

So, one mut obey Him as Lord before His blood saves?? That is definitely not biblical.

 

[Jim Parker]

So, one mut obey Him as Lord before His blood saves?? That is definitely not biblical.

Nobody said that "one mut obey Him as Lord before His blood saves." Jesus' death and resurrection (His "blood") has already saved all of mankind from the grave. It is a "done deal." All of mankind will be saved from death and resurrected from the grave immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:51-53)

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28-29 RSV)

Jesus said, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" (Luke 6:46 RSV)
and "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15 RSV)